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MSSJ Multiplier?; Please answer this question.
Topic Started: Nov 14 2010, 05:02 PM (3,514 Views)
lunar2
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DbzHybrid
Nov 15 2010, 03:49 AM
It makes no sense for them to get less of a multiplication.

Their base would have to be made ***** strong to do that.

Gohan got weaker by Buu saga yet the difference in power between base Teen Gohan (Cell Games) and Teen Gohan SSJ2 is enormous.

I really dont get what your all talking about. Their dont get that insanely strong.
Multipliers increase not decrease.

See when you master SSJ it becomes MSSJ. You cant push and further so in order to reach a higher power you need a new ascension- SSJ2. Then to go higher again- SSJ3.

All the multipliers stack on top of each other making it a bigger multiplier not a smaller one.
than explain why base gohan goku and vegeta have more energy between them than gohan ssj2. gohan isnt THAT much weaker than goku and vegeta. the only possible explanation is that ssj doesnt multiply your power at all, it adds to it. and yes, mssj adds more power than regular ssj, but by that point, base is so powerful that the ssj transformation just isnt that big of a deal. its a big deal, but not a 50x deal. more like a 2 or 3. thats why piccolo was able to catch up to ssj goku and vegeta by the android saga. he went from 1.5 million against frieza, to several hundred million against gero, and he has no transformations to back that up, just pure old fashioned training. that because by this point ssj is still adding around 150-160 million to their pl, then comes mssj which adds much more, maybe even 500 million, or more than 3x as much as ssj. then, when gohan goes ssj2, it doubles his ssj pl and just about triples his base.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Ryebrid
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So your saying Gohan SSJ multiplier is 1x ...?

MSSJ improves the multiplier above 50x and goes however further higher until they each reach their limit. Gohan MSSJ lvl is higher. They break that limit by transforming.

Say Gohan MSSJ was 75x base, then when he goes SSJ2 lets say its a 10x multiplier.
Gohan = (base x 75) x 10 = SSJ2


I dont know what your talking about with the Babidi thing.
It doesnt prove anything towards their multiplication. Killi isnt energy
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lunar2
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why does everyone keep bringing up killi? i didnt say anything about killi. when babidi and dabura were outside the ship, they noted that goku, gohan and vegeta together had enough energy to finish awakening majin buu. gohan ssj2 only brought buu up to about half, and the three of them were in base, suppressed. ring any bells? or did you forget about the whole conversation right before kibito got blasted and krillin and piccolo got petrified.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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That doesnt prove anything.
They both didnt even know how strong they were. Babidi's jaw was dropped in all the fights.

If Dabura thought he was stronger than Gohan but Gohan was only SSJ then they thought someone weaker then Dabura could resurrect Majin Buu.
But we know at that lvl of power if would take a long time.
Only when Goku and Vegeta went SSJ2 did they really start to get energy pumping in.

Gohan didnt train for 7 years so how can he improve? By your standards the more someone improves the lower the power increase. If you say Gohan got a lower SSJ multiplier in the Buu saga then that makes no sense in your logic.

Their multiplier increases not decreases.
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lunar2
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DbzHybrid
Nov 15 2010, 06:21 AM
That doesnt prove anything.
They both didnt even know how strong they were. Babidi's jaw was dropped in all the fights.

If Dabura thought he was stronger than Gohan but Gohan was only SSJ then they thought someone weaker then Dabura could resurrect Majin Buu.
But we know at that lvl of power if would take a long time.
Only when Goku and Vegeta went SSJ2 did they really start to get energy pumping in.

Gohan didnt train for 7 years so how can he improve? By your standards the more someone improves the lower the power increase. If you say Gohan got a lower SSJ multiplier in the Buu saga then that makes no sense in your logic.

