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Something I just realized.
Topic Started: Mar 12 2011, 03:35 AM (3,016 Views)
FPSSJGohan
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Saberoph
Mar 16 2011, 01:16 AM
But your saying he progresses at a faster rate than a saiyan does, and he doesn't it's been proven over and over that the saiyans progress at a much faster rate than what The Namek does, and Goku and Goku far surpassed The Namek in less than a year, and that was after The Namek went in the rosat for a year, then when Vegeta and Trunks went back in, they progressed even more than what they did the first time, and more what The Namek did in his one year. If your saying The Namek progresses faster than a Saiyan, if you weren't saying that, my bad.

I will say that, that first rosat trip Vegeta and Trunks' Base would be weaker than post rosat Namek, but their second trip took their SS and Base far beyond what The Namek could do.
No I'm not, don't put words in my mouth. Piccolo started off close to 100 times stronger than all of the saiyans' bases, all he has to do to keep that advantage is to even progress half as fast as the saiyans. The burden would be on the saiyans to progress so fast that they outpace a 100x advantage that Piccolo has over their bases.

Oops, you already preemptively apologized.

However, it hasn't been, as you claimed proven over and over that saiyans progress faster than Piccolo. The reason why the saiyans surpassed Piccolo in the ROSAT is because they discovered new transformations! That's right; Vegeta passed Piccolo because he discovered assj. Goku passed Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo because he discovered mssj.

In raw power without transformations, Piccolo is never again surpassed by base saiyans in DBZ after the Trunks saga. Piccolo got his uber big boost in the Android saga and then fused with Kami, so he's already above all base saiyans. Then, he goes into the ROSAT and comes out on par with an initial perfect cell.

Basically, Piccolo can content with ASSJ Vegeta, so he naturally can one shot base Vegeta, because the gap between assj and base is freaking huge.





What you seem to forget, Saberoph, is that PIccolo fused with kami and got boosted beyond an ssj. What does this mean? Piccolo before the ROSAT is the strongest Z warrior, and is close to 100 times stronger than the base saiyans. That means that Vegeta would have to progress close to 100 time faster than Piccolo to overcome his advantage.







Here's the big question: is this is even possible? Has it ever happened in DBZ?

Goku vs Piccolo in the saiyan saga in terms of training

Both start off at 460, Goku being slightly stronger.

After a year, Goku's at 9000 in base, about a 20 times boost, while Piccolo is 3500, about a 9 times boost.

Goku increased about 2 times faster. This is despite Goku having superior training, ie King Kai's training.









So let's think about it: Goku with superior training can only outpace Piccolo by about 2 times.


How can Goku with equal, not superior, trianing outpace Piccolo by 100 times?
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 16 2011, 08:54 PM.
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Saberoph
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Before we go anywhere further.
Quote:
 
Oops, you already preemptively apologized.

When did the words I'm Sorry, or I Apologize come out of my mouth, when did those EXACT words come into my posts? It didn't your once again accusing me of something I didn't say.

Also again before we go any further.
Quote:
 
There is no plot hole. Android 17 > Yakon. Android 17 was above an ssj. Yakon was quite a bit weaker than buu saga base Goku, who was not above an ssj.

Yet you conveniently ignore and dismiss this comment.
Quote:
 
Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin though, so he couldn't be weaker or around No.17. It wouldn't fit with what we see and what's clarified in D7.

But I know why you do, because it kills you whole argument, so you act like it was never said, so you can keep bashing other peoples opinions and bringing topics into this one...you are so desperate.
Quote:
 
I wouldn't say Vegeta surpassed Piccolo in just Base at that point. Vegeta and Goku have seven years to do that, while Gohan would have to be already stronger since he only got weaker.

Quote:
 
Wait, hang on. So Gohan's Base would be higher than The Namek, but Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be until during their 7 year training?
That's what I'm saying. If you believe the Base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo during the Boo arc, only Base Gohan has to be stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta trained and have room to grow while Gohan only got weaker.

Quote:
 
Ahh...gotcha, somewhere I got confused about the whole Base>The Namek thing.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I admitted my confusion, yet you still attack what I say. Quit attacking me, I swear I will report you if you do not back off and quit attacking me.

I have had enough of this, you go into every Topic I currently post in and attack everything I say, and I am tired of it! Do Not Attack What I Say Again!

