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| Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,110 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Mar 18 2011, 11:51 PM Post #226 |
 
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You know my opinion. I've got another point, though I'm not sure it's been posted already or not. Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7 Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…” Context: this is before Fusion is even mentioned Right there, Piccolo says Goten and Trunks are their only hope. Not him, not No.18, not Krillin or anybody else. The kids are. He's not talking about "they're our only hope if they train," he means now they're already the only hope. And like the context says, this is before Fusion is ever mentioned. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 18 2011, 11:55 PM Post #227 |
 
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I think that would say it all, there... |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 19 2011, 02:57 AM Post #228 |
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I'll adress more points tomorrow, but in order to pass Piccolo in base, Goku would have to outprogress Piccolo by a rate that Goku never has before. Goku w king Kai training vs Piccolo w Earth training sees Goku raising his power level twice as fast. That's wih superior training. Goku in this case has equal training and his base starts off 80 times weaker. Goku couldn't outpace Piccolo more than about 2 times (20 times increase vs ten times incease) with better training back in the saiyan saga, so with equal training and actually less rosat time there's no way he'd somehow do it in the cell saga. Especially not Vegeta or Trunks, who did not get base raising mssj boosts from their first rosat. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 19 2011, 03:00 AM Post #229 |
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Now, are you addressing just Cell Games, or Boo arc too...just wanna make sure. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 19 2011, 03:49 AM Post #230 |
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Cell games |
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| soldier223 | Mar 19 2011, 05:25 AM Post #231 |
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The kids arn't weak by any means weak, their still Super Saiyans. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 19 2011, 05:25 AM Post #232 |
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first off, goku had 80 days, and piccolo had a year. i'm sure goku increased some on the road, but most of his increase would be during the last 80 days, when he was actually on king kai's planet. so, really, goku did progress far faster than piccolo, even with a handicap. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 19 2011, 05:41 AM Post #233 |
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Yeah, but Goku also had 10G, which he apparently became un-accustomed to, even though he was born on a planet with that much gravity. Perhaps Gohan is thinking that balances out Piccolo's handicap?
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 19 2011, 05:42 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Mar 19 2011, 07:12 AM Post #234 |
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Goku multiplies his power more than twice as fast (Goku: 416 -> 8,000+, Piccolo: 408 -> ~2,500 [even using his official 3,500 level that'd only be about an 8.5x increase]), but that's just a nitpick of mine.  Saiyan Training Goku went from 416 to "over" 8,000, but for simplicity's sake and to conform to the Daizenshuu's simple take on it, we'll make him simply 8,000. That's a 19.2x increase, so almost 20x but not quite. This increase came about through training in 10G, a level of gravity Goku was born in but became unadapted to as he grew up on Earth. Piccolo went from 408 to a suppressed level of 1,220. That's a 2.9x increase, so basically a 3x increase if you rounded up, and that's only his suppressed level. His actual level is debatable, as the Daizenshuu gives him 3,500 while others view it as somewhere right around 2,500 (like me) because 3,500 seems too close to Nappa's 4,000 level, plus it's equal to Kaio's 3,500 level. If you use 2,500, he increased his power by 6.1x, while he increased his power by 8.6x if you use 3,500. Gohan, though, multiplied his power by 981x, at least, in that one year of training, since he went from 1 to a suppressed rating of 981. That's by far the biggest multiplication of strength in the series that I can recall. Training for Namek Goku went from 8,000+ to 90,000 while training in 100G and abusing zenkais. That much is stated and shown, so there's no need to further elaborate here. That's an 11.25x increase with all that training and zenkai abuse. Piccolo went from 2,500/3,500 to who the hell knows because it's so debated at this point (I personally think he's stronger than Nail upon his arrival). Using a rough guess for Piccolo of 55,000 (about 1.3x more powerful than Nail), Piccolo got a 22x increase in 6 days through apparently just meditating on Kaio's planet. Lol. Maybe meditating in 10G made it harder, who knows. Trunks' Arrival We have no real strength indicators for the arrival of Trunks, so I'll never that out, but it's stated Goku spent most of his time learning new techniques and controlling SSj, so he logically