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ssj2 teen gohan vs lssj broly movie 8
Topic Started: Feb 4 2011, 10:59 PM (4,725 Views)
Destiny
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I'm wondering if Kibito and Kiaoshin could be weaker or stronger then Broly. You put him near Majin Vegeta but not over. Now in my mind I like to believe Kibito and Kiaoshin are weaker then Majin Vegeta. If I am right with that then that would mean they would be around Broly(Movie 10) level. Did I confuse you more?
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Saberoph
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You didn't just wasn't expecting Kibito's name to come up. I see what you mean, it might be possible.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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I don't see how those two would be even close to Broly honestly.
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Destiny
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Why not? Can you explain why?
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I don't see how they would be. Kaioshin was afraid of Dabra, yet Super Saiyan Gohan was evenly matched with him for the most part. That alone is pretty good evidence that Kaioshin was below Super Saiyan Gohan. Kibito, stated to be below Base Gohan by Daizenshuu 7, should then logically be weaker as well.
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yoyepo
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sorry for opening back up an old thread, but the comments i made back in the day when I first saw this thread r way off, and I wanted to state a real argument now that iv looked into it further.

in movie 8, all broly fought were ssj1 characters. The movie was made and released before the cell games battles (goku vs cell) even started in the anime.

looking back at older movies, in tree of might goku was at 30k because the anime only had him at that point saying he's alot stronger and could go kaioken x 10. It does not have him at his power level of 90k seen on Namek. in movie 6, piccolo is fused with kami because dende is guardian, yet he's weaker than ssj goku and vegeta. In the anime and manga, piccolo had yet to fuse, meaning his massive power increase had yet to be seen by the fans, so in the movie Piccolo is strong, but not nearly as powerful as ssjs.

Movie 8 was again released before the cell games. It's obvious that the z fighter's power levels are based off of their training selves and not their cell games selves. for 1, gohan appears to be the weakest among them and is easily taken out. In Cell games, he survives w/ no dmg attacks that would have killed fighters like trunks or vegeta, to cell's shock. In the cell games gohan was scared to fight cell and appeared to panic and sweat bullets at the idea of it. in movie 8 he literally jumped in front of lssj Broly and in multiple sceens flew at him to attack. gohan against cell only defended himself.

This eager attitude is seen on Gohan when training with goku before he's revealed to be insanely powerful, and the audience is lead to believe he's still just gohan. Furtthermore, he doesn't even have his cell games outfit, he has his android saga/classic outfit

Goku before the cell games shocks everyone w/ 50% of his power, so b4 the cell games we're lead to believe he's by FAR the strongest.

So what does this all mean? Basically, everyone else in the movie was much weaker than their cell games displayed powerlevels. This is plainly seen in the movie because Broly can take everyone else out MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than he can goku. In fact, the only time Broly knocks out Goku in the entire movie was w/ a ki blast he charged for 10 seconds and then screamed b4 firing (why dont u just give up scene).

Furthermore throughout the movie, broly is heard in the background beating the z fighters up and launching powerful attacks (for example b4 the famous kamehameha scene, broly clearly launches a massive green blast at goku, which goku staggers out of the smoke of to launch his attack) Despite Broly constantly wailing on Goku, goku keeps on getting back up, and the other z fighters stay down from lesser attacks. GOku is clearly MUCH more powerful than everyone else.

in fact I wouldn't even place goku quite at his power level vs cell, which was a shock to readers when he displayed it, i'd put him slightly under.

Furthermore, at the end of the movie, Broly and goku power up to max. When Broly powers up, he gains a blinking white aura that stays around his body. This is the same aura that trunks had when he went ussj against cell when powering up. This does not indicate they have the same powerlevel, but it does indicate that the artists were LIKELY thinking of the ussj powerup, not a ssj2 powerup, when designing the lssj form. The fact that trunks is unable to get cell's attention w/ his attacks and then in ussj is stronger than him alone shows this level of powerup w/o speed decrease is all broly would need in the movie to do the things he did.

