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| Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,114 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Mar 15 2011, 11:12 PM Post #166 |
 
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Where did you get a hundred times from? |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 15 2011, 11:17 PM Post #167 |
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SSJ = 50 times base. USSJ grade 2 is far more powerful in terms of raw power than USSJ grade 1 aka assj, which is more powerful than ssj. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 15 2011, 11:25 PM Post #168 |
 
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Show me where I've backed out, because I keep saying Goku's Base is stronger than the other Saiyans Base...and that's pre-rosat Goten and Trunks. And still sticking with pre-rosat Goku's Base couldn't be greater than any of the MSS. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses. 
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 15 2011, 11:31 PM Post #169 |
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Oh, pre rosat? Ok, you should have clarified. Goku > post ROSAT Goten and Trunks to. Again, Goku expected him and Vegeta fusing to be strong enough to take on buuhan, and this is with the regular fusion dance. He also expected him and Gohan fusing; remember that Gohan would have to lower his power level, to be able to defeat Buutenks, without any rival boost or Goku knowing of a rival bost. Goku + Vegeta >>> Goten + Trunks, and Goku + Gohan suppressed to Goku's PL >>> Goten + Trunks |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 15 2011, 11:33 PM Post #170 |
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Why would Goku have to be 100x more powerful exactly? I'm getting a bit confused here, sorry. If I used a traditional 50x multiplier, then he'd only need to be 50x more powerful. Still quite a bit but it's not as bad as 100x. |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 15 2011, 11:36 PM Post #171 |
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Because you agreed to a prompt that Goku buu saga > USSJ grade 2 Vegeta. That would also mean that mssj buu saga Goku could one shot full power perfect cell, and base buu saga Goku could beat up cell; remember that ussj grade 2 Vegeta and Trunks were stronger in raw power than Cell. Which wouldn't explain why dabura casually blocked base Goku's punches. Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 15 2011, 11:36 PM.
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| Saberoph | Mar 15 2011, 11:44 PM Post #172 |
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Goku and Vegeta could still be weaker than the boys, but the boast they get is far greater than Goten and Trunks, so the boast would make up for the difference. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 16 2011, 12:44 AM Post #173 |
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Prove that Goku and Vegeta got a bigger boost, and prove that Goku knew about this when judging Gogeta's potential power level. Remember that Goku wouldn't know about the rival boost, yet he still calculated that he fused with Vegeta could take on buuhan and win. I've also noticed that you're saying could be (please respond to both of these points, thanks). You tried to say that because Gotenks > Goku and Vegeta, Goten and Trunks > Goku and Vegeta, which really is not reflecting well on your situation. By that logic, Goku is stronger than buuhan, since Goku fused with Vegeta could take out buuhan. See the inherent flaw in your argument? The entire point of fusion is for two weaker characters to combine into one character to beat a stronger character. Goku and Vegeta fusing was stated to be more powerful than Goten and Trunks fusing, because Gogeta could take on buuhan while SSJ3 Gotenks was slightly more powerful than super buu without any absorptions. Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 16 2011, 12:47 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Mar 16 2011, 12:53 AM Post #174 |
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Ah, I think I'm understanding a bit now... probably not though. Either way you slice it, Gohan and Goku's gain in the RoSaT trumps Piccolo's by far. I made a small chart that shows their rough power levels and how they stack up against each other using the 30% advantage method (and the 50x multiplier), and in it the Saiyans make far bigger gains than Piccolo. Vegeta (pre-ROSAT): 10,000,000 -SSj: 500,000,000 Piccolo (pre-Kami): 250,000,000 -Post-Kami: 750,000,000 (equal with No.17) No.16: 975,000,000 Semi-Perfect Cell (suppressed): 1,300,000,000 -Full power: 1,725,000,000 Vegeta (post-ROSAT): 26,000,000 -SSj: 1,300,000,000 -SSjG2: 2,600,000,000 Trunks (post-ROSAT): 25,000,000 -SSj: 1,250,000,000 -SSjG2: 2,500,000,000 -SSjG3: 5,000,000,000 Initial Cell: 3,250,000,000 Piccolo (post-ROSAT): 2,600,000,000* Goku (pre-ROSAT): 9,500,000 -SSj: 475,000,000 Goku (post-ROSAT): 260,000,000 -MSSj (50%): 6,500,000,000 -MSSj (100%): 13,000,000,000 Gohan (pre-ROSAT): 4,000,000 -SSj (hypothetical): 200,000,000 Gohan (post-ROSAT): 340,000,000 -MSSj: 17,000,000,000 -SSj2: 136,000,000,000 Vegeta (post-2nd ROSAT): 170,000,000 -SSj: 8,500,000,000 Trunks (post-2nd ROSAT): 165,000,000 -SSj: 8,250,000,000 Full Power Cell: 25,000,000,000 So if you look at it and do the math, you'll see that Goku multiplied his power by 27x (I'm using your theory on them having to be below 10,000,000 pre-RoSaT) training in the RoSaT. Goku remarked to Gohan that he'd slow him down in the beginning of