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Something I just realized.
Topic Started: Mar 12 2011, 03:35 AM (3,015 Views)
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I think it looks really complicated, and I'll have to actually apply it before I have a true opinion on it.
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Saberoph
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Ah, it's not really complicated, it seems that way until you actually try to use it, just as long as you keep the numbers where you can easily use them...at least for me it seems that way.

I just thought about something then, that means Gohan lost so much power, that for GT Base Goku to be equal to his Z SS3, Gohan would have had to decrease to the point where he's below that level. And judging by how easily Base Goku was beating up on Bebi Gohan...there would have to be a pretty decent gap.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Saberoph
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Quote:
 
Saberoph, your statement contains a disputed point, kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, without evidence backing it up. I do not agree that Supreme Kai is stronger than Piccolo.

Quote:
 
Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: Piccolo vs. East Kaioshin.
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”

Quote:
 
As for the quote, our dimensions are too different refers to status, not power. In fact, Supreme Kai does live in Otherworld, some may say an alternate dimension. Piccolo was guardian of Earth...Supreme Kai is guardian of the universe, quite a difference.

But not in power.

Then explain this one.

Vol 12, 36.
Context: Tien talking about Goku.
Tien: Then...This "Super Saiyan" That Goku's become...Is the most powerful being in the universe...
...It's as if he's in a completely different world now.

But I guess he means since Goku's on Namek.

But here's this comment too.

Vol 13,55.
Context: Tien talks about Goku as he faces No.19.
Tien: Astounding...!!...what power...
I never knew what being a Super Saiyan meant...
It's as if he's in a different dimension from us...

But I guess he means the distance from where Tien is to Goku in the air.

But the first and last quote both Dimensions...hmm, both times the word is used, and talk about power...How can that be? Unless power is what they're talking about.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Saberoph
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8253864&t=8275174
Ah, it's not really complicated, it seems that way until you actually try to use it, just as long as you keep the numbers where you can easily use them...at least for me it seems that way.

I just thought about something then, that means Gohan lost so much power, that for GT Base Goku to be equal to his Z SS3, Gohan would have had to decrease to the point where he's below that level. And judging by how easily Base Goku was beating up on Bebi Gohan...there would have to be a pretty decent gap.

It's not necessarily that Gohan got weaker, but Goku just got a *****load stronger.
Saberoph
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8254070&t=8275174

Then explain this one.

Vol 12, 36.
Context: Tien talking about Goku.
Tien: Then...This "Super Saiyan" That Goku's become...Is the most powerful being in the universe...
...It's as if he's in a completely different world now.

But I guess he means since Goku's on Namek.

But here's this comment too.

Vol 13,55.
Context: Tien talks about Goku as he faces No.19.
Tien: Astounding...!!...what power...
I never knew what being a Super Saiyan meant...
It's as if he's in a different dimension from us...

But I guess he means the distance from where Tien is to Goku in the air.

But the first and last quote both Dimensions...hmm, both times the word is used, and talk about power...How can that be? Unless power is what they're talking about.

Like I said, Toriyama's NEVER used that phrase to describe status, only power. Kaioshin's case is no different just because he actually IS a god this time.

As for this quote...

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: Piccolo vs. East Kaioshin.
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”

That can also be interpreted as "He used to be this planet's god, so he should know how uberly powerful I am [or should be, lol]."
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Saberoph
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It can be, but it wont be seen that way.
Quote:
 
It's not necessarily that Gohan got weaker, but Goku just got a *****load stronger.

