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MSSJ Multiplier?; Please answer this question.
Topic Started: Nov 14 2010, 05:02 PM (3,512 Views)
deploy
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p123
 
Yes logically Kaioken could increase say 200 fold, hell 2,000 fold why not? It doesn't matter though, increases are determined by the plot which is determined by the creator.
I doubt the Kaioken would increase that high, I mean, you'd explode from the inside out or something :o_O: . IMO the Kaioken couldn't surpass SSJ and that's pretty much it, Goku is not a dumb fighter, he knows what he has at his disposal. Saying AT forgot about it just isn't good enough for me.
Edited by deploy, Nov 16 2010, 05:45 PM.
"My country is the world... and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, 1737-1809
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You know when Toriyama made Super Saiyan he had a 10x increase in mind, lol. So it would've been lower than Kaio-ken x20 anyway.
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p123
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Well like I said, if you don't like the out of story answer that's fine, I have provided several in story explanations as well. Is up to you which one you wanna rock with. Lol.
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Let me first say that I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying better.
p123
 
1) 5x increase in weights
2) Gohan/Vegeta seem to have no qualms about fighting in base, and seem to have no regard over Piccolo.
3) Dabura literally implies Base Saiyans > Piccolo, even if they are suppressed, the implication is there.
4) The Killi system
5) The amount of shine the Base Saiyans get. I mean they get alot and I mean a TON of facetime. We haven't seen the base saiyans get this much airtime since the Freeza Saga.
OK here goes:
1. who? what? I don't get it (and I'm to lazy to search the manga for the meaning of this, so if you care to elaborate)
2. Z fighters not being afraid of Piccolo during the world tournament is fair
3. What Dabra says is irrelevant
4. The Killi system is irrelevant
5. Also irrelevant, they didn't fight in base.

Although the implication that base saiyans >= Piccolo is there it is not really necessary, Piccolo may be stronger and they never actually gave it a real thought, or maybe they just didn't care since none of them came with the intention of winning the tournament. It makes more sense and is more likely to be the truth than Kaioken > Oozaru > SSJ which is really far fetched IMO.
"My country is the world... and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, 1737-1809
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I'm not getting the weights thing either.
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p123
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I think your missing the big picture deploy. It's not so much about one single issue. Hell each issue can be easily explained why it does NOT mean SSJ is a smaller boost.

The point is, all of these things, are heavy implications to one thing.


For instance...


Goku with the weights, could have been increased 10 fold hell 50 fold. Easily done by AT with a movement of the pen. It's highly questionable why he would blatantly be thinking 50x boost, when he only shows a 5x boost in strength in weights.

The killi system, alot people say hey it could work differently. It doesn't matter, if you simply take the most logical route, SSJ boost isn't all that big. Not meant to look to thoroughly into.

Vegeta/Gohan confidence in base. As simple as it gets.

Dabura is actually sensing their suppressed powers. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's just another hint,

Base Saiyans > Piccolo. Flat out. It's not meant to be scrutinized to the end of earth. Taken most simply it's easy to read.

The base saiyans get more attention than they got in a few pages than they ever got since achieving SSJ. This is just another not taken too seriously easy to read situation.



Look, in the Freeza Saga, you have one incident that implies over a 40x boost.
One FREAKING FIGHT!!!!!!!

In the Buu Saga you have like 5 implications about base strength.


Why would one fight, overrule 5 things? Especially when the 5 things contradict that 1 thing, and come way later. Things change man. It has been 11 years since Freeza.


If you can't see it what the big picture is here, we are going to have to call it a stalemate. It's not about every little detail, think on a larger scale. Think about AT writing those scenes, and don't twist around logic in an awkward way. It's right there.


Erase the Freeza/Cell arcs. Tell me what you think the Buu Saga boost is. It sure as hell isn't implied to be 50x that's for sure.
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I'm still not getting the weights thing.
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p123
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The weights thing is just a hint.

Goku in base is training with 1 ton weights or something. Then another kai comes to North Kai and is bragging about how his fighter will beat Goku. Then King Kai says oh yea, Goku will kill your guy, put 5 ton weights on him. The other Kai obliges, Goku gets dragged down by the new 5x heavier weights and begins to fall. Turns SSJ and is easily working out with them.

It's just a little hint . IMO if SSJ was truly a 50x boost AT could have easily made the added weights 50x heavier instead of 5x. Then with the killi system, Piccolo inferiority issues, it makes sense for it to be 5 and not 50x.
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p123
 
Why would one fight, overrule 5 things? Especially when the 5 things contradict that 1 thing, and come way later. Things change man. It has been 11 years since Freeza.
Why? Cause facts overrule implications, plain and simple.


OK, how about this another theory.

Let's say base saiyan's power does increase, but in a different way, not as directly. And let's say it's not through achieving SSJ, but only through mastering it, a saiyan learns how to manipulate his Super Saiyan powers to a such degree that he can access portions of it, even when in base (I hope I'm making sense).

This would make base a lot stronger and it would appear as if the multiplier has decreased when it really hasn't.

SSJ would still be base x50, whilst base would be base, but with portion of his SSJ power at disposal

Oozaru would be base x10, so SSJ > Oozaru

Kaioken is not used for the same reason it's not used while in SSJ (only Goku knows what the reason is, I guess SSJ power + Kaioken = something *****ed up, lol)


What do you think?
"My country is the world... and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, 1737-1809
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lunar2
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that works, as long as by buu saga, apparent base is approx. 1/3 ssj2
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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Hey Lunar, I explained the Base Saiyans , SSJ Teen Gohan issue. Did you not read it yet? I also have a good theory on the power Buu is needed to be awaken. It's a pretty good theory one of my better ones I think. But we can get to that after.

Let's finish the Dabura/Badibi, Base Saiyans, SSJ2 Teen Gohan filling up Buu's meter thingamajic.

Are you aware of my explanation of that? It should be on the bottom of page 2 I believe.
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lunar2
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i read it, i just think dabura was actually sensing them, and not just guessing. dabura knew they were there, and knew they were suppressing their power. i'm sure dabura and babidi both knew how much energy was needed, and, after experiencing spopo and yamu, surely didnt just guess how powerful everyone was, they had a general idea of what they were up against, it was just a little too general. as for the weights, didnt goku make a comment about them being too easy as a ssj, therefore implying a greater than 5x increase in strength?
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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I still don't know how the Base Saiyans are only 1/3 of Super Saiyan 2.
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p123
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Lunar your theory makes no sense when Dabura/Badibi crap themselves when Vegeta is mandhandles Pocus.

Dabura did not expect a power stronger than Pocus. Thinking that Pocus x3 would equal SSJ2 Teen Gohan is silly.

Dabura is simply confused into thinking that mere weak humans filled up Buu's pod halfway. It wasn't humans, it was actually SSJ2 Teen Gohan.

So that's why there is confusion. Badibi/Dabura have no idea that the Gohan before them, was the actual one to fill up half their jar.
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