their RoSaT training, so I didn't make Base Gohan too strong yet. But using those levels, Gohan multiplies his power by 85x. Now, you may argue that I made Gohan too weak pre-RoSaT. Fine, let's make him 30% weaker than Base Goku in order to fit Goku's training partner statement. That would make him 6,650,000 in Base. Even using that number, he'd end up multiplying his power by 51x in the RoSaT, something you're saying is basically impossible for a Saiyan to do, right? (And I ask that in a discussion-type way, not an accusatory-type way.) Now let's look at Vegeta and Trunks. Clearly their gains aren't as spectacular as Goku and Gohan's, but they are still overall more than Piccolo's gain. Vegeta multiplied his power by 2.6x the first time around, and then by 6.5x the second time around; Trunks multiplied his power by 2.9x the first time, and then by 6.6x the second time. Piccolo multiplied his power by 3.4x (3.5x if you round up) during his tenure in the RoSaT. That's more than Vegeta and Trunks did their first time but it's chump change compared to their second time; Piccolo's gain is about 1.3x more than Vegeta's first gain (which is less than Trunks'), but their gain the second time is almost 2x Piccolo's. So in conclusion, if Gohan can increase his power by at least 50x in one year in a measly 10G (which Vegeta can't even feel), why can't Vegeta in seven years with a gravity chamber that goes up to 300G also do the same, if not even better? Vegeta, in a level of gravity that doesn't even affect him, can increase his power by at least 2.5x, so with 300G and seven years, I don't see why him increasing his power by more than 50x is a huge deal, especially when plot pretty much determines power, and it's heavily implied that Base Vegeta > Kaioshin, or at least Base Vegeta =< Kaioshin (since I guess you can stick him below Kaioshin but above Piccolo and not have it affect the story). This is just Vegeta, mind you. Goku, also in gravity that didn't affect him, multiplied his power by 27x, more than half of 50x. That's impressive, even with a training partner. So if he can do that in basically normal gravity (to him), what's to stop him from making even huger gains in Otherworld, where time doesn't exist and he's got much more resources available to him? I'm not even getting into Base Gohan presumably being stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games (only Gohan would need to be above Piccolo in Base as he's the only one to get weaker). That would only further jack up Gohan and Goku's gains, which you probably don't want to even fathom, haha. This is just using a traditional 50x multiplier, the 30% advantage method, and the Base Saiyans being below Piccolo, all of which you agree with I'm pretty sure. Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by Pyrus, Mar 16 2011, 12:55 AM.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 16 2011, 12:58 AM Post #175 |
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Actually, Vegeta in your chart didn't increase his power level in terms of base by much more than Piccolo raised his power level. The reason why Vegeta, Goku and Gohan ended up passing Piccolo is because they discovered new transformations. Their base strength did not even come close to PIccolo. |
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| Rockman | Mar 16 2011, 12:58 AM Post #176 |
hoighty-toighty
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omg, I just want to know whether Goten or Piccolo will win. I didn't think i'd have to read a book to find out your opinion... lol |
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 16 2011, 12:59 AM Post #177 |
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Piccolo was slighly above assj Vegeta post first ROSAT. Goten's best feat is taking on android 18. |
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| Rockman | Mar 16 2011, 01:01 AM Post #178 |
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hoighty-toighty
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We aren't discussing experience? I know that discussion has passed... right? |
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JAke is a copyright of Spazo and Pickle Flavored Fudge Pops inc. | |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 16 2011, 01:03 AM Post #179 |
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I know, I put the Base Saiyans far below Piccolo in that chart to make it easier on you. I know the reason they far surpassed Piccolo overall was because of their transformations. But in that paragraph regarding just Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo, the two former's Bases grew more in their second year than Piccolo did in his year, and this was when Vegeta and Trunks were going the Mastered Super Saiyan route, so they weren't trying to pump more power out with Grades 2 and 3 anymore. Still, Gohan's power increase is immense whether you put him close to Base Goku pre-ROSAT or not, and that's what I wanted to get across, is that the Base Saiyans can increase their power heavily at times and given the right circumstances. Edited by Pyrus, Mar 16 2011, 01:04 AM.
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| lunar2 | Mar 16 2011, 02:13 AM Post #180 |
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gohan was also the only one, in canon, anyway, that had difficulty with the 10g. goten would also have that same difficulty, since he was never exposed to gravity training before. and goten's increased gains would help trunks, as well. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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