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Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten
Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,109 Views)
Saberoph Mar 20 2011, 02:37 AM Post #241
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 I'm really starting to think that you don't know how to read.

I said I was just using the numbers that were present and the Logic that was laid out.

But of course, you ignore that like always, and accuse me of guessing, when I clearly said that I was using the numbers present, and the logic that was laid out.

Maybe you can read that, but I doubt it, you'll just once again twist it and start something else.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 02:49 AM Post #242
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Quote:
 

I'm really starting to think that you don't know how to read.


What really annoyed me was when I specifically agreed to Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others...and then you insulted me...and posted evidence of Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others! I freaking agreed to it, my disagreement was with you somehow linking this to Goten and Trunks surpassing Vegeta and the others.

you: Gotenks surpassed Goku, so Goten and Trunks did
me: Gotenks did, but that doesn't mean that Goten and Trunks did
you: ZOMG you idiot here's this evidence that Gotenks surpassed Goku!
me: ...I just agreed to it

You didn't bother apologizing for a misplaced insult and repeating the exact same evidence that you did in the post before...backing up something that I agreed with!

Quote:
 

I said I was just using the numbers that were present and the Logic that was laid out.


And if you weren't so self inflated, you'd realize that I'm responding to kamikaze pyro, not you.

Quote:
 

But of course, you ignore that like always, and accuse me of guessing, when I clearly said that I was using the numbers present, and the logic that was laid out.


Again, I'M RESPONDING TO KAMIKAZE PYRO, NOT YOU, YOU IDIOT! READ THE POST THAT I WAS QUOTING.

Quote:
 

Maybe you can read that, but I doubt it, you'll just once again twist it and start something else.


Do me a favor and go back to page 16, and look at my post at the bottom. Look at the post that I was quoting. Look at who it's by. OMG, it says kamikaze pyro!

If you do not come up with a valid excuse as to why you assumed that a post directed a kamikaze pyro has anything to do with you, then you're admitting to being the biggest hypocrite on this forum. Your post:

I'm really starting to think that you don't know how to read.

The person I was quoting:

Kamikaze Pyro

Hmm...I wonder how you'll dig yourself out of this one. Blaming me for misinterpreting your post when I wasn't even responding to yours, while at the same time blaming me for not reading right? Do you seriously think that there aren't other people that I respond to other than you.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 20 2011, 02:51 AM.
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Saberoph Mar 20 2011, 03:33 AM Post #243
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What really annoyed me was when I specifically agreed to Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others...and then you insulted me...and posted evidence of Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others! I freaking agreed to it, my disagreement was with you somehow linking this to Goten and Trunks surpassing Vegeta and the others.

This is your last comment on the matter...
Quote:
 
Saberoph, I honestly don't care about whether or not Gotenks surpasses Vegeta post ROSAT. What I am asking is where your evidence that Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku, despite the fact that Gogeta is heavily implied to be far, far, far more powerful than Gotenks.

Obviously, ssj Gotenks > ssj2 Vegeta. Whether or not Gotenks in base surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta is up for debate, but it really doesn't matter. Goku states quite blatantly in buu's stomach that Gogeta could defeat buuhan, and buuhan can obviously defeat ssj3 Gogeta.

For Gotenks to surpass SS2 Vegeta, he would have to surpass everyone as you say you said...but you only changed this after I pointed out the Diaz was being specific.

Nice try.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 03:50 AM Post #244
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You completely ignored all but the beginning of my post. I was not even responding to your post. I was talking to kamikaze pyro. Yet you assumed that you're the only one important enough for me to respond to, despite earlier accusing me of ignoring others' posts, hypocrite much?

When I call you out on it, you intentionally ignore it. You literally cut out that part from your rebuttal. There is only one reason for this, and that's outright dishonesty. You cannot claim a misunderstanding for this; oh, I accidentally pressed backspace on that part!




As for the part you actually responded to, I conceded that Gotenks > Goku. You quoted that post (as in the other) thread and responded...by insulting me and explaining that Gotenks > Goku? While quoting a post in which I agreed to it?

Analogy:

Bob: The Packers will beat the Steelers
Bill: Yeah, agreed!
Bob: Are stupid? The packers are going to win!
Bill: That's exactly what I said
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+ Pyrus Mar 20 2011, 04:01 AM Post #245
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Quote:
 
Sorry, but no it doesn't. For one, your math involves figures for Piccolo's increase from his death in the saiyan saga to his revival in the namek saga....which you admit to be complete speculation. We don't see Piccolo fight before fusing with nail on Namek, nor are any comments about his power level stated at that point either. Your guess is therefore complete conjecture.

Yes, I do admit his increase is basically complete speculation, but we do have two comments on his power pre-assimilation with Nail. He believes himself to be powerful enough to defeat Freeza (before actually sensing Freeza's power), who he knows is more powerful than Vegeta was on Earth, so he in turn would have to be stronger than at least Vegeta. Nail also comments on Piccolo's power as if it's something terrible.

