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'New' Movie 10 Daizenshuu Sketch; New food for thought
Topic Started: Jun 9 2011, 05:29 AM (12,916 Views)
Super Gohan
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Cocoman_
Jun 10 2011, 01:00 AM
Super_Gohan
Jun 10 2011, 12:22 AM
Cocoman_
Jun 10 2011, 12:04 AM
Super_Gohan
Jun 9 2011, 11:51 PM
Cocoman_
Jun 9 2011, 11:41 PM
He could sense Ki in movie 8 i'm sure.
Didn't he comment on Goku's increase in power after Vegeta gave it to him? I think he also knew it wouldn't be enough to beat him in a straight up fight but Goku opened up the scar he got as a baby.

edit: I think if he could sense Ki it would add to him being the SSJ born with the natural ability to fight.


Sensing Ki was a special ability only Earthlings developed at first, and Broly never really had the free will to think for himself, because of Paragus' mind control device.

One of the biggest indicators of him not having the ability is when he is looking for Kid Trunks in the waterfall, relying solely on his eyes. If he could sense Ki, he would've found him easily.
But Trunks could have been suppressing his pl (unless he was in ssj i can't remember).
The thing is, if Broly was born with the ability to use his Ki, who can say he can't read pl's after he commented on Goku's power. And also humans were not the only ones who could read pl's. The Namekians could as well as Popo.


But even a PL of 1 is capable of being sensed, and it isn't like Broly was far away from Trunks, he was very near.

I could probably check Movie 8 again, although I don't really feel like it. By "Earthlings" I wasn't referring to just humans. And Ki sensing was shown to be a rare ability that must be learned, it wasn't dependent on how large your Ki was. Although for the Namekians it may have been a hereditary ability since they're more magical beings.
But in a way Broly is the only one of his kind in the dragonball universe.
He is the one Saiyan with the natural ability to fight from an early age giving him a 'legendary status' so he could easily be capable of sensing Ki.
My point is that there is no evidence that he couldn't sense power levels because in the Namek saga, Vegeta couldn't sense Krillen or Gohan because they suppressed their's.


I already mentioned that how much power you have has nothing to do with using this ability.

Freeza is a similar individual in that he possesses legendary power, can manipulate Ki in all kinds of attacks and purposes, and yet still has to rely on scouters. And he wasn't mind controlled either.

There is definitely evidence that he couldn't sense Ki, and logically he shouldn't be able to. In Namek, Vegeta was too far away from them to easily pinpoint their energy signals, the same couldn't be said for Broly.

Kamikaze Pyro
Jun 10 2011, 01:01 AM

He knew exactly where Trunks was in that vast area of waterfalls. Trunks just kept moving. If he couldn't sense ki, he would've been there all day looking through those waterfalls. He wasn't using just his eyes since there would've been no way for him to see Trunks through the water.

For more examples, watch Movie 8 when Broly senses Goku in the spaceship before even Vegeta does. He also senses where the Z-Fighters are a couple times during their city battle.


He didn't find Trunks, after he was done checking the waterfall, he left, regardless that Trunks was still there; meaning, he is relying on just his eyes. And it's only because that Trunks revealed himself, if he hadn't, Broly probably would've been there all day looking at that rate.

Well I looked over Movie 8 again, and found more reason to believe he couldn't sense their Ki. After Broly kills his father, he notices Goku walking towards him and is surprised that he is still alive. Now if he could sense Ki, he should've already known this, instead of just assuming he was dead:

Posted Image

When he senses Goku in the spaceship, that couldn't be due to the Ki sensory ability. Because his mind was currently being controlled by Paragus' device, he cannot think for himself. I think it's merely another sense he has that's exclusive to Goku, which is enough to overcome the devices' control.
Edited by Super Gohan, Jun 10 2011, 01:59 AM.
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Cocoman
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Badabing!

Super_Gohan
Jun 10 2011, 01:58 AM
Cocoman_
Jun 10 2011, 01:00 AM
Super_Gohan
Jun 10 2011, 12:22 AM
Cocoman_
Jun 10 2011, 12:04 AM
Super_Gohan
Jun 9 2011, 11:51 PM
Cocoman_
Jun 9 2011, 11:41 PM
He could sense Ki in movie 8 i'm sure.
Didn't he comment on Goku's increase in power after Vegeta gave it to him? I think he also knew it wouldn't be enough to beat him in a straight up fight but Goku opened up the scar he got as a baby.

edit: I think if he could sense Ki it would add to him being the SSJ born with the natural ability to fight.


Sensing Ki was a special ability only Earthlings developed at first, and Broly never really had the free will to think for himself, because of Paragus' mind control device.

