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Something I just realized.
Topic Started: Mar 12 2011, 03:35 AM (3,017 Views)
FPSSJGohan
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Saberoph
Mar 15 2011, 10:49 PM
It makes none, that's what I'm saying and I was talking about GT Goku not Z, I don;t know what the hell his problem is, but he's pissing a lot of people off.
I started that argument, and I was talking about Z Goku, so you're the one who's at fault for misunderstanding. I started that argument, I used Z Goku as evidence, you misinterpreted it as GT Goku.

I know that GT Goku is supposed to be stronger than Cell and Freiza combined by a lot, that's not the point. The point is that buu saga base Goku < Freiza Saga SSJ Goku, and that Goku > Yakon in base.

So the misunderstanding's on you...again. That's ok, but don't go on blaming the other side.




BTW, sorry for the double post.
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Saberoph
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Quote:
 
1. He scares Piccolo. Some have interpreted this to mean that he's > Piccolo, putting him on par with initial perfect cell.

True.
Quote:
 
2. He can apparently one shot Freiza, so he's in the hundreds of millions at least.
3. He's scared of Yakon, so he's weaker than base Goku.

True, True.
Quote:
 
4. He's scared of a one handed energy blast from MSSJ Goku as if it'll kill him, so he's within oneshot territory for MSSJ Goku.

So True. I wonder if he p*ssed his pants or not. :lol:
Quote:
 
5. He does better against Fat Buu than SSJ2 Gohan does.

Gohan was MSS not SS2, but Babidi wanted him to suffer...he had a personal grudge against him.
Quote:
 
6. He manages to paralyze SSJ2 Gohan.

His physical strength has nothing to do with that.
Quote:
 
7. He can't take out the Z sword bu SSJ Gohan can.

East Kaioshin was weaker than the Saiyans all the way around.
Quote:
 
8. He using the potara earings with kibito is implied to be weaker than an ssj2, and far weaker than base Vegetto.

Well East Kaioshin was strong in his own mind, but was still weak compared to the Saiyans, and I'm pretty sure Kibit was weaker tham him, because he wasn't a bodyguard.
Quote:
 
Based on this, he's either in the high hundreds of millions or below 100 million. He might have underestimated Freiza; otherwise, he'd know how powerful the Z warriors would have to be to have defeated Freiza. He's weaker than base Goku it seems, who I maintain to be weaker than Namek SSJ Goku (using a 100x+ mssj multiplier, this makes sense). It's inconsistent.

Frieza was 120,000,000. So East Kaioshin was stronger than that, and stronger than The Namek, so he was stronger, but once again weak compared to the Saiyans.
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FPSSJGohan
Mar 15 2011, 10:53 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Mar 15 2011, 10:42 PM
Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin yet weaker than No.17? That doesn't make sense.
Kaioshin is all over the place with his supposed power level.

1. He scares Piccolo. Some have interpreted this to mean that he's > Piccolo, putting him on par with initial perfect cell.
2. He can apparently one shot Freiza, so he's in the hundreds of millions at least.
3. He's scared of Yakon, so he's weaker than base Goku.
4. He's scared of a one handed energy blast from MSSJ Goku as if it'll kill him, so he's within oneshot territory for MSSJ Goku.
5. He does better against Fat Buu than SSJ2 Gohan does.
6. He manages to paralyze SSJ2 Gohan.
7. He can't take out the Z sword bu SSJ Gohan can.
8. He using the potara earings with kibito is implied to be weaker than an ssj2, and far weaker than base Vegetto.

Based on this, he's either in the high hundreds of millions or below 100 million. He might have underestimated Freiza; otherwise, he'd know how powerful the Z warriors would have to be to have defeated Freiza. He's weaker than base Goku it seems, who I maintain to be weaker than Namek SSJ Goku (using a 100x+ mssj multiplier, this makes sense). It's inconsistent.
I don't see anything inconsistent with it. All of those point to him being stronger than Initial Perfect Cell yet weaker than the Mastered Super Saiyans. Him doing better than Gohan against Boo was due to his psychic powers, and him holding Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was also due to his psychic powers. Kibitoshin being weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta/Goku is not stated, and it can be interpreted as him not being a fighter which would have a negative effect during the battle as he could be clumsy or absorbed or anything else, while someone like Vegeta would be much more savvy to that stuff.

Besides, Gohan was not Super Saiyan 2 against Boo so his feat there isn't really impressive.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (which I think I am), but didn't Kaioshin know a Super Saiyan defeated Freeza, not which one? If he did know which one or assumed that all three Saiyans had power surpassing Freeza, then for him to suggest Vegeta be careful or they all team up against Yakon only means those two henchmen were also stronger than Freeza.
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FPSSJGohan
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Piccolo pre ROSAT is about 400 million; he can take on either Android 18 or Android 17 in an even fight and is at the moment the most powerful Z warrior. He goes into the ROSAT for a full year. Piccolo is a serious guy, he can level up fast (ie Android saga), and he says that he'll actually do better on his own. He comes out.