But for Goku's Base to be equal to his SS3 Boo arc, Gohan would have to have gotten weaker, but it doesn't have to be too much...even if very little.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Well, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but you could also go with the anime continuity theory, and then you wouldn't have to make Gohan weaker at all, and Goku's growth wouldn't be as staggering.
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Saberoph
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But the problem with that is, in the Super 17 arc, Gohan got slapped around by Rild. And even in the Anime continuity Goku's Base would still be equal to Boo arc Base, and Base Goku did better than what Gohan did. So Gohan would have to be weaker.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Saberoph
Mar 18 2011, 11:19 PM
But the problem with that is, in the Super 17 arc, Gohan got slapped around by Rild. And even in the Anime continuity Goku's Base would still be equal to Boo arc Base, and Base Goku did better than what Gohan did. So Gohan would have to be weaker.
Goku's Base would be a bit stronger than his SSj3 Z self, which by anime logic would be a lot stronger than Ultimate Gohan. By anime logic:

Base GT Goku > Rild > SSj3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan

Wild, I know. :lol: But yeah.
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Saberoph
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Quote:
 
Base GT Goku > Rild > SSj3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan

But I thought Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SS3 Goku.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Saberoph
Mar 18 2011, 11:59 PM
Quote:
 
Base GT Goku > Rild > SSj3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan

But I thought Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SS3 Goku.
Not according to the anime.
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Saberoph
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As crazy as it sounds, when it comes to Z I go by the Manga, and with GT I go by the Japanese script.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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FPSSJGohan
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Kamikaze Pyro
Mar 18 2011, 11:06 PM
Saberoph
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8253864&t=8275174
Ah, it's not really complicated, it seems that way until you actually try to use it, just as long as you keep the numbers where you can easily use them...at least for me it seems that way.

I just thought about something then, that means Gohan lost so much power, that for GT Base Goku to be equal to his Z SS3, Gohan would have had to decrease to the point where he's below that level. And judging by how easily Base Goku was beating up on Bebi Gohan...there would have to be a pretty decent gap.

It's not necessarily that Gohan got weaker, but Goku just got a *****load stronger.
Saberoph
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8254070&t=8275174

Then explain this one.

Vol 12, 36.
Context: Tien talking about Goku.
Tien: Then...This "Super Saiyan" That Goku's become...Is the most powerful being in the universe...
...It's as if he's in a completely different world now.

But I guess he means since Goku's on Namek.

But here's this comment too.

Vol 13,55.
Context: Tien talks about Goku as he faces No.19.
Tien: Astounding...!!...what power...
I never knew what being a Super Saiyan meant...
It's as if he's in a different dimension from us...

But I guess he means the distance from where Tien is to Goku in the air.

But the first and last quote both Dimensions...hmm, both times the word is used, and talk about power...How can that be? Unless power is what they're talking about.

Like I said, Toriyama's NEVER used that phrase to describe status, only power. Kaioshin's case is no different just because he actually IS a god this time.

As for this quote...

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: Piccolo vs. East Kaioshin.
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”

That can also be interpreted as "He used to be this planet's god, so he should know how uberly powerful I am [or should be, lol]."
Because obviously Tien and Piccolo would mean the same thing by dimensions/worlds in figurative terms. Mmhmm. Who says that they talk the same? In Piccolo's case, there's actually a literal meaning. The Supreme Kai is quite literally in an alternate dimension, and his status in authoritative power is indeed greater than Piccolo's.

There's also the fact that the Supreme Kai was scared by freaking Yakon and even Pui Pui, while Piccolo was considering the idea of taking on initial perfect cell, and considered himself able to help save Gohan from cell, or at least to try.

And you want to argue author's intent? Fine then. Akira Toriyama was planning for Piccolo to go majin and fight Goku. Therefore, he intended Piccolo to be powerful enough to contend with at least an mssj Goku.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 19 2011, 03:37 PM.
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FPSSJGohan
Mar 19 2011, 03:35 PM
Because obviously Tien and Piccolo would mean the same thing by dimensions/worlds in figurative terms. Mmhmm. Who says that they talk the same? In Piccolo's case, there's actually a literal meaning. The Supreme Kai is quite literally in an alternate dimension, and his status in authoritative power is indeed greater than Piccolo's.

