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Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten
Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,115 Views)
Saberoph Mar 14 2011, 11:24 PM Post #151
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 Yea, nearly every time Gohan, Goku and Vegeta trains, they prove they can increase much more than what The Namek does, because The Namek has to train with a Super Saiyan to make that kind of an increase, and that's no guarantee he'll have the same increase every time.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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Wintergreen5000 Mar 15 2011, 03:39 PM Post #152
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WCZE

 So what's being said here is that since Kaioshin is supposedly much stronger than Piccolo, and Piccolo is at the Cell Jr level more or less, and since Goku fought Yakon and Vegeta fought Pocus, creatures that Kaioshin wouldn't fight, then that means that Base Goku and Vegeta [Buu Arc] are stronger than not only Piccolo but also SSjin Goten and Trunks? Because it is said that Kaioshin is basically in another dimension of power compared to Piccolo, so he's at least on SSjin Goten's level. By what you guys are saying, if I'm laying down things right here, is that Base Goku is actually stronger than even SSjin Goten, who is close to SSjin Teen Gohan, who is close to Dabra. I don't know guys, lol. Something seems wrong here.
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Saberoph Mar 15 2011, 04:13 PM Post #153
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 Well see with the numbers I'm going by, Goku's Base is just higher than everyone else's Base, but isn't stranger than everyone's MSS. This is how I have it.

Bases: Goku>Vegeta>East Kaioshin>Gohan>Trunks>Goten>The Namek.

Goku's Base compared to MSS Full Power: Vegeta>Gohan>Trunks>Goten>Goku>East Kaioshin>The Namek.

That's how it is on my revised list, so I don't have Goku's Base higher than anyone's MSS, but he can still be stronger than East Kaioshin.

Not stating it as fact, but that's what I go by.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Wintergreen5000 Mar 15 2011, 06:48 PM Post #154
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WCZE

 So to you Base Goku [Buu arc] is stronger than SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta [Cell Game]?
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Saberoph Mar 15 2011, 06:56 PM Post #155
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 As for that yes, but you have to remember Goku trained for 7 years straight, and so did Vegeta, so by the time the Budokai came around, Goku and Vegeta both surpassed that level, but it didn't matter because of how useless it was anyway.

Because in the Cell Games, Goku's Base would already be close to that level in Base because of his MSS training, because the users Base is increasing constantly. And by the time the Boo arc came around, Vegeta had Mastered SS and was slightly stronger than Cell Games Gohan, so naturally their Bases would be that high.

Also Vegeta never went Grade 2 in the Cell Games, he only went SS, logically he was Mastering SS like Goku and Gohan, it's pretty obvious that would be the only way to come close to catching him.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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FPSSJGohan Mar 15 2011, 07:37 PM Post #156
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lunar2
Mar 14 2011, 11:06 PM
alright gohan.
1. piccolo was never able to keep up with base goku, except from trunks to androids. why? because he was training with goku. the only possible way for piccolo to have caught up with the ssjs is to have trained with ssj goku. after the 3 year timeskip, he had know ssj to train with, and therefore could not be expected to maintain the gains he had before. you are going to ask for proof, of course, and my proof is this: what was different about that period from all other periods? why was that the only time he made those kinds of gains?
2. you don't know what piccolo's power was during the trunks saga, but it's pretty safe to say that it was over 3 million. the same applies to vegeta. in fact, going by some of vegeta's comments, he seemed to think that he could take frieza. that tells us 2 things, of course. frieza was at his standby power, and vegeta was much stronger than his ~2.5 million from namek. considering that it's been over a year since namek, i don't doubt for a second that they are both well over 3 million.
3. no, it was never stated or implied that nameks were on average stronger than saiyans. thats made up bull your spouting just trying to sound good.
4. it has never been agreed by most people that mssj > ssj multiplier.

i think i'm going to stick with saberoph on this one. i'm done with you, your just arguing the same tired things over and over, ven though 1/2 the people on this forum have explained how your wrong.
1. Yet upon entering the ROSAT, PIccolo said that he would rather train by himself because others would merely get in his way. He clearly believes that training by himself in the ROSAT is more productive than training with others, even the mssj's. Piccolo is usually right about these things.