If you wanna discuss something that's in another Topic, then leave it there, quit dragging it into another just to get me going again.

And just so you don't act like I didn't post those quotes, I'll do it again.

Quote:
 
There is no plot hole. Android 17 > Yakon. Android 17 was above an ssj. Yakon was quite a bit weaker than buu saga base Goku, who was not above an ssj.

Yet you conveniently ignore and dismiss this comment.
Quote:
 
Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin though, so he couldn't be weaker or around No.17. It wouldn't fit with what we see and what's clarified in D7.
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 17 2011, 05:54 PM.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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I wouldn't use my quotes as support, man. They're generally ignored or brushed off...
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Saberoph
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Kamikaze Pyro
Mar 17 2011, 08:14 AM
I wouldn't use my quotes as support, man. They're generally ignored or brushed off...
I know, and that's not right. Especially when the Daizenshuu is brought up.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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Saberoph
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And just so there are no excuses, here's the quote from the Daizenshuu.
Quote:
 
Called a demonic beast, he's a monster which even Kaioshin is afraid of. He prefers pitch-black darkness, and so can see even in the dark. Though he tried to eat Goku and co., his most favorite meal is light.


http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.php?m=03&id=character_v-z#yakon

Also in the Manga their physical exchange was very brief, but when they did they were evenly matched. And since Z characters were brought up, then the Manga comes into the argument, and it's Mangs>Anime every time.

So Z #17<Yakon=Goku.

And since East Kaioshin is stronger than The Namek, and Yakon is stronger than East Kaioshin. But I guess for some reason The Namek quit training during the 7 year gap huh? which is completely out of character.

So going by the Daizenshuu.

Goku=Yakon>East Kaioshin>The Namek.

Now as the the topic, and I mean the REAL topic, not the argument that should not have been brought in here.

GT's power is all over the place, and for all we know GT #17 could very well be stronger than his Z counterpart, now remember in the Japanese script nothing is ever said about either 17's to be running at full power. And since there isn't a GT Manga, but since the Japanese version was released nearly 7 years prior to the American release, that means Japanese script>American script. And to keep me from being accused of making it up, I'll even give the link to the episode. It's episode 44, 17 Times 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragon_Ball_GT_episodes

And to put the icing on the cake (Coughing* Cliche), if someone wants a link to a subbed episode, you can PM me, since we know if I drop the link it's against the rules.
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 17 2011, 03:29 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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lunar2
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well, just one thing to say about yakon vs. goku. they weren't even at all. yakon couldn't touch goku, even with extending claws. goku didn't need to transform vs yakon, he just didn't want to risk ANY injury, no matter how slight.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Saberoph
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Well, that still makes my Base Saiyans stronger than The Namek argument even stronger, which would make Goten and Trunks post rosat even stronger.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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FPSSJGohan
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Saberoph, your statement contains a disputed point, kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, without evidence backing it up. I do not agree that Supreme Kai is stronger than Piccolo.
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FPSSJGohan
Mar 17 2011, 08:05 PM
Saberoph, your statement contains a disputed point, kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, without evidence backing it up. I do not agree that Supreme Kai is stronger than Piccolo.
You haven't read any of my responses to this point, have you? It's hardly debatable.
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 17 2011, 08:35 PM.
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Saberoph
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FPSSJGohan
Mar 17 2011, 08:05 PM
Saberoph, your statement contains a disputed point, kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, without evidence backing it up. I do not agree that Supreme Kai is stronger than Piccolo.
Why do you ignore him...it sounds like you don't want to admit defeat.

You would rather bash peoples comments and opinions, and when all the evidence is laid at your feet, you still act like nothing is said.

Seriously, you need to respect Everybody's comments, or just not post at all, posting in forums are suppose to be fun...but you take that away.

Gohan, you want proof, then here.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: Piccolo vs. East Kaioshin.
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 17 2011, 09:00 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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FPSSJGohan
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Aw, stop it with the ad hominems. Who's "he"? I've been addressing when I can pretty much everybody that voices an opinion here, and pryo I have indeed responded to many of your posts.

As for the quote, our dimensions are too different refers to status, not power. In fact, Supreme Kai does live in Otherworld, some may say an alternate dimension. Piccolo was guardian of Earth...Supreme Kai is guardian of the universe, quite a difference.