You think that Gotenks in the ROSAT surpassed SSJ Gotenks, which would mean that he multiplied his base over 50 times in 7.5 days, the amount of time Goten and Trunks have in the time chamber. Piccolo, almost certainly more productive than Goten and Trunks, had about 50 times longer than that in the time chamber.

Based on that, Piccolo is pretty darn powerful after exiting the ROSAT. You really don't give him enough credit. He enters the time chamber about 80 times stronger than base Vegeta, and comes out weaker?



Sorry, maybe I'm getting off topic again, but it's really a key to this argument. You:

1. Don't give Piccolo enough credit; he was the strongest Z warrior pre ROSAT, so post ROSAT he couldn't have suddenly gotten weaker than the saiyans' bases, that's stupid.

2. You overestimate saiyan bases. Sorry, but you don't understand how much a 50 times multiplier is. If Piccolo can compete with post first ROSAT assj Vegeta, which he can, then Piccolo is over 50 times stronger than base. Any character that can even compete with an ssj is by default far stronger than said ssj's base.


What does this mean for this topic? Yakon is weaker than android 17. Android 17 took on 2 ssjs, Piccolo and the humans and easily won without really trying. Goku saw Vegeta and Trunks come out of the ROSAT, and wasn't in awe of their uber power.


The reason why the saiyans passed Piccolo is that they kept on discovering new uber transformations, not because their bases were so powerful.

Sorry for the semi topic derailment, but it's hard to argue Yakon vs android 17 without getting into Piccolo's PL and saiyan base levels.
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Yakon was stronger than Kaioshin though, so he couldn't be weaker or around No.17. It wouldn't fit with what we see and what's clarified in D7.
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Saberoph
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Gohan, The Namek trained with a SS for three years, of course he would progress like that. He didn't progress like that when training for the Saiyans, the argument of him gaining the same amount of power isn't consistent with what actually happens.
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FPSSJGohan
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Saberoph
Mar 15 2011, 11:47 PM
Gohan, The Namek trained with a SS for three years, of course he would progress like that. He didn't progress like that when training for the Saiyans, the argument of him gaining the same amount of power isn't consistent with what actually happens.
I addressed this; Piccolo felt that he would be better off alone than with mssj Goku, mssj Gohan or assj Vegeta or Trunks.
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Saberoph
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He did yes, but if he increased like you say he would, then he would be able to damage a Cell Jr. Because your suggesting he increased at the same rate he did when he trained with a SS. But it was proven in the past that he can't increase like that on his own.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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FPSSJGohan
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Saberoph
Mar 16 2011, 12:49 AM
He did yes, but if he increased like you say he would, then he would be able to damage a Cell Jr. Because your suggesting he increased at the same rate he did when he trained with a SS. But it was proven in the past that he can't increase like that on his own.
Not necessarily. Cell jrs are equal to a suppressed perfect cell, and I am only suggesting cell games Piccolo to be slightly above a first ROSAT ASSJ Vegeta, who couldn't even phase initial perfect cell with a kick to the head. Piccolo can't take on cell jrs and win, but he is way, way, way stronger than base saiyans.
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But your saying he progresses at a faster rate than a saiyan does, and he doesn't it's been proven over and over that the saiyans progress at a much faster rate than what The Namek does, and Goku and Goku far surpassed The Namek in less than a year, and that was after The Namek went in the rosat for a year, then when Vegeta and Trunks went back in, they progressed even more than what they did the first time, and more what The Namek did in his one year. If your saying The Namek progresses faster than a Saiyan, if you weren't saying that, my bad.

I will say that, that first rosat trip Vegeta and Trunks' Base would be weaker than post rosat Namek, but their second trip took their SS and Base far beyond what The Namek could do.
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I wouldn't say Vegeta surpassed Piccolo in just Base at that point. Vegeta and Goku have seven years to do that, while Gohan would have to be already stronger since he only got weaker.
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Saberoph
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Wait, hang on. So Gohan's Base would be higher than The Namek, but Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be until during their 7 year training?
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
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Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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goku would be higher, or at least as high, while gohan was definitely stronger already. vegeta didn't even get close to piccolo in base at the cell games.
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the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Saberoph
Mar 16 2011, 01:25 AM
Wait, hang on. So Gohan's Base would be higher than The Namek, but Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be until during their 7 year training?
That's what I'm saying. If you believe the Base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo during the Boo arc, only Base Gohan has to be stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta trained and have room to grow while Gohan only got weaker.
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Ahh...gotcha, somewhere I got confused about the whole Base>The Namek thing.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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