1b. How does training a super saiyan increase Piccolo's training productivity? In order for the fight to be a fight and not a curbstomp, Goku would have to go really easy on Piccolo, essentially nullifying the point of going ssj and the potential benefits for training. If Goku goes all out, Piccolo gets creamed, and getting creamed over and over without getting to fight is not productive to training.

1c. Piccolo doesn't have to eat and probably sleeps less, plus he's more serious than, for example, Goku and Gohan, who casually take baths and eat lots of food. Piccolo would therefore be pretty darn productive in his training.

1d. Even if the saiyans could progress faster than Piccolo; which is never implied, in order to pass Piccolo with their bases the saiyans would have to progress 400 times faster than Piccolo or more. Not even Goku with King Kai's training vs Piccolo with normal training was able to progress that much faster.

2. That would be what, the third time Vegeta thought that he could take on Freiza but really couldn't? That's a nitpick though; either way, Vegeta and Piccolo were both below 5 million before the Android saga, but at the Android saga Vegeta's base was still below 10 million and PIccolo's base was at least in the tens of millions.

3. Really? Then explain why Nail, the strongest Namek fighter before PIccolo came back, was 42,000 while saiyan saga Vegeta, the well mentioned prince of all saiyans was only 18,000?

4. You and saberoph both agreed that mssj is at least equal to ssj. Obviously mssj > ssj, because otherwise Goku and Gohan would have used assj. You've admitted that it doesn't make sense to use a form equal to ssj instead of using assj.

And quite the subtle bashing. You're the one claiming that Vegeta went from being weaker than PIccolo even in ssj to being stronger than Piccolo even in base with the same amount and quality of training. He would have to outpace Vegeta by an amount that NO CHARACTER HAS EVEN DONE TO ANOTHER Z WARRIOR IN DBZ. Even Goku with King Kai's training did not surpass Chiaotzu by a large enough margin that Vegeta would have to in order to surpass PIccolo in base. Even Goku with King Kai's training and 100x gravity training put together did not surpass Piccolo in the saiyan saga by a large enough margin that Vegeta would need. Not even Goku's plot boosted uber zenkai from 90,000 to 3 million would be enough. Vegeta would have to multiply his base by hundreds of times.

See? Goku with superior training to Piccolo in the saiyan saga did not outpace PIccolo by hundreds of times, yet Vegeta with equal training and starting out weaker than PIccolo can by hundreds of times? Your logic goes against proven examples in DBZ.
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lunar2 Mar 15 2011, 09:52 PM Post #157
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 i never said that mssj multiplier = greater than ssj, don't put words in my mouth again. saberoph didnt say it either. in fact, he said the multiplier for mssj was 1.5x, but that they can power up after transforming. mine is 2x, flat. no continued power ups, nothing, but that base increases so much during the process that the end result is stronger than ssj was before mastering it. but again, i'm done arguing with you about this, don't even bother directing anything at me on this subject again.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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FPSSJGohan Mar 15 2011, 10:06 PM Post #158
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lunar2
Mar 15 2011, 09:52 PM
i never said that mssj multiplier = greater than ssj, don't put words in my mouth again. saberoph didnt say it either. in fact, he said the multiplier for mssj was 1.5x, but that they can power up after transforming. mine is 2x, flat. no continued power ups, nothing, but that base increases so much during the process that the end result is stronger than ssj was before mastering it. but again, i'm done arguing with you about this, don't even bother directing anything at me on this subject again.
Nice that you completely ignored my entire argument except for a little nitpick. That = conceding right there.

Also nice that you think that an mssj is weaker than a ssj and weaker than a kaioken times 20.

Get it? A 2x flat increase would mean that Goku and Gohan would be better off using kaioken times 20; well, if Gohan learned it. In fact, a kaioken times 20 Goku could oneshot perfect cell.

That's right; one shot.

MSSJ Goku: 10 example
Perfect Cell suppressed: 10
Base Goku: 5
Kaio-ken 20 Goku: 100

A 10 times power factor increase is more than enough for a one shot, as SSJ2 Gohan vs cell jrns show. Therefore, Goku could have one shotted cell, vegeta, piccolo, trunks and the others if he wanted to with kaioken times 20.