wouldn't have much time for actual strength training; on the other hand, Piccolo was stated to be training fiercely by Gohan, and Vegeta was stated by Bulma to be training everyday as well. Android Training Goku, while sick, is implied by Tenshinhan to be stronger than when he returned from Yardrat, and he's still stated that he should be much more powerful by Piccolo, to which Gohan agrees. Goku grew at least 2x as powerful, I think, for that to work. Piccolo, on the way to West City, stated he was confident going up against enemies that made SSj Trunks wet his pants. Now, we have no real idea how strong Piccolo was prior to the 3 years, but we know by his own admission that he's stronger than SSj Trunks from 3 years ago, and by enough to whoop him apparently. My view is that Piccolo was probably as strong as Base Goku on Namek by the time Trunks arrived, so for him to go from 3,000,000 to 150,000,000+, that's at least a 50x increase right there. That is a huge increase and the hugest increase, aside from Gohan's Saiyan training increase, showcased in the series so far (even larger than Goku's 33x increase from 90,000 to 3,000,000). If Piccolo multiplied his power by another 6x or 8.6x, depending on if you use my 2,500 or if you use the official 3,500 respectively, like he did training for the Saiyans, he'd be at about 9,000,000 or 12,900,000 (using a Freeza fight level of 1,500,000). That's about 10% of Freeza's full power [pre-Mechanization]. That would require Vegeta to be at least 13,000,000, a 5.2x increase from his previous ~2,500,000 power on Namek, and if you truly believe the 50x multiplier is consistent, that would make his hypothetical SSj form 650,000,000 already. You'd hit the billions in no time with No.16, and that's before factoring in any gains from the 3 years of training! Haha. To continue on Piccolo's power, he was unharmed by a point-blank eye beam from No.20 (he stated it was a distraction to Gohan and co.), who was stronger than No.19 by his own admission, who was close to malfunctioning against a sick SSj Goku, at stated by No.20 as the fight went on. After No.20 fled, Piccolo stated to the others that they shouldn't go because " [No.20]'s not an opponent you guys could handle," which implied Piccolo himself can but obviously the others couldn't. We know No.20 is more powerful than No.19 initially, and although he would've eventually been beaten, No.19 was at least holding up against SSj Goku [sick]. That should put both initial androids above Freeza (at least organic Freeza), as I seriously doubt Freeza could tango with someone stronger than the person who's stronger than the person he got beat by, especially when it's stated by Piccolo that Goku was going all-out and rushing the fight. No.20 caught Piccolo by surprise, which I believe is the only reason he was able to hold Piccolo and drain his energy like that. After Piccolo took a senzu, he revealed that the energy No.20 stole was meaningless as it was just energy Piccolo was putting out to fool the android; thereafter, Piccolo thoroughly whoops on No.20 and slices his arm off with one hand. Also, while hiding, No.20 states Piccolo is the most powerful after Vegeta, which could mean Piccolo was more powerful than the power SSj Goku [sick] displayed. But there are some factors I think that need to be considered here for both parties. Goku had to train with two people leagues below him. He had to train them up a bit before they actually became beneficial to him at all. Piccolo, to the contrary, was benefiting the whole time because training with someone stronger than you, especially a lot stronger than you, is very preferable and yields great gains (both by our logic and DBZ's logic I would think). It's only natural that Piccolo would experience much better progression than Goku here because of the conditions. Also, it's shown on a title page that Goku as a SSj is sparring with Piccolo. You know that's going to garner a large increase for Piccolo because of the sheer challenge. If you compare the increase Piccolo got from training with Goku and Gohan to the ones he got training by himself prior, this increase is simply the biggest by far. Even combined, training for the Saiyans and on Kaio's planet pale in comparison to his android training. I think that speaks for itself there. As for Vegeta, we don't have much to go on for him for Trunks' arrival either. Perhaps we can assume that, since he was a good deal stronger than Piccolo on Namek, and both of them were stated to be training everyday, that Vegeta kept the stronger of the two, albeit the gap most likely got smaller, as Piccolo felt he could actually challenge Vegeta to a fight (to which Vegeta laughed off). Since he was stated to be training, we know he got stronger, and since Piccolo probably got to Base Goku's Namek level at least, then Vegeta must be ahead of that. So we'll give him 3,300,000 to put him 1.1x ahead of Piccolo's 3,000,000 for simplicity's sake. That's enough for Piccolo to think he can challenge Vegeta yet for Vegeta to still feel as if he'd win. (Note: Yes, I know, some people will disagree with those 3mil numbers because they seem like such small gains over the course of a year and 130 days, but it's for simplicity's sake and it keeps them from getting really powerful too quickly, at least IMO). Now, Vegeta would have to get a bigger increase than Goku, but we know he's not anywhere near Piccolo's strength