One of the biggest indicators of him not having the ability is when he is looking for Kid Trunks in the waterfall, relying solely on his eyes. If he could sense Ki, he would've found him easily.
But Trunks could have been suppressing his pl (unless he was in ssj i can't remember).
The thing is, if Broly was born with the ability to use his Ki, who can say he can't read pl's after he commented on Goku's power. And also humans were not the only ones who could read pl's. The Namekians could as well as Popo.


But even a PL of 1 is capable of being sensed, and it isn't like Broly was far away from Trunks, he was very near.

I could probably check Movie 8 again, although I don't really feel like it. By "Earthlings" I wasn't referring to just humans. And Ki sensing was shown to be a rare ability that must be learned, it wasn't dependent on how large your Ki was. Although for the Namekians it may have been a hereditary ability since they're more magical beings.
But in a way Broly is the only one of his kind in the dragonball universe.
He is the one Saiyan with the natural ability to fight from an early age giving him a 'legendary status' so he could easily be capable of sensing Ki.
My point is that there is no evidence that he couldn't sense power levels because in the Namek saga, Vegeta couldn't sense Krillen or Gohan because they suppressed their's.


I already mentioned that how much power you have has nothing to do with using this ability.

Freeza is a similar individual in that he possesses legendary power, can manipulate Ki in all kinds of attacks and purposes, and yet still has to rely on scouters. And he wasn't mind controlled either.

There is definitely evidence that he couldn't sense Ki, and logically he shouldn't be able to. In Namek, Vegeta was too far away from them to easily pinpoint their energy signals, the same couldn't be said for Broly.

I never said it had anything to do with his power. Also at one point Gohan and Krillen were extremely close to Vegeta and the only reason Vegeta could sense someone's energy is because Dende was with them and he couldn't suppress his energy so my point still stands.
Again, how do you explain Broly noticing Goku's power increase? It's obvious he can read Ki.

edit: that pic can't be used as valid evidence because Broly could just be surprised that he was able to take so much. Its the same if a character like Goku says ' YOUR SILL ALIVE!'. It doesn't mean he doesn't know that he is still alive. It just means he is surprised that he with-stood so much.
Edited by Cocoman, Jun 10 2011, 02:19 AM.
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Quote:
 
He didn't find Trunks, after he was done checking the waterfall, he left, regardless that Trunks was still there; meaning, he is relying on just his eyes. And it's only because that Trunks revealed himself, if he hadn't, Broly probably would've been there all day looking at that rate.

If he was relying on his eyes, how in the world did he pinpoint Trunks' location in such a wide area that all looks the same? And how did he know where to reach into the waterfall after Trunks had evaded him the first time?
Quote:
 
Well I looked over Movie 8 again, and found more reason to believe he couldn't sense their Ki. After Broly kills his father, he notices Goku walking towards him and is surprised that he is still alive. Now if he could sense Ki, he should've already known this, instead of just assuming he was dead:

Posted Image

The same goes for all of the Z-Fighters when Cell came back from the dead, though. Nobody sensed him until he was already there. It couldn't be a matter of distance either, since Goku could sense him from the afterlife, and that's in another realm.
Quote:
 
When he senses Goku in the spaceship, that couldn't be due to the Ki sensory ability. Because his mind was currently being controlled by Paragus' device, he cannot think for himself. I think it's merely another sense he has that's exclusive to Goku, which is enough to overcome the devices' control.

Where are you getting that he can't think for himself? It seemed like Paragus only had control over Broly's power itself, not his entire being. You think Goku just emits some kind of aura that bypasses Paragus' mind control of Broly?

Broly also knew exactly where Goku and Trunks were in the city after his initial attack on them, and he knew exactly where Gohan was as well after Gohan had fled the scene. He knew where Paragus was, although that can be explained a couple different ways.

@Cocoman: In the Japanese dub, Broly just wonders what "kind of guy" Goku is after Vegeta donates his energy. He doesn't specify anything about energy like in the English dub, although later on he does comment on Goku absorbing their power. He wouldn't have the slightest clue Goku was absorbing their power unless he could sense Goku's power going up (this is me agreeing with you).

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Edited by Pyrus, Jun 10 2011, 02:34 AM.
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Cocoman
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Kamikaze Pyro
Jun 10 2011, 02:33 AM
Quote:
 
He didn't find Trunks, after he was done checking the waterfall, he left, regardless that Trunks was still there; meaning, he is relying on just his eyes. And it's only because that Trunks revealed himself, if he hadn't, Broly probably would've been there all day looking at that rate.

