lunar2

Mar 13 2011, 08:10 PM

because fpssjgohan is once again trying to come in and say that everything that makes anybody besides goku, vegeta and piccolo stronger than raditz is a complete gag, and everybody else is an idiot for taking the manga seriously.

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You do know that Goku's Boo arc Base wasn't THAT far ahead of Gohan's Cell Games Base.

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Going by DBZ logic it makes perfect sense.

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What your doing is arguing against DBZ logic, and trying to bring real world logic into DBZ, it doesn't work that way. In DBZ people can fly and shoot energy blasts, that's not possible in the real world.

If you leave out real world logic in DBZ, then everything they do makes sense.

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1. You're basically suggesting that mssj trades away power for stamina, and that it doesn't need that power anymore. What? If my math is right, 35 to 50 is about a 42 percent difference, based off of your 35 multiplier theory. 42 percent power different in DBZ is huge, enough for a one sided curbstomp. As shown in the SSJ Goku vs Freiza fight, SSJ's can hold their form for quite a long time, even Goku who had just turned SSJ for the first time. As show in numerous fights with even less than a 42 percent difference, the more powerful one of the 42 percent difference could wtf pwn the lower one without much difficulty at all.

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2. The argument about Goku being stronger than Piccolo in base is not only incorrect, it's a red herring. We're talking about Goten here, not Goku

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3. Common sense that post Z sword training Gohan is stronger than buu saga Goku? ROFL are you kidding me?

That's complete conjecture. There's no evidence at all how powerful post Z sword and pre Elder Kai training Gohan is. None. No showings, no feats, and no statements other than a very vague zomg you've improved a lot. Gohan wasn't serious about being confident to face buu, that was an attempt out of desperation to try to make up for the situation. Goku's casual skepticism of this shows it.

The fact is that a few hours of training with a heavy sword does not make up for 7 years of not training or Goku training in the Otherworld for 7 years, likely with weights even heavier than the Z sword and in intensive gravity, against powerful sparring partners like Pikkon.

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4. Common sense that post ROSAT Goten is stronger than buu saga Goku? You got to be kidding me. Seriously.

For one, that's complete conjecture. Complete conjecture. You clearly know this, given that you've come up with the evasive claim that it's common sense, without explaining your reasoning at all. We never see post ROSAT Goten or Trunks fighting non fused, so your point is completely unsupported.

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Have you ever noticed that so many DBZ theories are complete speculation? Just random numbers and statements you pull out of your *****. Not just you, but many people. I'll be honest and say that my power level lists also contain some speculation, but I wouldn't argue for them if I don't have evidence backing them up.

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You're saying that at the end of the buu saga, Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku. ROFL. If so, then why was base Vegetto stronger than freaking ssj3 Gotenks by a lot? Sure, you could argue potara fusion and rival boosts all you want, but a rival boost is doubtful to boost them hundreds of times; Old Kai stated it as unimportant and an offhand remark, and Goku was not aware of the power of the potara fusion. He was going off of what he knew; fusion, and expecting him and Vegeta fusing to be powerful enough to beat buu. In buu's stomach, he suggests fusion excitedly.

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Where did you get that buu saga Goku is only slightly more powerful than cell saga Gohan? Again, your *****?

FPSSJGohan

Mar 13 2011, 08:39 PM

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You do know that Goku's Boo arc Base wasn't THAT far ahead of Gohan's Cell Games Base.

Of course, you can substantiate this claim using evidence, right?

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Going by DBZ logic it makes perfect sense.

Logic from an OOU perspective never changes. How characters in DBZ think logically does, but we aren't trying to think like them. We're trying to quantify them OOU.

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What your doing is arguing against DBZ logic, and trying to bring real world logic into DBZ, it doesn't work that way. In DBZ people can fly and shoot energy blasts, that's not possible in the real world.

If you leave out real world logic in DBZ, then everything they do makes sense.

Have you ever noticed that much of what you're saying is completely made up numbers and claims? Where did you get the 35 times multiplier from? Your *****? Forgive me if I'm being rude but you seemed to have thought in your chair and thought 'zomg 35 sounds like a cool number'. Where did you get that number from?

Where did you get that buu saga Goku is only slightly more powerful than cell saga Gohan? Again, your *****?

BTW, sorry for the double post. EDIT: haha, I just found out that you asked me about it after this edit. Such a coincidence.

@Nusu

I take wushu/kung fu.

We don't know how much difficulty SSJ Gohan had wielding the sword, only that he could hold it properly. Other than that, we don't know if he could have made those wild swings. Again, Goku wasn't used to the sword. He was barely able to lift it up, but a few seconds later could swing it around. Are you going to claim that Goku got several times stronger in a few panels? Of course not! He just got used to it, and possibly powered up/used more of his ki to wield it.