by common sense and by the solid opinion that Piccolo is stronger than SSj Trunks [arrival], so logic would dictate he didn't get anywhere near the increase Piccolo got, even though he trained in 300G while Piccolo trained in normal gravity Trunks, who was stronger than Goku on Namek but not quite as powerful as Goku when he returned from Yardrat, was grouped together as the 3 most powerful fighters during the Android fight by Kami. This automatically puts him above Piccolo, who we've established to be about as strong as SSj Goku [sick] if not stronger even. To give him a power stronger than Vegeta but weaker than Goku, I'll just settle for 3,500,000. To put him around Goku and Vegeta's level, who should both be around 8,000,000 and 8,500,000 respectively using the numbers I've laid out already, he'd gain a similar increase of at least 2x. To recap a bit before I continue, these are the gains we've got so far: Goku Raditz to Saiyans: at least 19.2x Saiyans to Namek: at least 11.25x Yardrat to Trunks' arrival: unknown, but little increase can be deduced Trunks' arrival to the Androids: at least 2x Piccolo Raditz to Saiyans: 6.1x OR 8.6x Saiyans to Namek: unknown, although it can be argued he was stronger than Nail Namek to Trunks' arrival: at least 2x Trunks' arrival to the Androids: at least 50x Gohan Raditz to Saiyans: at least 981x Vegeta Namek to Trunks' arrival: 1.32x Trunks' arrival to the Androids: at least 2.5x Trunks Trunks' arrival to the Androids: at least 2x Okay, take a breather for a moment. Stretch, take a bathroom break, whatever it is you've got to do to prepare for even more of this text wall. ...Now, let's continue. Training for Cell/The Cell Games This section will be sort of confusing but bear with me. The reason I say it'll be confusing is because one character's strength depends on another, and then that character's strength depends on another, and so on. It's a tad choppy, but I'll do my best. I guess we'll start off with Goku, since everybody else's power essentially depends on his for the most part. At full health, he's a bit weaker than Vegeta. Vegeta was a good deal stronger than Piccolo, who was stronger than No.20 and No.19, so we have a decent gauge for where Goku stands. Although Vegeta was a bit stronger, he still got whooped by No.18 in two hits when she decided to take him seriously. By Goku's own admission, "if even Vegeta couldn’t beat them as he is now, then I can’t beat them either." Fast forward a little and Piccolo has assimilated with Kami, completely outstripping the Super Saiyans, as shown by Vegeta's reaction and statement ("The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian..."). Piccolo, after fusing with Kami, was only equal to No.17 (who was a bit more powerful than No.18), who was no match for Imperfect Cell [humans absorbed], who was fighting on even ground with No.16. That is already a humongous gap, at least 2x, that Goku has to make up in the RoSaT. He does, though, and by quite a huge amount obviously. He goes from below SSj Vegeta to above SSjG3 Trunks -- clearly a broad gap for someone to close, all things considered. But in order to gauge the gap he makes here, we have to switch characters a couple times. We turn to Cell now. Initially, he was more powerful than SSj Vegeta already and weaker than weighted Piccolo [post-Kami assimilation]. After absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans, he became more powerful than Piccolo, No.17, and No.18 to the point where Piccolo's most powerful attack, one that scared No.17, didn't even scratch him. He was on equal terms with No.16 by this point. I'm trying to keep this simple, so I'll give him the base ownage rate of 1.3x, although I personally think it should be at least 1.4x. After absorbing No.17, he now became powerful enough to tank everything No.16 threw at him, and this was all while suppressed, as he later revealed his true power against SSjG2 Vegeta. His suppressed level was about on par with normal SSj Vegeta [post-RoSaT], as implied by Trunks' wondering of why Vegeta transformed so quickly. Even though his full power was completely outclassed by SSjG2 Vegeta, after absorbing No.18, he became enough to make a fool out of Vegeta in return, and at that point was only surpassed in power by SSjG3 Trunks. Before we continue with him, we must get to Vegeta and Trunks. Vegeta went from below Imperfect Cell [initial] to stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell in SSjG2. As already mentioned, Trunks wondered why Vegeta was transforming from SSj to SSjG2 against Semi-Perfect Cell so early, implying that in just SSj, Vegeta was already at least equal to Semi-Perfect Cell, otherwise Trunks wouldn't have been wondering. Again, for simplicity's sake, we'll give SSjG2 a 2x multiplier. That allows Semi-Perfect Cell, who I just have as Imperfect Cell [post-human absorption] plus No.17, to use full power and still be about 1.4x weaker than Vegeta. That's a complete stomp, which it was. Trunks is a lot simpler. He can still be weaker than Vegeta yet strong enough to stomp Semi-Perfect Cell into the ground in SSjG2, and then using another 2x multiplier for SSjG3, more than strong enough to have taken care of Perfect Cell [initial] if he'd been fast enough to catch him. Back to Cell, we can place his initial Perfect state at 1.3x SSjG2 Vegeta and still have him more than weak enough for his claim of SSjG3 Trunks "far surpassing" him