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Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten
Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,118 Views)
FPSSJGohan Mar 13 2011, 09:43 PM Post #106
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lunar2
Mar 13 2011, 09:38 PM
ok, your point? ssj2 majin vegeta, who is far stronger than goten and runks, ko'd them? what about the fact, that you just love to bring up, that trunks was able to hit vegeta at all? and please, don't reference the anime or movies again, because i can do that too, and say that ssj3 goku > kid buu > buuhan > ultimate gohan > super buu > ssj3 goku. you know what, just to do this one more time, since i remembered i had these already posted on another forum, i'll go get the gotenks references. i don't think anything else is there, and i'm not looking it up, again, but i'll give you that much.
Stop backtracking. Your claim was that Trunks and Goten were somehow near Goku in power. However, SSJ Trunks took a long time to land a hit on Vegeta, who had been training hard and was likely exhausted. He got hit in the face, and it made a minor scratch. Vegeta hit back, and Trunks was knocked back and had a bloody nose.

I never claimed that Trunks couldn't hit Vegeta, so that's a strawman. You're the one to claim that Goten was near Goku. However, Trunks, who is stronger than Goten, was far weaker than Vegeta, who was substantially weaker than Goku.

Goku > Vegeta >>> Trunks >= Goten.
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lunar2 Mar 13 2011, 09:49 PM Post #107
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 i never said they were close to goku at that point, are you insane? i have clearly said on multiple occasions that goten and trunks were about equal to GOHAN, not GOKU. yeah, they were stronger than cell games goku, but not even close to buu arc goku.

all at mssj

z sword gohan ~ rosat trunks ~ rosat goten >goku > vegeta <=> cell games gohan > gohan ~ trunks ~ goten > cell games goku.

where have i ever said anything different?
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Saberoph Mar 13 2011, 09:55 PM Post #108
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 Facts...ok.

Spoiler: click to toggle



Fact 1. We see Base Goten throw a rock to MSS Gohan, nothing much but just wait...


Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 2. MSS Gohan has to dodge a rock thrown by a Base Goten, that proves Goten's Base is VERY high.


Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 3. MSS Gohan is afraid of getting hurt, so he takes the line back even further, which once again proves Goten's crazy strength.


Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 3. Look at Gohan's right eyes, he's squinting...which, oh what's that, proves SS Goten to be on Gohan's level.


Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 4. Wow they look equal to me, which once again proves Goten is on Gohan's level.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 5. Goten's punches hurt, but didn't stomp him, which proves Goten is as strong as Gohan...again.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 6. Base Gohan cannot pull the Zeta sword.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 7. Gohan has to go MSS to release the Zeta sword, which means Gohan's Base is no where NEAR strong enough to train with it.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 8. Once again proves Gohan's Base isn't no where near strong enough to train with the Zeta sword.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Yea I put that in for comical reasons...when I first saw that, I cracked up.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 9. Trunks is stronger than Goten...who very close to Gohan's level of power. Yes it is a fanslation scan, but I have read this very page in the Manga, and this is VERY close to it.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 10. You can see MSS Gohan can hold the Zeta sword up very easily in MSS, which he struggled to swing it before.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 11. Base Gohan can jump around and swing the Zeta sword, something he couldn't do before in Base or in MSS.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 12. Base Gohan can hold the Zeta sword over his head without falling down, again something he couldn't do before in Base or in MSS.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 13. Base Goku can barely swing the Zeta sword, which is less than what current Base Gohan can do. So already Base Gohan is already a good deal stronger than Base Goku. Which means Base Goku iin Boo arc couldn't be THAT much stronger than Cell Games Base Gohan. Not going by my numbers either, the Mangs proves it, but I am going by the Manga with my numbers. Also if you look, Base Gohan can fly with the Zeta sword...oh wait he couldn't do that before either.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Fact 14. Look at that, Base Gohan can throw the Zeta sword around like it's a lightweight object, which once again shows how far the gap between Base Gohan and Base Goku. Oh wait, I once again didn't go by my numbers, but went by the Manga.

No more scans.

Fact 15. In the Cell arc. Gohan went in the rosat with Goku, when Gohan went in he was no where near a match for the Artificial Humans, but when he came out he was a MSS and was strong enough without rage to toy around with semi perfect Cell and was stronger than Goku. Which means Gohan had to become a SS, control it, Master SS and his power level constantly increasing the whole time to close that kind of gap.

