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| Piccolo vs Goten; Piccolo vs Goten | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2011, 06:51 PM (15,116 Views) | |
| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 07:03 PM Post #136 |
 
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I was talking about Gotens Base, I wasn't even comparing his MSS to The Namek, I mean to word it better too...my bad. I do believe MSS Goten is stronger than The Namek, but but Base is not. I meant to say if pre-rosat Base Goten fought The Namek. One question, I keep forgetting which way do you use <> if someone is stronger? |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses. 
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| lunar2 | Mar 14 2011, 07:15 PM Post #137 |
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the big part goes to the big number. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Mar 14 2011, 07:18 PM Post #138 |
WCZE
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No. Babid lured him in because he wanted to see him die. He was a special case. Or are you not referancing my previous statement? @ Saberoph - Oh, well I agree with you. The wording is important isn't it? It's " < " for weaker and " > " for stronger. Edited by Wintergreen5000, Mar 14 2011, 07:20 PM.
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| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 07:25 PM Post #139 |
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Oh yea duh thanks. This is how I have them compared in Base. Gohan>The Namek=Chibi Trunks>Goten. Super Saiyan: Gohan>Chibi Trunks>Goten>TheNamek. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 14 2011, 08:19 PM Post #140 |
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Ok, guys, it's been settled that mssj at full power = >=50 times base. Therefore, we can conclude quite soundly that Piccolo >>>> Goten's base. Piccolo post ROSAT >> Gohan post ROSAT in base. Evidence: 1. Piccolo came in far stronger than Gohan's base. Piccolo actually got more training time than Gohan did, and Piccolo has been shown to have progressed even faster than the saiyans in base. For Gohan's base to have surpassed Piccolo, he'd have to multiply his base several thousand times, literally, in order to overcome Piccolo's kami fusion, which put him above pre rosat ssjs, and the huge improvement that Piccolo would get from the ROSAT. Why would Gohan progress thousands of times faster than Piccolo? It doesn't make sense. 2. Piccolo after coming out of the ROSAT asked Goku if he could beat Cell. Piccolo was confident enough of his abilities to at least consider the possibility. 3. The humans didn't go into the ROSAT because they thought that they would not be a help. Piccolo did, showing that PIccolo thought that he would be a help. Which makes sense, since he was the strongest going in and can train pretty darn effectively. Piccolo only got surpassed by the saiyans because they discovered new forms of ssj to boost them up. 4. Piccolo got a few good hits in against the cell jrs. If he were weaker than Gohan's base, he'd have about as much of a chance of winning as Nail did against Freiza. Gohan post ROSAT cell saga > buu saga Gohan. This is agreed upon. Gohan buu saga > Goten buu saga. Even if you think that they're close, it's agreed that Gohan has at least a slight edge. So therefore: Piccolo post rosat >>>> Gohan base cell saga > Gohan base buu saga >(>>>?) Goten base buu saga. Piccolo could quite literally one shot Goten in base if he wants to; remember that PIccolo was implied to be on par with assj Vegeta, a >50x boost over cell saga saiyan base. >50x factor of a power difference is far beyond one shot territory. Piccolo cell saga >>>> Vegeta buu saga base This is an extension of the conclusion that Piccolo cell saga >>>> Gohan cell saga base. Even if Vegeta slightly surpassed Gohan by the buu saga, in order to have caught up with PIccolo in base he'd have to have increased his power literally a hundred fold, which is ridiculous. Vegeta buu saga base >>>> Trunks buu saga base http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kwTdjMaLUY 1:38 Piccolo is therefore far, far, far more powerful than any of the kids in base, or even Goku and Vegeta in base. Piccolo in his normal form, aka base, is already assj level. To suggest that Goku and Vegeta have increased their base literally over a hundred times to catch up with their assj levels is again ridiculous. Piccolo is weaker than mssj's and on par with ASSJ Vegeta, but far more powerful than even SSJ Goten and Trunks. Even high end Goten and Trunks involve taking on Android 18. Piccolo in the buu saga would curbstomp android 18. Piccolo is vastly underrated in this forum.
What? Are you suggesting then that mssj Gohan is at least 50 times stronger than Piccolo? That's too much of a stretch. Remember that Piccolo and Gohan both went into the ROSAT, and there's no way Gohan could have progressed hundreds of times faster than Piccolo to catch up to and overcome Piccolo in base. PIccolo going in was fused with kami and far stronger than a ssj, Gohan in base would be over 50 times weaker than Piccolo. Piccolo is very effective at leveling up; the Trunks to Android saga shows this.
Where did you get that Piccolo = base Trunks? Piccolo in the buu saga was on par with assj Vegeta. Are you claiming that base Trunks is as powerful as assj Vegeta?
Again, Piccolo was on par with an assj. Trunks and Goten are at most on par with Android 18, at least weaker than OSSJ Goku. Edited by FPSSJGohan, Mar 14 2011, 08:23 PM.
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| Nusu | Mar 14 2011, 08:20 PM Post #141 |
Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.