If he was relying on his eyes, how in the world did he pinpoint Trunks' location in such a wide area that all looks the same? And how did he know where to reach into the waterfall after Trunks had evaded him the first time?
Quote:
 
Well I looked over Movie 8 again, and found more reason to believe he couldn't sense their Ki. After Broly kills his father, he notices Goku walking towards him and is surprised that he is still alive. Now if he could sense Ki, he should've already known this, instead of just assuming he was dead:

Posted Image

The same goes for all of the Z-Fighters when Cell came back from the dead, though. Nobody sensed him until he was already there. It couldn't be a matter of distance either, since Goku could sense him from the afterlife, and that's in another realm.
Quote:
 
When he senses Goku in the spaceship, that couldn't be due to the Ki sensory ability. Because his mind was currently being controlled by Paragus' device, he cannot think for himself. I think it's merely another sense he has that's exclusive to Goku, which is enough to overcome the devices' control.


@Cocoman: In the Japanese dub, Broly just wonders what "kind of guy" Goku is after Vegeta donates his energy. He doesn't specify anything about energy like in the English dub, although later on he does comment on Goku absorbing their power. He wouldn't have the slightest clue Goku was absorbing their power unless he could sense Goku's power going up (this is me agreeing with you).

Posted Image
Yeah i commented on Broly's reaction to him absorbing his power in one of my earlier posts as well.
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Cocoman_
Jun 10 2011, 02:13 AM
I never said it had anything to do with his power. Also at one point Gohan and Krillen were extremely close to Vegeta and the only reason Vegeta could sense someone's energy is because Dende was with them and he couldn't suppress his energy so my point still stands.
Again, how do you explain Broly noticing Goku's power increase? It's obvious he can read Ki.

edit: that pic can't be used as valid evidence because Broly could just be surprised that he was able to take so much. Its the same if a character like Goku says ' YOUR SILL ALIVE!'. It doesn't mean he doesn't know that he is still alive. It just means he is surprised that he with-stood so much.


Dende's energy just happened to be the highest at the time. All lifeforms possess Ki, If Krillin and Gohan suppressed theirs to the level of an insect, he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Vegeta wasn't searching for their Ki in particular, he was only sensing Ki in general. The fact that he confused the energy for a fish, proves that he wasn't focusing on any one person's power because Dende and the fish obviously emit two separate energy signals.

He doesn't need to be able to sense Ki to figure that out. Perhaps Goku yelling at the top of his lungs for them to give him their power had something to do with it, unless Broly is deaf. It only became a matter of concern for him when Goku stopped his punch, Broly made it evident that he was aware Goku was taking energy from the small fries.

If he didn't think he were dead, he wouldn't have left the battle in the first place, he would've just continued torturing him more. He hates Goku more than anyone afterall.

Kamikaze Pyro
Jun 10 2011, 02:33 AM

If he was relying on his eyes, how in the world did he pinpoint Trunks' location in such a wide area that all looks the same? And how did he know where to reach into the waterfall after Trunks had evaded him the first time?


I doubt that that would've been the only place he looked, it was shown on screen because that's where Trunks was, if he was just roaming around looking for Trunks the whole time without anything interesting happening for 5-10 minutes it would make for a pretty boring movie. And did you also notice that all Trunks had to do was duck? If he was following him by his Ki, ducking shouldn't have stopped him from finding him, it's inexcusable.

Kamikaze Pyro
Jun 10 2011, 02:33 AM
The same goes for all of the Z-Fighters when Cell came back from the dead, though. Nobody sensed him until he was already there. It couldn't be a matter of distance either, since Goku could sense him from the afterlife, and that's in another realm.

Where are you getting that he can't think for himself? It seemed like Paragus only had control over Broly's power itself, not his entire being. You think Goku just emits some kind of aura that bypasses Paragus' mind control of Broly?

Broly also knew exactly where Goku and Trunks were in the city after his initial attack on them, and he knew exactly where Gohan was as well after Gohan had fled the scene. He knew where Paragus was, although that can be explained a couple different ways.


Well they were all preoccupied with the whole dramatic occurrence, while Goku and Kaio were specifically looking for Cell's Ki when noticing his soul wasn't with them.

If he only had control over the level of Broly's power, he couldn't have possibly stopped him from attacking Goku; that clearly wasn't his will at all. The explanation given in the movie by Paragus is that: "Broly's instincts as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakkarot's power, and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?" Goku is just the external stimuli.

It's not something he needs Ki sensing to do. He ambushes Goku and Trunks after Goku calls Gohan's name out loud, Gohan was already out in the open, and he was already done battling everyone by the time Paragus tried escaping in the space pod.

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So you're assuming a lot of this just happens off-screen then, huh?
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Kamikaze Pyro
Jun 10 2011, 04:27 AM
So you're assuming a lot of this just happens off-screen then, huh?


If you're referring to the waterfall scene, is it illogical to assume he'd keep looking for Trunks after he left Trunks' hiding spot or are you suggesting he just gave up right after?

