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| Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,122 Views) | |
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Mar 8 2011, 05:33 AM Post #46 |
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How is this 3 pages? Goten easily. Pre or Post Rosat. |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 8 2011, 10:31 PM Post #47 |
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I suppose then that Goten >>>>>>> Gohan? Buu saga Gohan pre mystic is weaker than cell games Gohan, you're suggesting that the saiyans multiplied their base by a hundred fold literally while Gohan regressed, meaning that Goten could casually one shot Gohan in his base form. Estimated power levels: Cell games Gohan base: 30,000,000 Cell games Piccolo: 1,400,000,000 Cell games Gohan mssj: 3,000,000,000 Buu saga Gohan base: 26,000,000 Buu saga Piccolo: 2,000,000,000 Buu saga Gohan mssj: 2,600,000 Piccolo got stronger from cell to buu, Gohan got weaker. Gohan in his base form never surpassed Piccolo; actually, only at the beginning of DBZ was base Gohan ever stronger than Piccolo. |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 9 2011, 01:38 AM Post #48 |
 
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Base Goku was at least equal with Yakon. Yakon scared the poop out of Kaioshin. Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo. Vegeta wasn't too far behind Base Goku. Base Vegeta was about even with Base Gohan from the Cell Games. Base Gohan couldn't have lost more than about 30% of his power over the 7 years. Aside from the Babidi and Dabra sequence, there's this logical deduction taken from the manga and Daizenshuu 7. Base Gohan would be more powerful than Piccolo during the Cell Games and the Boo arc. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 9 2011, 03:28 AM Post #49 |
 
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So true...the fact that Gohan Boo arc. was higher than The Namek proves how far behind the saiyans left everyone. I see The Namek taking pre-rosat Goten, but post-rosat Goten rips The Names a hole...since he doesn't have one. 
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses. 
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| lunar2 | Mar 9 2011, 04:03 AM Post #50 |
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ssj pre rosat goten would also easily win. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Mar 9 2011, 04:53 AM Post #51 |
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Chi Chi trained Goten would do good against Piccolo. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 9 2011, 01:50 PM Post #52 |
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I actually retract my 30% theory, and actually made the decrease 40%. The reason why I did that was because the statements from the Budokai and the Dabura fight. But that's pre-Budokai training, post-Budokai training I have Gohan only 20% weaker, and I have Vegeta's base then Cell Games, but yea your right, their about the same. I have their Bases higher than The Namek, because lets face it...the moment the Saiyans stepped out of the rosat, they left The Namek and Humans in the dust for good. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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Mar 11 2011, 06:48 AM Post #53 |
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What statements? |
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| Nusu | Mar 11 2011, 07:09 AM Post #54 |
Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.
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Even Pre-RoSaT they are already dust, they are that overpowered yes. |
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Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one. | |
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Mar 11 2011, 07:31 AM Post #55 |
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Dust? What's this about dust? |
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| Nusu | Mar 11 2011, 07:48 AM Post #56 |
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.
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Don´t know. Dust is annoying though. |
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Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one. | |
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| Saberoph | Mar 11 2011, 08:07 PM Post #57 |
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Well for one, Vegeta states at the Budokai that Gohan isn't even close to the power at the Cell Games. Then Vegeta says in the Debura fight that Gohan was stronger as a brat, and that Gohan was even weaker because Kibit couldn't restore that present Gohan to 100%. Goku even says Gohan got lazy.
That the Humans and The Namek are left FAR behind.
Very annoying, I can't stand the sight of it. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 11 2011, 09:56 PM Post #58 |
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The problem with your theory is that Gohan regressed from Cell to Buu, so if Piccolo was left in the dust so would Gohan, at least in his base form. Get it? Gohan got weaker after the 7 years of not training, so you can't say that Gohan rose his base literally a hundred fold when he actually weakened a decent amount. Cell games Piccolo is obviously > cell games base Gohan *> buu saga base Gohan We know that Gohan buu saga >>> Goten, so therefore Piccolo > cell Gohan base > buu Gohan base >>> Goten base. Also, all arguments against this are referring to Goku and Vegeta, who may have been many, many times more powerful than Goten and Trunks. Therefore, such arguments are red herrings. *On this point, Piccolo and Gohan both had about a day in the HTC; aka a year inside. Piccolo went in far, far, far stronger than Gohan's base; stronger as in at least 100 times stronger, remember that this is post fusion Piccolo and Gohan before he went ssj, who's likely no stronger than Nail fusion Piccolo. What you'd be suggesting is that Gohan's base rose so fast that it overcame Piccolo. This is ridiculous. Gohan would have to raise his base hundreds of times and Piccolo would have to not improve at all, or Gohan would have to raise his base possibly tens of thousands of times or at least thousands of times to overcome PIccolo, who would also be improving. Remember that Piccolo has shown with the Trunks to Android saga boost that he can compete with an even surpass Saiyan training boosts. Gohan and Goku got ahead of Piccolo because they discovered mssj, but for their bases to surge thousands of times faster than Piccolo is completely ridiculous. Also, Piccolo was capable of at least fighting with and surviving against a Cell jr., at iirc when Gohan went ssj2 PIccolo was still standing. Based on the cell games Gohan base > Piccolo theory, Piccolo would be unable to even phase a cell jr. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 11 2011, 11:58 PM Post #59 |