GOku, when he powers up to max w/ vegeta's power, has the same entire screen white blinking aura that fpcell had. Again, this probably means the artists were thinking of him being closer to fpcell's power level than, say, ssj2 gohan's.

Now let's take a look at cell.

during the cell games, against goku, he greatly suppressed his powerlevel. He was still, according to vegeta, one or two steps ahead of goku the entire fight, and he could have let goku eat a senzu bean and still would most likely have won.

When he fights gohan, he must increase his speed to catch him, but his attacks do no dmg to gohan at all. After gohan tells cell about his hidden power, cell attacks him fiercely and his attacks do enough dmg to put gohan down. This shows that against goku cell was not even close to using his SUPPRESSED form's full speed or power.

At the end of the goku vs cell fight, trunks says that now that cell had been weakened, if they threw goku a senzu and then all attacked they could beat cell. This indicated that they all together could not have done this to cell when cell was fresh because trunks would have said so from the beginning. It also indicates that w/o a fresh goku's help, cell would kill them all, which is not surprising considering the fights they had b4 the cell games started vs perfect cell. Yes, vegeta and trunks have gotten stronger, but when cell powered up against goku he became much stronger shocking everyone there.

So it's doubtful if they likely couldn't beat the cell fighting goku together that they could together beat the suppressed cell gohan fought when he was faster and stronger.

Now let's look at fpcell. He had one of the longest most drawn out and impressive power up scenes in all of dbz, and goku was shocked when he saw his power level. Did the authors put all this into a small powerup? No, clearly their intent was to show cell became massively stronger, but Gohan was so powerful it didn't matter.

and why was gohan so strong?

Because he released his hidden power. No, he did not simply turn ssj2 and double his power level, that's never been how it worked, thats just multiplying his current energy that not releasing any hidden power. no matter what form he's in, gohan releases massive amount of energy he usually can't access. He turned ssj2 because of this increase and a change in personality, but that doesn't mean changing form was the only result of the hidden power boost.

in the anime, when gohan first releases his hidden power as a ssj1 b4 sparks start to form, cell believes he's making the same mistake trunks did in powering up, while everyone else is initially shocked at his increase. This may indicate gohan's hidden power increase was around if not stronger than an ussj lvl increase before he even went ssj2.

SO just because ssj2 gohan beat fpcell badly doesn't mean fpcell is weak. Considering how fast cell was before going fp, I doubt in a fight w/ ssj lvl characters that they could even keep track of him. They couldn't b4, gohan was the only one who never lost track of goku and cell in their fight.

So here's my power levels of the movies and cell games using this evidence. it's based on how the characters compare in power level to ssj gohan of the cell games. x1 = as strong as ssj gohan.

movie 8
vegeta .45x
gohan .4x
Goku .85x
Broly (ssj)- .95x
Broly(lssj) - 1.25x
Broly lssj fp- 1.4x
goku ssj (everyone's energy)- 1.65x

Cell games
Goku (warm up) .5x
Cell (warm up) .5x
Vegeta- .65x
Cell junior- 7x
Goku (full power) .9x
Cell (matching) .95x
Gohan( ssj1) 1x
Cell (powered to catch) 1.05x
Cell(seriously attacking to see gohan's power)- 1.1x
Gohan (ssj1 hidden power unleashed) 1.35x
Cell(full power) 1.7x
Cell(weighted) 2.1x
Gohan (ssj2) 2.7x
Spcell 2.7x

Movie 10
ssj2 gohan 2x
lssj broly 2.8x

before you say gohan is stronger than spcell, he guides specifically says his power level rivals gohan's, and jap specifically says gohan tapped into his hidden powers to beat cell.

So i highly doubt movie 8 Broly could beat fpcell let alone any ssj2. movie 10 broly is a different story

And that's my take on it. Sry for a rediculously long post, but my argument has a lot of back story that needed explaining

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Billa
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Thala na Gethu!