to remain true. Now, finally we can get back to Goku. Throughout the entire ordeal, he'd been training in the RoSaT with Gohan. He at first had to slow himself down for Gohan's sake, as he admitted Gohan would slow him down in the beginning until he was able to transform into a SSj. We don't know how long that took so I'm not going to even guess, but we do know Gohan didn't do it right away, so some of Goku's year was spent training Gohan how to transform and use SSj instead of actually training to grow stronger himself. But once Gohan was a SSj, their real training commenced, and Goku surpassed SSjG3 Trunks' power by a good enough amount to shock everybody, Trunks included. That's a substantial amount of growth for not even training the entire year. I don't believe achieving new forms suddenly gave Goku a big boost in strength or allowed him to gain strength easier after, as I don't see anything that supports that idea, but feel free to prove that if you'd like. Anyway, the amount of power Goku displayed at that point was only half of his full capacity, so "substantial" was an understatement. Then we come to Gohan. He got the largest increase by far out of everybody in the RoSaT. He went from at least 1.3x weaker than Base Goku [pre-RoSaT] to at least 1.3x stronger than Base Goku [post-RoSaT]. That means he surpassed everybody previous while starting out the weakest. That is a massive gain. In order for Gohan to have become stronger than everybody previous, he would have had to have increased his power by a minimum of 45x. That's around the same gain Piccolo got training for the androids, and this is using conservative means AND keeping him below Piccolo in Base so you don't pick at that. Piccolo by now has been far left in the dust, but then he trains in the RoSaT and comes out much stronger, as stated by Goku. But he's still not strong enough to be a match for Cell, who at this point hadn't powered up yet beyond the one demonstration of "buffing up" to mimic SSjG3 Trunks. So we can put him anywhere from SSjG2 Vegeta to 1.3x weaker than Cell now. Yes, he was still standing against a Cell Junior when Gohan went SSj2, but by magnifying the panel, I saw that Tenshinhan also was, albeit with his back to us while we can see all of Piccolo. We see a lot of Tenshinhan's fight with the Junior and all of it except that one instance is him getting whooped on, but aside from that one instance, we don't see any of Piccolo's fight. Piccolo didn't land any hits on the Cell Junior that we could see, while Vegeta and Trunks, on the other hand, did. To put things into better perspective, here's yet another battle power chart to show you what I'm doing with their gains and levels. All of it uses the 50x multiplier and the 1.3x difference, except SSjG2 Vegeta and Trunks ended up 1.4x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell and I couldn't really help that. Spoiler: click to toggle So to recap on gains made throughout this period, here we go: Goku Androids to Cell: 25.7x Piccolo Post-Kami to Cell: 3.9x Gohan Androids to Cell: 47.7x Vegeta Androids to Semi-Perfect Cell: 2.4x Semi-Perfect Cell to the Cell Games: 6.5x Trunks Androids to Semi-Perfect Cell: 2.6x Semi-Perfect Cell to the Cell Games: 6.7x While not trying to surpass SSj this time, something you're implying is unfair to Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks both made bigger gains than him their second time around. That right there is proof that the Saiyans can and have made more progress than Piccolo on equal terms, so to speak. Just because Piccolo doesn't have a transformation to harness doesn't mean it should be counted against the Saiyans' progress. That'd be like saying Piccolo's training is only as good as it is because he's assimilated with Nail and Kami. Also, as Lunar noted, Goku made vastly more progress in only 22% of the time Piccolo had to train. Even using those levels, Goku would only need to increase his power by about 11x to catch up to Piccolo in Base, something that should come easy to him in Otherworld, especially after unlocking two new forms, since that allows the user to gain power quicker according to what I understand from your posts. I did another chart with Base Gohan above Piccolo (3,500,000,000) while keeping the 50x multiplier, and it astounded me how much stronger ALL of the Saiyans were when doing that. So it occurred to me that there were three options I had at that point: A) go against the Boo arc and make the Base Saiyans weaker than Piccolo; B) go against the guidebooks and make the SSj multiplier smaller, which wouldn't be too far-fetched as people go against the guidebooks all the time...; or C) believe the Saiyans and Cell, and everybody that came after them villain-wise, were all astoundingly stronger than Piccolo by this point. I honestly don't see any other options after all this. Whew. I hope that wasn't too bad for anybody. I tried to make it as brief as I could without omitting essential information, but it turns out there's apparently a lot of essential information. Haha. So that's that. There are obviously quite a few things I heavily disagree with in this post, but they all revolve around the Base Saiyans remaining so weak, and I didn't want to debate that in this post as well, so yeah. And of course, there are some things I'm probably slightly off or wrong about, but I did my best as the hours went on and my brain started to shut down. 