In fact, kaioken times 20 would be so powerful that it would be more powerful than ssj2.











In other words, you're suggesting that Goku would be better of using kaioken or the original ssj than mssj. This does not explain why Goku used mssj instead of the far, far, far more powerful ssj, or why it's called mastered ssj.










He could have used mssj to train to raise up his base, and then switched back to ssj or assj in a fight. I've told you this, and your only response is to say that it doesn't make sense and that that's just the way the author made the characters think, which is a piss poor explanation and you know it. Your explanation is crap.













And another killer to your argument: Goku powered to 50% MSSJ in Korin's tower. But according to you, that would be equal to base, if mssj at full power is 2x base. I think you'll see the problem with that.












In other words, you think that Goku going kaioken times 20 during the cell games (after using mssj while training to raise his PL) could have one shotted and humiliated cell. Before you list the weakness of kaioken, remember the fact that it would be a one shot. Goku could have killed cell in one hit, and that would be the end of it.












But of course, you decided to say that you're done arguing with me, while ignoring 99% of my argument like a true jerk.
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Saberoph Mar 15 2011, 10:12 PM Post #159
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 He's not being a jerk, you are, you keep pushing people and pissing them off because you ignore the FACTS, and do that in every Topic. I could show you a Manga quote that would disprove an argument of yours, and you would dismiss it and say it's not valid because you don't agree with it.

People don't like debating with you, because you think what you say is more credible than what others say, and it's impossible ti have a civil debate with you.

Like I said before...your not worth the time or effort to keep debating.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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FPSSJGohan Mar 15 2011, 10:24 PM Post #160
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Saberoph
Mar 15 2011, 10:12 PM
He's not being a jerk, you are, you keep pushing people and pissing them off because you ignore the FACTS, and do that in every Topic. I could show you a Manga quote that would disprove an argument of yours, and you would dismiss it and say it's not valid because you don't agree with it.

People don't like debating with you, because you think what you say is more credible than what others say, and it's impossible ti have a civil debate with you.

Like I said before...your not worth the time or effort to keep debating.
No, I'd dismiss it and say it's not valid because it would be flawed, or in many ways twisted.

For example, you used the part with Gohan dodging Goten's rocks, and said that it's because the rocks thrown were so powerful, ie Goten was so powerful that Gohan felt need to dodge the rocks.

The part where you left out was when Gohan said that the exercise was for him to dodge the rocks to train his speed. He planned to dodge the rocks whether or not he would get hurt by them. Did you expect that the exercise was Goten pelting Gohan with rocks?

After, you took it back and tried to make it sound like you were simply saying that Gohan was surprised by Goten's speed and strength, but that's not all you said.

And bother to lie about this or scream at me for denying it, because I can go look up your post and show it to you. You tried to misdirect me, and it failed.

And here's the quote:



Fact 2. MSS Gohan has to dodge a rock thrown by a Base Goten, that proves Goten's Base is VERY high.




Blatant misdirection. MSS Gohan has to dodge a rock thrown by Goten because that's what he planned to due as a training exercise, and told it to Goten. It has nothing to do with Goten's strength; Gohan planned it before Goten's uber strength was revealed. Gohan was scared of its speed, and dodged it because it was part of a training exercise.





Also, you have to admit that MSSJ being 2x base is ridiculous. That would mean that when Goku was powering up to Korin to 50%, he was really just powering up to base, and that Goku could have just used kaioken times 20 in the cell games to one shot cell and everybody would live.
Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 15 2011, 10:34 PM.
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Saberoph Mar 15 2011, 10:37 PM Post #161
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Quote:
 
For example, you used the part with Gohan dodging Goten's rocks, and said that it's because the rocks thrown were so powerful, ie Goten was so powerful that Gohan felt need to dodge the rocks.

Actually there, I messed up on my point, what I meant was Gohan was shocked and moved the line back because if he hadn't he wouldn't gotten hit.
I even later stated that's not what I meant to say...mistakes happen.
Quote:
 
Also, you have to admit that MSSJ being 2x base is ridiculous. That would mean that when Goku was powering up to Korin to 50%, he was really just powering up to base, and that Goku could have just used kaioken times 20 in the cell games to one shot cell and everybody would live.