I mean if Broly spent the entire scene frequently examining that one area where Trunks was in, then you could've had a point. But that wasn't the case, nor do I think it was the producers' intent to have Broly be able to sense their Ki when making that scene, there would've been no purpose to that hide-and-seek.
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Sam
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.

Broly can almost definitely sense chi. I debated this myself, a debate which I lost.

Also, the "Goku should have 3 bangs" argument for SSj2 was already debunked in my original post. Giji SSj was so far off from what an actual SSj is, but, it IS an actual SSj, just Toei's impersonation of one because they wanted Goku as a SSj for the movie. Likewise, they probably wanted Goku to be a SSj2 in this movie, so, they simply copied down Gohan's characteristics onto Goku. They've done it before and on a far grander scale.
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Necifix
Jun 10 2011, 05:39 AM

Also, the "Goku should have 3 bangs" argument for SSj2 was already debunked in my original post. Giji SSj was so far off from what an actual SSj is, but, it IS an actual SSj, just Toei's impersonation of one because they wanted Goku as a SSj for the movie. Likewise, they probably wanted Goku to be a SSj2 in this movie, so, they simply copied down Gohan's characteristics onto Goku. They've done it before and on a far grander scale.


It's not the same. Super Saiyan Goku in Movie 4 was well established as such, it's the title of the movie even. You're claim is rooted from your own speculation, and the fact is, Toei left Goku's presence in Movie 10 entirely up to the viewer, there's no official word that he was even there physically contributing to the Kamehameha in the first place. So there really isn't any incentive for them to want Goku to be a SSj2 in the movie.

The movie was released in March 12, 1994, Goku's first complete appearance as a SSJ2 in the manga was February 28, 1994. Since the alleged SSJ2 scene was only present for one frame, if they really wanted to change his hair to match how it was depicted in the manga, they had about 2 weeks to do so... they clearly did not.
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Sam
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.

You realize the movie was probably already marketed for release by the time SSj2 Goku was unveiled, right?
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Necifix
Jun 10 2011, 08:24 AM
You realize the movie was probably already marketed for release by the time SSj2 Goku was unveiled, right?


If you've seen the actual movie previews that were shown during the end of the original broadcast episodes, you'll notice there are clips that don't make the final cut.

Such changes aren't unheard of, the one they did for the episode where Goku fights the Ginyu Force in hell is just one drastic example of how they changed his SSj hair to black at the very last moment, despite the preview for the episode showing him as a blatant SSj. And that was an entire scene, the instance you're referring to was only a single frame.

Goku was also briefly shown as a SSj2 in the manga for the first time when he makes Yakon burst, which appeared on December 27, 1993; Movie 10's release was still a long ways off. If they were to reference his SSj2 appearance there, they wouldn't have given Goku any bangs at all. The Daizenshuu page you posted was released when the manga was already finished, and yet the art still doesn't depict him with his SSj2 hair. If it were their true intent to portray him as SSj2 there, there is really no more excuses by then.
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Sam
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.

When he went SSj2 against Yakon, it was a massive burst and one could not see his features.

Yes, they re-colored Goku. So what? That's quite different than completely re-drawing him and re-doing the scene.
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

We saw the facial features though, he had no bangs when he went SSJ 2 there.
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There is something to be said about ki, as a saiyan broly WOULD have a natural affinity to RECOGNIZING power, and since the majority of the z fighter universe is all a bunch of psychic with super powers its pretty clear that anyone with a high level of power can "recognize" power, vegeta didnt take very long at all to realize this ability existed, and as soon as he did? by the time he got to namek he had dang near mastered it. Laughing at this unexpected development while smashing his scouter. That was epic. Broly is already a super saiyan, born one really, his ability to "recognize" power is inbred. Vegeta had to analyze gokus movements when he fought nappa to gauge his strength. But when goku hit that special level just below ssj he could easily read minds and such.

What im getting at is that broly could have used this Latent and undeveloped telepathic sense to catch on to a power as great as gokus, and be intimidated, and broly sure was intimidated. I think that even we as humans would be able to latently psychically sense someone whos power is as great as gokus, hell, even in real life you can analyze someones ability to fight and the depth of their power. Its such a natural deterrent most fighters are actually trained to ignore it, as it helps them develop an innate sense of fear. This is the reason for it, by movie 10 its fair to say that broly had an idea where trunks was in the general area, no way he could pinpoint him, but he knew he was in there somewhere, plus brolys got some sharp eyes to boot. All im saying, its not hard for a saiyan to learn a new technique just by hearing how it works. Vegeta jumped on board just reaching out and trying to sense other peoples power fields. Krillin was also very skilled at this technique, i think he could sense energy as good as the best of them, meaning goku and piccolo.
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Cocoman
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Badabing!

Also for all we know, Broly sensing energy could have been how him and Paragus navigated from one planet to another and found Vegeta etc as Kid Buu did.
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