But not in power.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 17 2011, 10:14 PM.
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Saberoph
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Don't you mean your double standard of everything you say makes sense, but when someone says something against what you believe it doesn't and therefore can't be true. Now don't you dare back out of this one, you damn well know you do it all the time.

You know, the topics you now post in were once peaceful until you started posting in them.
Quote:
 
As for the quote, our dimensions are too different refers to status, not power. In fact, Supreme Kai does live in Otherworld, some may say an alternate dimension. Piccolo was guardian of Earth...Supreme Kai is guardian of the universe, quite a difference.

But not in power.

Just to let you know, that's AT way of saying someone is stronger.


Edited by Saberoph, Mar 18 2011, 03:35 AM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Saberoph
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But I'm satisfied. But just so you know, that was not intended to be a flame...if I flamed you, you would know it. Because I would curse you out, and it wouldn't include the word damn...Just thought I should let you know.

But lets try this once again please everybody, back on Topic:

There's a chance that GT #17 could very well be equal to Hell Fighter 17, the only problem with that is, a MSS Vegeta would be able to defeat him.

However to Super 17's defense, he did absorb Gohan's Kamehameha, which would put his pl over MSS Vegeta IMO. What I did with Gohan in GT was, I believe that his Ultimate power gets locked away again from not training, just not all of it. And it is locked away at a slower rate then his 7 years of peace decrease.

If you were to chop it down to 7 years, could be anywhere from 10% and up. Bet let me put it in a chart and explain it...it's easier for me. But in this case I'll use 10%.

10 Divided by 7=1.42857143.

Then you add 42857143. My reasoning for that is, it makes it easier then to deal with a mess.

Then the added number would be 1.34, then you multiply that by the years from Goku killing Boo and the end of Z, which in this case is 10 years.

Then the number from 10 is 13% Yes I left out the 4, it's easier that way.

You take whatever number you have Ultimate Gohan as and do times .13, then subtract the number you get from your Ultimate Gohan number. Then save it.

Then take your 1.34 and multiply that by 5, since it was 5 years from Z to GT. That number for this instance would be 6.7 and you could round it up to be just 7...that's what I did.

Then you take your new Ultimate Gohan number, and do the same as before, times .07 then subtract the two new numbers, and there you go...you have GT Gohan's Base.

Now I am not saying any of this is fact, but it made the most sense to me. And I'm not saying I believe I use 10%, I was just using that as an example. Also this may sound like it's too much effort, but not really, it's easier than it sounds.


Oh yea...excuse my Double Post.
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 18 2011, 12:39 AM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
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FPSSJGohan
Mar 17 2011, 10:11 PM
Aw, stop it with the ad hominems. Who's "he"? I've been addressing when I can pretty much everybody that voices an opinion here, and pryo I have indeed responded to many of your posts.

As for the quote, our dimensions are too different refers to status, not power. In fact, Supreme Kai does live in Otherworld, some may say an alternate dimension. Piccolo was guardian of Earth...Supreme Kai is guardian of the universe, quite a difference.

But not in power.
Kaioshin's status mean jack. Never has Toriyama had anybody talk about "different dimensions" pertaining to status; only was it about power. I've provided quotes proving that. It's no different in Kaioshin's case just because he actually is a god this time around. Toriyama displays great strength differences that way and D7 confirms it.

But if you still choose to disregard all of that as just status, then why did Piccolo outright refuse to fight Kaioshin when Kaioshin asked Piccolo to enjoy their fight? If God (speaking generally and hypothetically here) asked you to enjoy a game of hoops, would you deny his request just because you felt unworthy? Of course not. That would be blatant disrespect in my opinion, especially if you don't say you feel unworthy to God's face, like in the case of Piccolo and Kaioshin. Piccolo just said "I forfeit" after Kaioshin requested him to enjoy their fight, without saying why or anything else. If Piccolo respected Kaioshin so much, as you're saying he did, he would've done as Kaioshin asked instead of disobeying.
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 18 2011, 02:29 AM.
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Saberoph
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The Namek was weaker than East Kaioshin, all evidence points to that and is backed up by both books.

So Pyro, what do you think about my whole loss per year idea?

Of course I don't think it's 10%, but an example is a good place to start.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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