There's also the fact that the Supreme Kai was scared by freaking Yakon and even Pui Pui, while Piccolo was considering the idea of taking on initial perfect cell, and considered himself able to help save Gohan from cell, or at least to try.

And you want to argue author's intent? Fine then. Akira Toriyama was planning for Piccolo to go majin and fight Goku. Therefore, he intended Piccolo to be powerful enough to contend with at least an mssj Goku.
You're not considering everything that's being laid out. I've shown you that that's how Toriyama displays strength differences with various quotes and not from the just Tenshinhan and Piccolo, the author also expresses difference that way too. And also, if you're still stuck on this status stuff, answer why Piccolo wouldn't obey Kaioshin's request.

Kaioshin wasn't afraid of PuiPui. He was worried for Vegeta's sake. He had no idea how powerful Vegeta really was. He didn't want any energy going to Boo. In the case of Yakon, he actually was scared. He suggested teaming up to defeat Yakon, unlike against PuiPui, and the Daizenshuu confirms this. There's nothing here that proves Piccolo is stronger. Piccolo wasn't considering taking on initial Perfect Cell. He knew he was no match, even when he wanted to help Gohan against Cell. Using that, does that mean he's stronger than everyone else just because nobody else wanted to help? It just means Piccolo was worried for Gohan. He didn't try helping against Super Perfect Cell but Vegeta did. What's that mean?

For your last point, no, that's a terrible rumor with nothing supporting it. Not one single shred of evidence except some video game that has no bearing on this debate. Toriyama had Vegeta in mind the whole time. This is like that rumor that Toriyama had Tenshinhan originally going into the ship with them and fighting Dabra instead of Gohan. It's unfounded and untrue.
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 19 2011, 04:09 PM.
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Saberoph
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Quote:
 
Because obviously Tien and Piccolo would mean the same thing by dimensions/worlds in figurative terms. Mmhmm. Who says that they talk the same? In Piccolo's case, there's actually a literal meaning. The Supreme Kai is quite literally in an alternate dimension, and his status in authoritative power is indeed greater than Piccolo's.

So, Tien says Worlds then said Dimensions and it's something different?
Now you're just making up excuses to get out of admitting your theory is proven wrong.
Quote:
 
There's also the fact that the Supreme Kai was scared by freaking Yakon and even Pui Pui, while Piccolo was considering the idea of taking on initial perfect cell, and considered himself able to help save Gohan from cell, or at least to try.

East Kaioshin was only afraid of Yakon and Debura, In the Manga The Namek Never attacks SPC.

So once again...Manga>Anime.
Quote:
 
And you want to argue author's intent? Fine then. Akira Toriyama was planning for Piccolo to go majin and fight Goku. Therefore, he intended Piccolo to be powerful enough to contend with at least an mssj Goku.

It's a lame rumor, without actual facts, that's all it will be.
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 19 2011, 07:20 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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FPSSJGohan
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What you don't seem to get is that Tien and Piccolo are not the same people, and they'd not speak using the same figure of speeches. Prove that Tien saying worlds metaphorically would mean the same as Piccolo saying dimensions metaphorically.

Saying that our dimension are too far apart is not a common figure of speech. Saying that it's like he's/she's in another dimension is, but from a figure of speech standpoint the former isn't really used that often. Why would Piccolo use such an awkward figure of speech?


Conclusion: Tien and Piccolo are not the same person, and the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Piccolo was speaking figuratively when a literal meaning is just as accurate.


In addition, Tien was using words like "as if". Piccolo is speaking in more absolute terms, he literally states that their dimensions are too far apart, not that it feels as if it is. This implies a more literal meaning, ie that the Supreme Kai is the technical ruler of the universe and Piccolo at his authoritative peak was guardian of Earth.

As for Piccolo becoming majin, I'll admit that there's pretty much no evidence supporting that, so sorry about that.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 20 2011, 02:43 AM.
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