As much as I respect you opinion pal, I'd say Teen Gohan takes this. The difference is quite there...
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yoyepo
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and I agree with u, I also said ssj2 gohan takes this. quite easily too. there's a reason he thought he could engage and beat broly and a reason he was shocked he couldn't. Id even go as far to say that Gohan could beat movie 10 Broly in the right situation, for example If Broly and gohan get in a standoff like at the end of movie 10 it could work to gohan's advantage if he becomes enraged and further taps into his hidden power.

and dark pyrus if you're going to dislike my argument, at least tell me why. Furthermore most of this thread has people saying things along the lines of Broly is close to this level but not quite at this level because... he... pwns? some evidence/ reasons why u believe the authors intended him to be beyond fpcell lvl would be nice
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Billa
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yoyepo
May 6 2012, 08:20 PM
and I agree with u, I also said ssj2 gohan takes this. quite easily too. there's a reason he thought he could engage and beat broly and a reason he was shocked he couldn't. Id even go as far to say that Gohan could beat movie 10 Broly in the right situation, for example If Broly and gohan get in a standoff like at the end of movie 10 it could work to gohan's advantage if he becomes enraged and further taps into his hidden power.

and dark pyrus if you're going to dislike my argument, at least tell me why. Furthermore most of this thread has people saying things along the lines of Broly is close to this level but not quite at this level because... he... pwns? some evidence/ reasons why u believe the authors intended him to be beyond fpcell lvl would be nice
Just take it easy pal. I mean, a dislike is not gonna mean your point of view is wrong or somethin. Its opinions & its somethin that not everyone shares mutually...
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yoyepo
May 6 2012, 08:20 PM
and I agree with u, I also said ssj2 gohan takes this. quite easily too. there's a reason he thought he could engage and beat broly and a reason he was shocked he couldn't. Id even go as far to say that Gohan could beat movie 10 Broly in the right situation, for example If Broly and gohan get in a standoff like at the end of movie 10 it could work to gohan's advantage if he becomes enraged and further taps into his hidden power.

and dark pyrus if you're going to dislike my argument, at least tell me why. Furthermore most of this thread has people saying things along the lines of Broly is close to this level but not quite at this level because... he... pwns? some evidence/ reasons why u believe the authors intended him to be beyond fpcell lvl would be nice
ill get to you later broseph. im too tired for a tl;dr right now.
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yoyepo
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if I seemed like I was angry or hurt in my response I'm sorry for wording it poorly because I'm neither, I simply want to know darth's reasoning for disliking my approach to gauging Broly's power level in comparison to lssj Broly (movie 8). Furthermore I want to know why people say Broly is close to a ssj2 in movie 8. He's based off an ussj, not a ssj2. Trunks as an ussj displayed a power level higher than cell, who was so strong ssj trunks could not make him flinch. by that logic, trunks ssj cannot make trunks ussj flinch, proving that if Broly lssj had a powerup even a little bit stronger than an ussj lvl powerup when he went lssj, and didn't lose speed, he'd be able to do everything he did in movie 8(esp. since he was already stronger as a ssj than everyone else). He does nothing impressive enough in my opinion to say he's near ssj2 gohan's level or even remotely close.

so I'm simply curious as to why Broly is thought of by some on this thread as a ssj2 lvl power fighter in movie 8 when I place him beneath fpcell. imo goku end of movie 8 <= fpcell
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Quote:
 
in movie 8, all broly fought were ssj1 characters. The movie was made and released before the cell games battles (goku vs cell) even started in the anime.