FPSSJGohan

Mar 13 2011, 08:39 PM

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You do know that Goku's Boo arc Base wasn't THAT far ahead of Gohan's Cell Games Base.

Of course, you can substantiate this claim using evidence, right?

Quote:

 

Going by DBZ logic it makes perfect sense.

Logic from an OOU perspective never changes. How characters in DBZ think logically does, but we aren't trying to think like them. We're trying to quantify them OOU.

Quote:

 

What your doing is arguing against DBZ logic, and trying to bring real world logic into DBZ, it doesn't work that way. In DBZ people can fly and shoot energy blasts, that's not possible in the real world.

If you leave out real world logic in DBZ, then everything they do makes sense.

Have you ever noticed that much of what you're saying is completely made up numbers and claims? Where did you get the 35 times multiplier from? Your *****? Forgive me if I'm being rude but you seemed to have thought in your chair and thought 'zomg 35 sounds like a cool number'. Where did you get that number from?

Where did you get that buu saga Goku is only slightly more powerful than cell saga Gohan? Again, your *****?

BTW, sorry for the double post. EDIT: haha, I just found out that you asked me about it after this edit. Such a coincidence.

@Nusu

I take wushu/kung fu.

We don't know how much difficulty SSJ Gohan had wielding the sword, only that he could hold it properly. Other than that, we don't know if he could have made those wild swings. Again, Goku wasn't used to the sword. He was barely able to lift it up, but a few seconds later could swing it around. Are you going to claim that Goku got several times stronger in a few panels? Of course not! He just got used to it, and possibly powered up/used more of his ki to wield it.

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simple, really. the fusion dance has a static power boost, because goku knew that the kids, when fused, would be enough to beat buu.

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therefore, gotenks's power is some multiple of the kids' power. gotenks passed up his ssj power, and therefore so did the kids.

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we don't need to saee them fight, because we saw gotenks fight. therefore, base goten (post) > ssj goten (pre).

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since goten and gohan were basically even before their respective power ups,

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and base goku ~ ssj gohan, as seen with the z sword, we know that base goku also ~ ssj goten, pre rosat. but we also know, by gotenks, that base goten (post) > ssj goten (pre), therefore base goten (post) > base goku ~ ssj goten (pre).

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I'm not getting into that debate in this topic.

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Goten was close to Gohan's strength, who was around Cell Games Goku's strength. But I suppose their sparring was a gag too, wasn't it?

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Goku's an idiot for questioning if Gohan could beat Boo then. He should've just kept his mouth shut if he knew Gohan was still too weak to do anything, especially since Gohan doesn't have another transformation past Super Saiyan 3. And why are we including filler characters here?

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Other than "I don't like this," "this is ridiculous," and "they're kids and Trunks couldn't move in 150G!" you've done nothing to prove you're not the one with the conjecture here. I already gave my reasoning. Gotenks surpassed his previous Super Saiyan power in Base, so I don't see why the kids wouldn't either. Goten was already close to Gohan in Base, so him surpassing that his old Super Saiyan power in Base would put him a lot closer to Goku already, if not surpass him.

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Then why don't we as the DBZ community just use your power level as the official, all-encompassing DBZ community list? It seems yours is the best out of everybody's since you have evidence backing yours up and nobody else does.

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We actually don't know how powerful Base Vegetto was. He transformed right away. He could've been weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks for all we know.

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It comes from Piccolo thinking that "perhaps" Majin Vegeta - equal to Goku - was stronger than Kid Gohan. "Perhaps." But personally, I find his claim contradicted and invalidated by Goku and Vegeta's own opinions on the matter.

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ok, now who's getting desparate? you've been backed into a corner so bad that half your argument is filler and movies. have you ever even read the manga? i know you've been shown multiple times that gotenks passed his ssj.

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i know you've been told that base vegito never fought buu.

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you know that old kai told goku that the effect of potara was greater than fusion.

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i'm not going to waste my time proving to you, once again, like i've done multiple times with multiple people, some of them more than once, that gotenks passed his ssj,

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that gohan passed goku with the z sword,

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that every saiyan in the buu arc was stronger than piccolo in base.

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these have all been proven.

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the path of the logic has been laid out multiple times, with references, and you just refuse to follow it, saying that half of it's gag scenes, and the other half people who have no reason to hold back were holding back. give me one reason why gohan was holding back against goten. you can't, because he wouldn't. gohan wasn't trained like that, so why would he train goten like that?