Not really, because Goku was powering up to half of his Full Power, the Multiplier can be smaller than SS, it's the powering up that makes up the difference...That's what I've always argued, and still do.

Yes I didn't comment on everything, because if I comment on everything I'll say something that will probably get me suspended, and it sounds like your pushing people to flame you...that makes you a very low human being.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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FPSSJGohan Mar 15 2011, 10:46 PM Post #162
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I was commenting on Lunar's point. He said 2x base with no power ups from there. That' ridiculous; it would mean that 50% Goku on korin's power was really just his base, and that Goku powered up for dramatic effect, and that kaioken times 20 Goku could one shot full power cell.

It sounds like I'm pushing people to flame me? I pointed out a valid point; you messed up on the Goten rocks thing. It's good that you apologized for it. Me making good points like this does not count as flame baiting, because they're valid points. My valid points:

Pointed out your major error in your mssj PL's; you admitted to it in your PL list thread (again, I can search this up if you deny it)
Pointed out that mssj is equal to or greater than ssj (you denied this at first, and again I can search this up if you deny denying it)
Pointed out that you had a typo with your PL's for Piccolo, which you still think is lower than base Goku
Pointed out that Yakon is weaker than Android 17 (your rebuttal misinterpreted the Goku I was mentioning as GT Goku)
Pointed out that Goku > post ROSAT Goten because of Goku expecting Gogeta and Gokhan to be stronger than Buuhan and Buutenks (you haven't responded to this, and quite frankly it's a conclusive argument)

I have not, as you claim, flamebaited. Just because I don't agree with everything you say does not make me a flamebaiter. Arguing a lot does not make me a flamebaiter.
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+ Pyrus Mar 15 2011, 10:49 PM Post #163
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+ ILLusioNaire
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8252463&t=8273322
So what's being said here is that since Kaioshin is supposedly much stronger than Piccolo, and Piccolo is at the Cell Jr level more or less, and since Goku fought Yakon and Vegeta fought Pocus, creatures that Kaioshin wouldn't fight, then that means that Base Goku and Vegeta [Buu Arc] are stronger than not only Piccolo but also SSjin Goten and Trunks? Because it is said that Kaioshin is basically in another dimension of power compared to Piccolo, so he's at least on SSjin Goten's level. By what you guys are saying, if I'm laying down things right here, is that Base Goku is actually stronger than even SSjin Goten, who is close to SSjin Teen Gohan, who is close to Dabra. I don't know guys, lol. Something seems wrong here.

I don't think Base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goten, but I do believe the rest (well, except for Piccolo being on par with the Cell Juniors).
+ ILLusioNaire
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8252518&t=8273322
So to you Base Goku [Buu arc] is stronger than SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta [Cell Game]?

That's how I view it.

Also, why are all my posts being ignored...? Are they so incredibly inaccurate that there's no worth in responding to them, or is it that they're too accurate to respond to, or something in between? Because I don't want to post, then have it ignored only for me to have to post it again two pages later, then have it ignored again.
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Saberoph Mar 15 2011, 10:52 PM Post #164
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 I'm saying I don't see Goku's Base being stronger than MSS Goten Full Power, there's no way it could be.

I believe Goku's Base is the strongest, but Goku's Base is weaker than the MSS'.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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FPSSJGohan Mar 15 2011, 11:02 PM Post #165
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Quote:
 



That's how I view it.

Also, why are all my posts being ignored...? Are they so incredibly inaccurate that there's no worth in responding to them, or is it that they're too accurate to respond to, or something in between? Because I don't want to post, then have it ignored only for me to have to post it again two pages later, then have it ignored again.



I'm sorry, but what? You think that base buu saga Goku is over a hundred times more powerful than his cell games self? That's way too big of an increase, especially for Gohan to think that he has a chance against his dad in base.

Quote:
 
I'm saying I don't see Goku's Base being stronger than MSS Goten Full Power, there's no way it could be.

I believe Goku's Base is the strongest, but Goku's Base is weaker than the MSS'.


Spare me a break. You said that it's common sense that post ROSAT Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku. Common sense. Denying it? I'll look it up.

This is the 4th time you've backed out of a statement and have either claimed a misunderstanding or once you actually apologized, which impressed me.
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