Chapter: 293 (DBZ 99), P4.3
Context: Piccolo talking about wanting to fight Freeza
Piccolo: “My power has vastly increased here! I’ll definitely defeat him! Call me to that planet!”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

Quote:
 
You could try to estimate how much he improved based on his training time with King Kai, but that's circular reasoning. Your post was about saiyans vs Piccolo improvement rates, so trying to use an progression rate for Piccolo when that's what your trying to prove in your post is circular logic, because we don't know what Piccolo's progression rate is.

Then discard that part of the comparison. It doesn't have that great a bearing on the overall post.
Quote:
 
Your progression rate also doesn't support the saiyans by nearly enough for them to pass Piccolo in base in the ROSAT. You'd essentially had to have the saiyans progress 80x faster than Piccolo in an equal timeframe, which has never happened in DBZ even if the saiyans get better training and zenkai boost.

80x? Where'd you get that number?

Quote:
 
Also, your analysis of progression rates in the ROSAT imply that Piccolo is still ahead of base saiyans by a lot. Here's a quote from your post:

So we can put him anywhere from SSjG2 Vegeta to 1.3x weaker than Cell now

So if he's on par with SSJG2 Vegeta or more, then he's obviously far stronger than any of the base saiyans.

I kept the Base Saiyans below Piccolo because that wasn't the point of the post. I was showing that they can improve just as much as him, and have in the RoSaT. Using the numbers I posted, yes, they would have to increase by a lot more to catch up to him, but I was only pointing out that in an equal setting and time frame, they have increased more than him. Gohan increased by magnitudes more than Piccolo, Goku a little less astoundingly. Vegeta and Trunks increased more than Piccolo in the RoSaT. Goku increased a lot more in less than half the time Piccolo did training for the Saiyans. Excluding the speculative increase from Kaio's training, the only time Piccolo got a huge increase in power was from his training for the androids, and I explained why that could be. Every other training period, the Saiyans increased almost as much, if not more so, than Piccolo. Yeah, Piccolo jumps up in power through fusion with Kami and that creates a large gap between the Base Saiyans and himself, but it's not that far from unreachable territory (I worded that poorly, I know it). Using the numbers I posted, Vegeta and Trunks would only need to increase their power by about 5x to catch up to Piccolo post-assimilation, and then by another 5x to completely surpass his Cell Games power, even factoring in any light training Piccolo probably did during the 7 years. 10x all together over 7 years, for Vegeta with 300G training, is not that unfathomable. Goku would only need to increase by 3x to catch Kamiccolo, and then around 4x to pass up Cell Games Piccolo. For Gohan, since we know he regressed over the years, he had to have started out stronger than Piccolo in order to stay stronger than him, but of course, that's another debate all together.

If I wanted to put the Base Saiyans above Piccolo, I could've, because I see enough evidence in the Boo arc to warrant that, but I didn't to keep things simpler.
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 20 2011, 04:03 AM.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 04:20 AM Post #246
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Kami fusion Piccolo is powerful enough to evenly match Android 17 or 18 one on one, and either one have taken on Vegeta and Trunks in ssj and won easily.

Kamicollo is far stronger than the android saga super saiyans; in DBZ this would be a 50+% increase; android 17 and 18 were not phased by ssj Trunk's most powerful attack, and Kamicollo was even with 17.

Ssj is 50 times base, so Kamicollo is 80 times saiyan bases.

In none of your examples have Goku or the other saiyans ever progressed 80 times faster than Piccolo with equal or even superior training.

And Vegeta did not really show evidence of progressing faster than Piccolo in the ROSAT. He only caught up and passed Piccolo due to stacked transformations. Going by assj being 100 times base and Kamicollo being 80 times above base saiyans before rosat, assj Vegeta could be stronger than Piccolo without Vegeta advancing faster. In fact, if Piccolo were even with assj Vegeta he'd actually have outprogressed Vegeta, but Vegeta still got a transformation to overcome Piccolo.
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+ Pyrus Mar 20 2011, 04:25 AM Post #247
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 Mmk. I'm out then. I'm too dumb for this *****. You win here and forever. :p
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 20 2011, 04:30 AM.
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Saberoph Mar 20 2011, 12:09 PM Post #248
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You completely ignored all but the beginning of my post. I was not even responding to your post. I was talking to kamikaze pyro. Yet you assumed that you're the only one important enough for me to respond to, despite earlier accusing me of ignoring others' posts, hypocrite much?

Well for one, you said math, I used math in my post about it too, anyone could take it as a post commenting to their post. But of course you won't see it that way.
Quote:
 
When I call you out on it, you intentionally ignore it. You literally cut out that part from your rebuttal. There is only one reason for this, and that's outright dishonesty. You cannot claim a misunderstanding for this; oh, I accidentally pressed backspace on that part!

I don't use excuses, that's what you do when your back is against the wall.
Quote:
 
As for the part you actually responded to, I conceded that Gotenks > Goku. You quoted that post (as in the other) thread and responded...by insulting me and explaining that Gotenks > Goku? While quoting a post in which I agreed to it?