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 19 2011, 07:37 AM.
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| lunar2 | Mar 19 2011, 09:29 AM Post #235 |
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wow. i honestly don't know what else to say at 4 a.m. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Nusu | Mar 19 2011, 10:15 AM Post #236 |
Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.
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Holy *****, what a text. |
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Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one. | |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 19 2011, 02:22 PM Post #237 |
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Kamikaze, your post is very good. And it agrees with my assertion that Piccolo >> saiyans in base. After the Android saga no saiyans non fused ever surpass Piccolo while in base. |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 19 2011, 04:21 PM Post #238 |
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Thanks.  But It doesn't agree with your assertion. I noted that I didn't put them ahead of Piccolo in Base because that's not the point I was debating and I didn't want to derail the entire post with that debate. I was debating that the Saiyans can and have made as much, if not more, progress than Piccolo in a couple different instances. That last part of my post lays out all the options I see possible. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 20 2011, 02:20 AM Post #239 |
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Gohan, using KP's numbers and your logic, Gohan still progressed much more than The Namek did, and that's adding everything together...even if you multiply them, Gohan still is ahead of The Namek.
Funny, you say Saiyans...that's plural, that means for the definitive answer, we would have to add Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks' progression rate, then compare it to The Nameks. First though, here are all of them added individually. Goku: 58.15. Gohan: 1,029. Vegeta: 12.72. Trunks: 11.3. The Namek First Set: 62. The Namek Second Set: 64.5. As you can see with The Namek, I made two sets, one with 6.1 as the starting point. The second with 6.8 as the starting point. But lets see what the overall from Raditz to the Cell Games progression rate from Saiyans v.s The Namek. The Saiyans: 1,111.17. The Namek Set One: 62. The Namek Set Two: 64.5. Not trying to start an argument, but that's pretty definitive going by those numbers, and the logic that's laid out. That overall a Saiyan still progressed FAR more than what The Namek did. However, that doesn't mean what The Namek did wasn't impressive, it actually does considering how well he's kept up with the Saiyans. As a matter of fact, he's my second non-Human character. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 20 2011, 02:29 AM Post #240 |
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Sorry, but no it doesn't. For one, your math involves figures for Piccolo's increase from his death in the saiyan saga to his revival in the namek saga....which you admit to be complete speculation. We don't see Piccolo fight before fusing with nail on Namek, nor are any comments about his power level stated at that point either. Your guess is therefore complete conjecture. You could try to estimate how much he improved based on his training time with King Kai, but that's circular reasoning. Your post was about saiyans vs Piccolo improvement rates, so trying to use an progression rate for Piccolo when that's what your trying to prove in your post is circular logic, because we don't know what Piccolo's progression rate is. Your progression rate also doesn't support the saiyans by nearly enough for them to pass Piccolo in base in the ROSAT. You'd essentially had to have the saiyans progress 80x faster than Piccolo in an equal timeframe, which has never happened in DBZ even if the saiyans get better training and zenkai boost. Also, your analysis of progression rates in the ROSAT imply that Piccolo is still ahead of base saiyans by a lot. Here's a quote from your post: So we can put him anywhere from SSjG2 Vegeta to 1.3x weaker than Cell now So if he's on par with SSJG2 Vegeta or more, then he's obviously far stronger than any of the base saiyans. Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 20 2011, 02:31 AM.
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