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alright fpgohan. let's get this straight. piccolo < kaioshin by his own admission. he said kaioshin was stronger than him, the same way tien said goku was stronger than him in the android saga, the same way tien said buutenks was stronger than him, the same way akira toriyama said another artist was better than him. he said "our dimensions are too different". with the way that phrase has been used every other time toriyama used it, there can be no other interpretaion than piccolo< kaioshin. kaioshin was worried about pui pui, and wanted to team up against yakon, who could not touch base goku, even with extending claws. piccolo < kaioshin < base goku. your argument is based on a single daiz entry stating that ssj is 50x, and your unsupported OPINION that mssj should be a larger multiplier. now, another nail in your coffin, according to piccolo, goku and majin vegeta MIGHT have surpassed cell games goku, while according to vegeta, they did surpass cell games goku, but he never says by how much. so, if piccolo wasn't sure if they even did, and vegeta doesn't say how much, then they didn't go all that far ahead. gohan lost a significant amount of power, yes, but he was still strong enough to fight evenly against dabura as mssj, who was stated to be about as powerful as cell, saying that 7 years ago, he would have been a dangerous opponent. this isn't initial perfect cell, who was weaker than 50% mssj goku, and this isn't full power perfect cell, who was far stronger than any mssj, so it must be the suppressed perfect cell that goku fought. so, now we know how powerful dabura is, so we know how powerful gohan is. gohan is still more powerful than goku was at the cell games, because goku later retconned and said dabura was stronger than he thought, and vegeta said that gohan was making mistakes and had lost his fighting instinct. so, unskilled gohan fighting dabura evenly, so he must be more powerful than dabura. therefore mssj gohan > mssj goku (cell games). now, from the x sword, we know that base goku was about as strong as mssj gohan, since he lifted and swung the z sword with some struggle, much like mssj gohan originally did. so, mssj gohan > mssj goku (cell games) base goku ~ mssj gohan goku (in general) > gohan (cell games), but not by a huge amount. now, unless you are going to say that gohan was hundreds of times stronger than goku at the cell games, when he obviously was not, since cell was only slightly impressed with his mssj power, the differene between base and ssj must be very small, no more than double. vegeta and trunks were more than 50% of goku at the cell games, but still far weaker. they were weaker than the cell kids, but not by much. piccolo was so much weaker than the cell kids that he could not even touch them. so, mssj goku (cell games) >> cell kids => ssj vegeta/trunks >> piccolo, worn down goku, and everyone else. piccolo at the cell games was less than 1/2 as powerful as goku, but still stronger than initial perfect cell. there is room for base goku at the cell games to be stronger than piccolo after all. since we know that gohan was stronger in the buu arc than that goku, and by a significant amount, when you consider how rusty his skills were, that means that as long as piccolo did not improve by a large amount, base gohan is still stronger. now, consider this. this is not the same piccolo that's been around since db. he fused with the passive kami, so he wouldn't train as hard as he used to, especially considering nail would want to spend time with dende, who's not a fighter at all. so, there is also plenty of reason for piccolo only marginally improving. now for goten/trunks. trunks was powerful enough to hit vegeta. vegeta would not suppress or hold back for any reason on the defensive, because there would be no reason to. why would he hold back? afraid of hurting trunks? he was only dodging, so that can't be it. plus, he hit trunks back, so apparently he's not too concerned about hurting him. make trunks feel good? nope, that's just not vegeta, he doesn't care about people's feelings, he never has and never will. there is no reasoning to assume that vegeta let him hit him, so he didn't. trunks actually did that. goten. base goten, during their first spar, was throwing rocks so hard and fast that mssj gohan needed to back up to be able to dodge them. while gohan is rusty, he's not so rusty that he can't dodge a rock thrown by someone less than 1/100th of his power, as you claim. then, mssj goten, although not able to get past gohan's defense, was hitting hard enough to have gohan yelling in pain just from blocking the blows. gohan then makes a comment that he had to start training, or the kids would pass him soon. notice, soon. this wasn't something that might happen in a few years, this was on a scale of weeks or months. so, piccolo < base saiyans (all.) |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 12 2011, 12:02 AM Post #60 |
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It doesn't matter what we find ridiculous. Whatever the plot points to, that's what is. I find Base Gotenks [post-RoSaT] > Super Saiyan Gotenks [pre-RoSaT] absolutely abysmal, but it's not erased because I hate it. Gohan's power rose more than 981x in one year training for the Saiyans, so I don't see why it can't happen at least once more at a point where his strength is the actual focus. |
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