Which is why you see Gohan looking so weak compared to Goku, as that's how it had been up until then. Still, it doesn't mean he has to be weaker. Kaio says that Broly could be stronger than "you guys," instead of just Goku, which could mean Gohan is stronger after all. Of course, you should also take a look at the manga, in which case SSjin 2 Kid Gohan had appeared by the time the movie was released. Assuming the movie's plot and storyboards and such had been finalized maybe a month or two beforehand, that would also explain why Gohan appears weaker than his father in the movie - Toei wouldn't have known; hell, even today people deny Gohan being stronger despite the mountain of evidence for it.
Quote:
 
looking back at older movies, in tree of might goku was at 30k because the anime only had him at that point saying he's alot stronger and could go kaioken x 10. It does not have him at his power level of 90k seen on Namek.

Movie 4 did presumably.
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in movie 6, piccolo is fused with kami because dende is guardian, yet he's weaker than ssj goku and vegeta. In the anime and manga, piccolo had yet to fuse, meaning his massive power increase had yet to be seen by the fans, so in the movie Piccolo is strong, but not nearly as powerful as ssjs.

Not necessarily. By the time Piccolo faced Metal Cooler, the latter had regenerated and increased his power majorly twice.
Quote:
 
Movie 8 was again released before the cell games. It's obvious that the z fighter's power levels are based off of their training selves and not their cell games selves. for 1, gohan appears to be the weakest among them and is easily taken out. In Cell games, he survives w/ no dmg attacks that would have killed fighters like trunks or vegeta, to cell's shock. In the cell games gohan was scared to fight cell and appeared to panic and sweat bullets at the idea of it. in movie 8 he literally jumped in front of lssj Broly and in multiple sceens flew at him to attack. gohan against cell only defended himself.

Actually, Vegeta is portrayed as the weakest. Gohan survived more hits in the second round while Vegeta is OHKO'd. Gohan wasn't scared to fight Cell either. He just didn't want to fight.
Quote:
 
This eager attitude is seen on Gohan when training with goku before he's revealed to be insanely powerful, and the audience is lead to believe he's still just gohan. Furtthermore, he doesn't even have his cell games outfit, he has his android saga/classic outfit

He's still a Super Saiyan.
Quote:
 
Goku before the cell games shocks everyone w/ 50% of his power, so b4 the cell games we're lead to believe he's by FAR the strongest.

So what does this all mean? Basically, everyone else in the movie was much weaker than their cell games displayed powerlevels. This is plainly seen in the movie because Broly can take everyone else out MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than he can goku. In fact, the only time Broly knocks out Goku in the entire movie was w/ a ki blast he charged for 10 seconds and then screamed b4 firing (why dont u just give up scene).

He tanked a Kamehameha and you think he couldn't end Goku if he'd actually tried?
Quote:
 
in fact I wouldn't even place goku quite at his power level vs cell, which was a shock to readers when he displayed it, i'd put him slightly under.

Just slightly under? Not a whole lot under? Not half?
Quote:
 
Furthermore, at the end of the movie, Broly and goku power up to max. When Broly powers up, he gains a blinking white aura that stays around his body. This is the same aura that trunks had when he went ussj against cell when powering up. This does not indicate they have the same powerlevel, but it does indicate that the artists were LIKELY thinking of the ussj powerup, not a ssj2 powerup, when designing the lssj form. The fact that trunks is unable to get cell's attention w/ his attacks and then in ussj is stronger than him alone shows this level of powerup w/o speed decrease is all broly would need in the movie to do the things he did.

Toriyama designed Broly.
Quote:
 
GOku, when he powers up to max w/ vegeta's power, has the same entire screen white blinking aura that fpcell had. Again, this probably means the artists were thinking of him being closer to fpcell's power level than, say, ssj2 gohan's.

It doesn't mean the artists were thinking of anything other than making a cool looking aura.
Quote:
 








Now let's take a look at cell.

during the cell games, against goku, he greatly suppressed his powerlevel. He was still, according to vegeta, one or two steps ahead of goku the entire fight, and he could have let goku eat a senzu bean and still would most likely have won.