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Illu. Yeah, was a bit confused there. Kami. Goku did say, that Dabura would make problem´s due to his magic, so yeah, maybe. Edited by Nusu, Mar 14 2011, 08:20 PM.
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Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one. | |
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| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 08:39 PM Post #142 |
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It's not really that much of a stretch since in the Boo arc Goku's Base was higher than The Namek, remember The Namek was weaker than East Kaioshin, but was weaker than Yakon, and Goku fought evenly with him in Base. The Namek wasn't on Ascended Super Vegeta's level, The Namek was equal to #17, who was weaker than Cell, and Imperfect Cell was stronger than that, and Ascended Super Vegeta was made Imperfect Cell look like nothing. For The Namek to increase that much...is beyond insane. Goku and Gohan was Mastering SS, which gave them more stamina, which allowed them to access more energy, so their pl's were constantly increasing, which also increased their Base FAR beyond what was thought possible. So it isn't a stretch that their Bases are that high.
There's no indication that The Namek trained, logically he would be showing Dende how to do his job, since he was the last to have that job.
Again logic dictates that The Namek would show Dende how to do his job. Also for the Gohan vs. Debura fight to be as close as it was, Gohan would have to be pretty close to his Cell Games power, since Goku was comparing Debura to Cell and said Cell gave them problems. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 14 2011, 09:08 PM Post #143 |
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Which would require Goku to have increased his base to assj Vegeta level, meaning that Goku with kaioken times 3 could contend with perfect cell and at SSJ could one shot super perfect cell.
No he wasn't. Piccolo was respecting his position, not his power. The Kai's were severely overhyped. Even Goku thought that they were, as he says, really strong.
This is debatable. The Supreme Kai could have been afraid for Goku.
Goku was actually winning. However, what you're suggesting is that Goku increased his base to assj Vegeta's level in 7 years. Which contradicts your claim of Goten and Trunks being on par with Goku, unless if you think that base Goten could take on and beat ASSJ cell games Vegeta.
Piccolo pre ROSAT was equal to number 17. Post ROSAT he was obviously far stronger.
You do realize that Vegeta went from getting his ***** kicked by Android 18 to being able to own Semi Perfect Cell, right? Piccolo actually has far less to increase, because he started out far, far, far stronger than pre ROSAT SSJ Vegeta. If you think that it's insane for Piccolo to increase that much, explain why Vegeta in freaking canon improved far more than that. And while you're at it, explain why you expect Goten and Trunks to increase their power 50 times in 7.5 days, but Piccolo with a year can't improve half as much as Vegeta with the same amount of time. What's up with you? This is honestly one of the most figuratively blind statements I've seen so far in this thread, no offense. You consider it insane for Piccolo to reach ASSJ levels in the ROSAT, yet Vegeta reached said levels while starting off behind! In canon! Check your facts please.
Do you have any idea what stamina means? By that logic, Android 18 would have been stronger than Vegeta by the buu saga.
So you're saying that ASSJ Vegeta could one shot cell games PIccolo, and that PIccolo was complete trash by the cell games? Even though he also had ROSAT training, started off stronger than the saiyans even in ssj and was a match for a cell jr?
And what else? It won't take 24/7 to train Dende.
Let me put this simply for you: Pre ROSAT Vegeta <<< Pre ROSAT Piccolo Both Vegeta and Piccolo spend a day in the ROSAT. Based on you: Post ROSAT Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post ROSAT Piccolo Do you see the problem here? Piccolo had a headstart on Vegeta, has been shown to improve just as fast as Vegeta if not faster, and had just as long time in the ROSAT. But no, reaching Vegeta's level is insane, according to you! It's not insane, however, for Vegeta himself to reach the levels he has. Piccolo, however, despite having a headstart, can't reach that level, it's insane! You're honestly using a massive double standard, in which you expect the saiyans to improve by ridiculous amounts in the ROSAT while Piccolo would be insane; that's the word you used, to reach what the saiyans reached, despite having a massive head start. Wow. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 09:28 PM Post #144 |
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For starters the Saiyans are known to improve faster then anyone else, look at Gohan in the rosat which you conviently leave out to make your theory and idea sound good. Next time use all the fast not just part of them.
But did he show any fear towards Goku...No. He showed fear towards Debura and Yakon, because he was weaker than them. And Goku fought evenly with Yakon...that's more than enough evidence showing Goku's Base is higher than East Kaioshin's.
Vol 21. Page 95. Goku: Is he that strong Piccolo? Piccolo: Yes. The Difference between us is too great. That sounds like East Kasioshin is stronger than him, and he was weaker than Yakon, and Goku fought evenly with him...looks like Goku's Base is stronger than East Kaioshin.
If Goku was winning then that means his Base is even higher then thought, you just shot yourself in the foot on that one.