It' completely logical for Goten and Trunks to have an increase very similar to Gohan's with their short time in the rosat. So once again going by DBZ logic, Trunks and Goten in the rosat would have the same kind of increase in a week, what Gohan did with a sword in one day.
Edited by Saberoph, Mar 13 2011, 10:31 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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lunar2 Mar 13 2011, 10:04 PM Post #109
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 a lot of your images aren't showing up. i see you found the same site i did, though.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Saberoph Mar 13 2011, 10:12 PM Post #110
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 It's pretty much the closest you get to reading the actual Viz Manga...gonna try to fix them.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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lunar2 Mar 13 2011, 10:18 PM Post #111
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 here's gotenks and gohan for you.

gotenks had 7.5 days, and surpassed his ssj power in base:
ch. 477 pg.10-11 goku telling piccolo that he could not beat fat buu, but that the kids could.
ch 481 pg. 11 base gotenks thinks he can beat buu, while piccolo says flat out he can't. by this we know that gotenks is stronger than ssj2 majin vegeta, but weaker than ssj3 goku.
ch. 488 pg 13 piccolo flat out says that gotenks cannot beat super buu. this is after they've done the ssj fusion, mind you.
ch 490 pg.3 even knowing that super buu is stronger than ssj gotenks was, goten and trunks think that base gotenks can fight super buu evenly. now, the kids are a bit cocky, but notice they don't think they can beat super buu in base, just that they can fight him. therefore, base gotenks post rosat > ssj gotenks pre rosat.
ch. 490 pg 11 gotenks fuses in base, and piccolo, who belives ssj3 goku couldn't beat fat buu, and knows that super buu is superior to fat buu in every way, and that ssj gotenks stood no chance against super buu pre rosat, admits that base gotenks post rosat might have a chance against super buu.

as for gohan, he had just over a day, and far surpassed his old ssj power, in base:
ch. 473 pg 5 gohan can barely lift the z sword while ssj.
ch. 475 pg 7 gohan training as ssj. paused while sensing ssj3 goku.
ch 477 pg 12 gohan training in base. he is clumsy with the z sword, lunging as he swings it, but he is swinging it. his base is already approaching his old ssj level, after only a couple of hours.
ch. 479 pg 3-5 gohan and goku both swing the sword in base, with just about the same control over it. base goku is about as powerful as ssj gohan was at the beginning, as is gohan.
ch. 479 pg 6. 24 hours have passed.
ch. 479 pg 12 gohan now easily swings the sword one handed. he has far surpassed his old ssj power, while in base, in just over 1 day
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Destiny Mar 13 2011, 10:31 PM Post #112
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Man I'm laughing at this thread. The quirky remarks are too much. Don't mind me I'll be lurking some more.
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Saberoph Mar 13 2011, 10:34 PM Post #113
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 It's kool, and kool lunar, fixed them too.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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+ Pyrus Mar 13 2011, 11:22 PM Post #114
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 Since the topic deals with Goten, I thought I'd post this little tidbit from D4. It helps those who believe the kids mastered Super Saiyan and were extremely powerful naturally.
Daizenshuu 4
 
Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 13 2011, 11:23 PM.
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Saberoph Mar 13 2011, 11:26 PM Post #115
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 So, basicly half saiyans are naturally extremely powerful, but don't want to fight?
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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+ Pyrus Mar 13 2011, 11:27 PM Post #116
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 They're fine with fighting, but they don't really have the drive to train and everything constantly like full-blooded Saiyans do.
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Saberoph Mar 13 2011, 11:29 PM Post #117
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 Ahh...gotcha.

That makes sense, and if you notice that drive is only there, when someone or something is there to push them to train.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
Posted Image
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lunar2 Mar 14 2011, 02:03 AM Post #118
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 one problem with that. for consistency's sake, goten and trunks had to be born with their tails, although of course they could have been REMOVED at birth.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Pyrus Mar 14 2011, 02:04 AM Post #119
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lunar2
Mar 14 2011, 02:03 AM
one problem with that. for consistency's sake, goten and trunks had to be born with their tails, although of course they could have been REMOVED at birth.
What's inconsistent about it? The fact that Gohan was born with a tail?
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lunar2 Mar 14 2011, 02:10 AM Post #120
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 yeah. if gohan was born with a tail, that means the gene for the tail is dominant, and only one copy is needed to pass on the trait. every pure saiyan ever shown had a tail, though, so that means they they all actually had 2 copies, or else their would have been SOME tailless saiyans. so goku and vegeta both had 2 copies of the gene, and there is a 100% chance that goten and trunks have the gene, which we already know is dominant, so therefore they had to have been born with tails that were removed as babies.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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