Lets break that down...shall we?
Quote:
 
What really annoyed me was when I specifically agreed to Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others...and then you insulted me...and posted evidence of Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others! I freaking agreed to it, my disagreement was with you somehow linking this to Goten and Trunks surpassing Vegeta and the others.

Now please the bold part below.
Quote:
 
Saberoph, I honestly don't care about whether or not Gotenks surpasses Vegeta post ROSAT. What I am asking is where your evidence that Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku, despite the fact that Gogeta is heavily implied to be far, far, far more powerful than Gotenks.

Obviously, ssj Gotenks > ssj2 Vegeta. Whether or not Gotenks in base surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta is up for debate, but it really doesn't matter. Goku states quite blatantly in buu's stomach that Gogeta could defeat buuhan, and buuhan can obviously defeat ssj3 Gogeta.

Then you turned around and made this statement, after I went through the explanation about the Diaz's being specific. So you all of a sudden completely agree once your back is against the wall.
Quote:
 
Bob: The Packers will beat the Steelers
Bill: Yeah, agreed!
Bob: Are stupid? The packers are going to win!
Bill: That's exactly what I said

I agree with the how you just described yourself.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 01:59 PM Post #249
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I still don't think you get it:

I was responding to kamikaze pyro, not you! That's why I was quoting his post!
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Daniel Mar 20 2011, 06:36 PM Post #250
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I like Pokémon

 this is going to turn into flaming if u guys dont chill! and Piccolo would have a chance of about 60% of beating Goten,m i think.... dont spazz at me plz !
Edited by Daniel, Mar 20 2011, 06:36 PM.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 07:00 PM Post #251
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Kaio- Shin
Mar 20 2011, 06:36 PM
this is going to turn into flaming if u guys dont chill! and Piccolo would have a chance of about 60% of beating Goten,m i think.... dont spazz at me plz !
Sorry, but luck and chance play little to no part in a straight up dbz battle; in dbz, if a character is even 20% stronger, he's going to win barring some sort of plot device or uber move.

Piccolo is on par with assj Vegeta even during the cell games saga, by the buu saga Piccolo is likely in between assj Vegeta and initial perfect cell.

Trunks is stronger than Goten, and yet he still could barely move in the gravity chamber when android saga Vegeta was dodging ki blasts in said gravity chamber.


The best feat that Goten has is taking on android 18. Fine then. But that still does not compare to post ROSAT PIccolo, who's far stronger than Android 18.

After the ROSAT, you might argue that the boys surpassed Piccolo. However, they only had 7.5 days. They went into the ROSAT at the most as powerful as pre ROSAT Piccolo. Piccolo and the boys therefore, if you're really generous for the boys, went into the ROSAT at the same time. However, the boys had a little over a week to train, while Piccolo had a full year. Piccolo would also be more productive. So, at the most generous for the kids:

Goten: android 18/17 level + 7.5 days in the time chamber
Piccolo: android 18/17 level + 365 days in the time chamber + whatever training he did in the 7 years between the cell games and the buu saga

Piccolo obviously comes out far on top. Again, high end Goten/Trunks are on par with the androids, low end are at base weaker than android saga Vegeta.
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Saberoph Mar 20 2011, 07:37 PM Post #252
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I still don't think you get it:

I was responding to kamikaze pyro, not you! That's why I was quoting his post!

I do get it, but putting @Pyro would be less confusing.
Quote:
 
Sorry, but luck and chance play little to no part in a straight up dbz battle; in dbz, if a character is even 20% stronger, he's going to win barring some sort of plot device or uber move.

Out of that whole post, that's the only thing I agree with. Oh well, at least it's something we agree on. :lol:
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 08:34 PM Post #253
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Saberoph
Mar 20 2011, 07:37 PM
Quote:
 
I still don't think you get it:

I was responding to kamikaze pyro, not you! That's why I was quoting his post!

I do get it, but putting @Pyro would be less confusing.
Quote:
 
Sorry, but luck and chance play little to no part in a straight up dbz battle; in dbz, if a character is even 20% stronger, he's going to win barring some sort of plot device or uber move.

Out of that whole post, that's the only thing I agree with. Oh well, at least it's something we agree on. :lol:



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Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 20 2011, 08:36 PM.
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Saberoph Mar 20 2011, 08:40 PM Post #254
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 Ok? And several times you have quoted someone then addressed someone else too.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 20 2011, 08:48 PM Post #255
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Saberoph
Mar 20 2011, 08:40 PM
Ok? And several times you have quoted someone then addressed someone else too.
But you blamed me for attacking his argument when you weren't referring to his argument:


But of course, you ignore that like always, and accuse me of guessing, when I clearly said that I was using the numbers present, and the logic that was laid out.


You see, I was attacking the actual logic, and you say that you were using the logic laid out and weren't arguing for it. Well no ***** sherlock, that's why I was quoting kamikaze pyro and not you.

In other words, you accuse me of misinterpreting your stance when I wasn't arguing your stance, I was debating kamikaze pyro who came up with the logic you were using.

I was accusing pyro of guessing, not you, hence why I quoted pyro and talked about his points, but not yours.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 20 2011, 08:49 PM.
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