When he fights gohan, he must increase his speed to catch him, but his attacks do no dmg to gohan at all. After gohan tells cell about his hidden power, cell attacks him fiercely and his attacks do enough dmg to put gohan down. This shows that against goku cell was not even close to using his SUPPRESSED form's full speed or power.

At the end of the goku vs cell fight, trunks says that now that cell had been weakened, if they threw goku a senzu and then all attacked they could beat cell. This indicated that they all together could not have done this to cell when cell was fresh because trunks would have said so from the beginning. It also indicates that w/o a fresh goku's help, cell would kill them all, which is not surprising considering the fights they had b4 the cell games started vs perfect cell. Yes, vegeta and trunks have gotten stronger, but when cell powered up against goku he became much stronger shocking everyone there.

So it's doubtful if they likely couldn't beat the cell fighting goku together that they could together beat the suppressed cell gohan fought when he was faster and stronger.

Now let's look at fpcell. He had one of the longest most drawn out and impressive power up scenes in all of dbz, and goku was shocked when he saw his power level. Did the authors put all this into a small powerup? No, clearly their intent was to show cell became massively stronger, but Gohan was so powerful it didn't matter.

and why was gohan so strong?

Because he released his hidden power. No, he did not simply turn ssj2 and double his power level, that's never been how it worked, thats just multiplying his current energy that not releasing any hidden power. no matter what form he's in, gohan releases massive amount of energy he usually can't access. He turned ssj2 because of this increase and a change in personality, but that doesn't mean changing form was the only result of the hidden power boost.

in the anime, when gohan first releases his hidden power as a ssj1 b4 sparks start to form, cell believes he's making the same mistake trunks did in powering up, while everyone else is initially shocked at his increase. This may indicate gohan's hidden power increase was around if not stronger than an ussj lvl increase before he even went ssj2.

SO just because ssj2 gohan beat fpcell badly doesn't mean fpcell is weak. Considering how fast cell was before going fp, I doubt in a fight w/ ssj lvl characters that they could even keep track of him. They couldn't b4, gohan was the only one who never lost track of goku and cell in their fight.

So here's my power levels of the movies and cell games using this evidence. it's based on how the characters compare in power level to ssj gohan of the cell games. x1 = as strong as ssj gohan.

movie 8
vegeta .45x
gohan .4x
Goku .85x
Broly (ssj)- .95x
Broly(lssj) - 1.25x
Broly lssj fp- 1.4x
goku ssj (everyone's energy)- 1.65x

Cell games
Goku (warm up) .5x
Cell (warm up) .5x
Vegeta- .65x
Cell junior- 7x
Goku (full power) .9x
Cell (matching) .95x
Gohan( ssj1) 1x
Cell (powered to catch) 1.05x
Cell(seriously attacking to see gohan's power)- 1.1x
Gohan (ssj1 hidden power unleashed) 1.35x
Cell(full power) 1.7x
Cell(weighted) 2.1x
Gohan (ssj2) 2.7x
Spcell 2.7x

Movie 10
ssj2 gohan 2x
lssj broly 2.8x

before you say gohan is stronger than spcell, he guides specifically says his power level rivals gohan's, and jap specifically says gohan tapped into his hidden powers to beat cell.

So i highly doubt movie 8 Broly could beat fpcell let alone any ssj2. movie 10 broly is a different story

And that's my take on it. Sry for a rediculously long post, but my argument has a lot of back story that needed explaining


The producer stated Broly was made to be the strongest Saiyan up to that point, which would include SSjin 2 Kid Gohan.
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yoyepo
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Which is why you see Gohan looking so weak compared to Goku, as that's how it had been up until then. Still, it doesn't mean he has to be weaker. Kaio says that Broly could be stronger than "you guys," instead of just Goku, which could mean Gohan is stronger after all. Of course, you should also take a look at the manga, in which case SSjin 2 Kid Gohan had appeared by the time the movie was released. Assuming the movie's plot and storyboards and such had been finalized maybe a month or two beforehand, that would also explain why Gohan appears weaker than his father in the movie - Toei wouldn't have known; hell, even today people deny Gohan being stronger despite the mountain of evidence for it.