It would, because The Namek would be teaching Dende about everything, it doesn't happen over night to learn everything there is to know about being a Guardian. |
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| FPSSJGohan | Mar 14 2011, 09:39 PM Post #145 |
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This is another example of you ignoring what I've stated. Of course, you'll get infuriated and accuse me of accusing you of things that you haven't done. Here's the proof so that you can't deny it: Quotes that I've made - "Piccolo is very effective at leveling up; the Trunks to Android saga shows this." "When, you may ask? In the Trunks saga, PIccolo was below 3 million. By the Android saga, he was in the tens of millions, some argue over 100 million. Vegeta in the Trunks saga was likely below 3 million. By the android saga, he's still far below 10 million." Numerous times; I can list more if you want me to, have I explained to you that Piccolo can improve just as fast as the saiyans. Every time, you ignore me. Go head, scream about me falsely accusing you, because I have the evidence. I'll go through my posts and find the ones in which I've explained this to you. You're also postulating that the saiyans can improve literally over ten times faster than Piccolo can. You say this despite Piccolo surpassing base saiyans in the android saga. You say this despite no evidence supporting it. You say this despite Nameks on average actually being stronger than saiyans. The only ways that the saiyans surpass Piccolo are love of training, zenkais and ssj transformations. The former doesn't really apply since Piccolo is training to save the world, the second sort of phased out after the Freiza saga and ssj transformations aren't being discussed here; we're arguing over Piccolo vs base saiyans. |
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| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 09:53 PM Post #146 |
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And you just proved my point. When your back is against the wall, and when your proven wrong, you ignore what was proven wrong, and try to change it around where the other person is ignoring you and miss your point. You do that all the time, and your the one who hold double standards. When you come up with a theory that's crazy and is impossible, nobody is suppose to appose it, nobody can argue it. Yet when someone else does the same, then it doesn't make sense so it can't happen. Like you bring real world logic into DBZ which defies real world logic, yet when it's time to follow DBZ logic, you refuse to and say it can't happen.
Here's something to go against what you said, Goku and Gohan in the rosat, in a matter of months they increased more than double that The Namek did in the 3 years and merging with Kami. You could show proof, but you would be just proved wrong again like me and everyone else has done. I'm done with you, your's not worth debating, when debating with you it's either your way or no way at all. It just keeps going around and around...I'm happy with what I've proved now, you've been proved wrong by everyone in here, and that's my satisfaction. Edited by Saberoph, Mar 14 2011, 10:10 PM.
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| + Pyrus | Mar 14 2011, 10:36 PM Post #147 |
 
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Yes, he was. You've ignored my other posts in the other topics explaining why Piccolo was weaker. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8183854&t=8239077 http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8248542&t=8273204
No, it's not. Kaioshin suggested teaming up when he previously didn't against PuiPui; against PuiPui, he just said for Vegeta to be careful, so why not say it against Yakon? Also, the Daizenshuu backs up Yakon being more powerful than Kaioshin, but you ignored that as well in my other responses. Edited by Pyrus, Mar 14 2011, 11:18 PM.
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| Saberoph | Mar 14 2011, 10:40 PM Post #148 |
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No Pyro, you gotta put an a at the end of everything, so you can preach to the choir. 
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Batman Arkham Games Discussion. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/ Q&A With Me. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/ Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/ My Broli Idea. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201 Dragon Ball Paramountcy. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/ Intellectual savior of the masses.
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| lunar2 | Mar 14 2011, 11:06 PM Post #149 |
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alright gohan. 1. piccolo was never able to keep up with base goku, except from trunks to androids. why? because he was training with goku. the only possible way for piccolo to have caught up with the ssjs is to have trained with ssj goku. after the 3 year timeskip, he had know ssj to train with, and therefore could not be expected to maintain the gains he had before. you are going to ask for proof, of course, and my proof is this: what was different about that period from all other periods? why was that the only time he made those kinds of gains? 2. you don't know what piccolo's power was during the trunks saga, but it's pretty safe to say that it was over 3 million. the same applies to vegeta. in fact, going by some of vegeta's comments, he seemed to think that he could take frieza. that tells us 2 things, of course. frieza was at his standby power, and vegeta was much stronger than his ~2.5 million from namek. considering that it's been over a year since namek, i don't doubt for a second that they are both well over 3 million. 3. no, it was never stated or implied that nameks were on average stronger than saiyans. thats made up bull your spouting just trying to sound good. 4. it has never been agreed by most people that mssj > ssj multiplier. i think i'm going to stick with saberoph on this one. i'm done with you, your just arguing the same tired things over and over, ven though 1/2 the people on this forum have explained how your wrong. Edited by lunar2, Mar 14 2011, 11:08 PM.
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 14 2011, 11:16 PM Post #150 |
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Also, Gohan made a much better gain in one year training for the Saiyans than Piccolo, so I don't see why he couldn't do it again. Gohan: 1 - post-training: 981 (suppressed) - full power: who knows Piccolo: 408 - post-training: 1,220 (suppressed) - full power: about 2,500 Even using their suppressed power levels, Gohan surpassed Piccolo's gain by 978.1x. Why didn't he multiply his power by 981x each time he trained after that? Probably the same reason Piccolo didn't increase his power at a constant and consistent rate. Edited by Pyrus, Mar 14 2011, 11:18 PM.
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