it doesn't matter that ssj2 gohan was revealed in the manga, time and time again in the movies in terms of strength it's been shown to be more based off anime timeline, and by that I mean that someone could be revealed to be more powerful already in the manga, but if it hasn't been shown in the anime it likely wont make it into the movie, probably just because when they actually write the storyline for the movie it's way before they offf course finish it. THats my point with movie 3. In manga goku had already been revealed to be much stronger than 30 k, but thats wasn't seen yet in the anime, so its not seen in the movie.

Quote:
 
Movie 4 did presumably.


movie 4 takes place when goku is fighting frieza, yet goku probably has his 90k power level

Quote:
 
Not necessarily. By the time Piccolo faced Metal Cooler, the latter had regenerated and increased his power majorly twice.


i still highly doubt cooler would have been strong enough to take out the ssjs with a ki blast. And if piccolo was stronger, he would have stepped in to fight cooler in stead of goku. and the movie stresses the power of the ssjs, i doubt piccolo is as strong as they r.

Quote:
 
The producer stated Broly was made to be the strongest Saiyan up to that point, which would include SSjin 2 Kid Gohan.


the idea in the movie was that broly at the time of the movie was the strongest ssj. if gohan had been ssj2 in the movie than he'd be included. He was not.

Quote:
 
He's still a Super Saiyan.


doesn't mean he's anywhere near his cell games power level. again goku took so many hits from broly and kept getting back up, he was so much more durable its rediculous.

Quote:
 
It doesn't mean the artists were thinking of anything other than making a cool looking aura.


It's not a cool looking aura. its blinking white every cpl seconds. If they wanted a cool aura, they could have given them lightning. and it's just more evidence that they were thinking of fpcell when gauging broly's strength, not ssj2s. I doubt broly is even close in power to a ssj2 in movie 8.

Quote:
 
He tanked a Kamehameha and you think he couldn't end Goku if he'd actually tried?


If broly went max power and attacked of course, but that could be said of every dbz villain ever.

Quote:
 
Just slightly under? Not a whole lot under? Not half?


I state this and Ill get blasted by brolytards every time

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Toriyama designed Broly


correct. designing the original model for broly doesn't mean he didn't talk w/ other people about how to draw him and portray him animated in the actual movie
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HersheyDux
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LSSjin Broly (m10) >>> SSjin 2 Gohan (m10) >> SSjin 2 Gohan (Cell Games) > SPC >> LSSjin Broly (m8)

Gohan is stomping, IMO
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yoyepo
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LSSjin Broly (m10) >>> SSjin 2 Gohan (m10) >> SSjin 2 Gohan (Cell Games) > SPC >> LSSjin Broly (m8)

Gohan is stomping, IMO


said multiple times in the show that the gohan this movie is completely based off of (Gohan ssj2 at the world tourney, seen in scans taken from the manga and redrawn in the movie) was weaker than b4. and this is before it was even stated yet again at the tournament when he went ssj2 that he is much weaker. Gohan only states he was stronger than before in movie 10, and in movie 8 gohan is much, much weaker than goku and therefore incomparably weaker than his cell games power level.

At the cell games he also tapped into a HUGE amount of his hidden power because cell was slaughtering mockingly everyone he knew. He shouldn't have been nearly as mad or powerful against Broly.

ssj2 goku>>Movie 10 Broly >= ssj2 kid Gohan= Spcell >>>ssj2 gohan (movie 10)>>movie 8 super powered ssj goku>=FpCell>Movie 8 lssj Broly>buu saga ssj goku>awakened ssj gohan (cell games)>>ssj Broly (movie 8)>ssj Gohan(cell games)>ssj Goku (Cell games)

Gohan is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger than goku was when he defeated Broly. Gohan rofl stomps
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