Their multiplier increases not decreases.
use it or lose it, gohan didnt train for seven years, didnt transform, didnt DO much of anything, so his transformations got weaker more or less in line with his power loss. it makes perfect sense, when you take the preconception of a multiplier out of your mind. there is no multiplier, it is all addition. ssj namek goku is 3,000,000 base +147,000,000 trans = 150,000,000 ssj, not 3,000,000 base x 50 trans = 150,000,000 ssj. no other race in the z universe multiplies their power with a transformation, so why should saiyans? and why would the transformation give the same bonus to every fighter that uses it? and if the three of them were suppressing their power outside babidi's ship, which we know for a fact that they were, then it makes sense that babidi and dabura would be surprised when actually seeing them fight.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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Lunar I explained the Dabura situation. Base Goku/Gohan/Vegeta do not have enough power to equal SSJ2.

Dabura/Badibi thought Spopovich and Yamu got all that energy from regular humans. Dabura assumed that if they could get so much energy from ordinary humans, surely these three " elite " humans would finish off the job.


@ DBZ HYBRID


No one if forcing you to believe in a decreasing boost. But there are plenty of logical/plausible theories out there. At the end of the day, it's all about if you take the Buu Saga implications about Base Saiyans seriously. If you don't, I honestly wouldn't waste your time. This is an issue that the fandom is split on, and there is little f switching sides.

Implications....

1) 5x increase in weights
2) Gohan/Vegeta seem to have no qualms about fighting in base, and seem to have no regard over Piccolo.
3) Dabura literally implies Base Saiyans > Piccolo, even if they are suppressed, the implication is there.
4) The Killi system
5) The amount of shine the Base Saiyans get. I mean they get alot and I mean a TON of facetime. We haven't seen the base saiyans get this much airtime since the Freeza Saga.


All of these things imply uber strong base saiyans...


The problem is....


Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan


And Teen Gohan is implied to be at least as strong if not stronger than Piccolo in Base.


So if Base Kid > Base Teen > Piccolo, there has to be some reason that base got so strong. When we look at the Cell Games, the only option to make that work is to assume that MSSJ is the factor responsible for the base saiyans strength.


Now , alot of people don't like these implications, and prefer the Freeza Saga logic, but this is the Buu Saga, things change what can I say. There is no way in hell that the Buu Saga implies a 50x boost. If you never knew of the 50x boost in the Freeza Saga, and you read DB for the first time, Buu Saga being the first chapter, SSJ boost being very small would be the only logical thought.


So in the end, it's more about people getting stuck on the Freeza Saga logic, and the SEG and various guides, moreso than really following the manga. The manga is the only place that counts. In the Freeza Saga, SSJ isn't even suggested to be 50, it could be 50, but 40+x would work. It's just an influence by the Daiz, being the reasoning why everyone supports the 50x boost. So all in all, it's alot of outside influences effecting the situation. But misinformed fans is one of DB's biggest things, thanks to a creator who seems forgetful and doesn't like to keep his fans aware of what he is trying to imply.
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First of all, sticking so hard to Babidis estimation is ridiculous, starting a debate if Babidi can sense power levels would be even more ridiculous (just sayin').

True = Babidi didn't even know that the energy Yamu and Spopovich brought was Gohans, in his mind, the two weak fools went away to suck out some energy from lots of people and ended up filling half the "jar".

Quote:
 
no other race in the z universe multiplies their power with a transformation, so why should saiyans?
It's true that nothing was ever said about SSJ multipliers, but Vegeta clearly stated that while in Oozaru, saiyans power is increased 10 fold = UNRIVALED FACT. :p

So now what? Are you saying that SSJ2 form (Boo arc) < Oozaru form or what? (holy ***** :o_O: )

To lunar2 and p123: Of course saiyans power is multiplied (and by a lot), otherwise (by using your math) Goku could of fight Majin Vegeta in base using Kaioken and rape.

nuff said
Edited by deploy, Nov 15 2010, 08:45 PM.
"My country is the world... and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, 1737-1809
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lunar2
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nah, kaioken has a limit, the stress of even a kaiken x1 at that power could tear your body in half, and you are right about oozaru, my bad.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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Yes, I think Oozaru is stronger than SSJ and yes Kaioken is stronger than SSJ/SSJ2 by my book. Does that suck , sure of course it does. But it is more about AT being a jerk than anything.

AT completely does not acknowledge Kaioken after Freeza. It's like it never happened. Two Sagas later, I doubt he is even thinking about it. Kaioken has been done for a long time.

But we know this can be logical. Base Gotenks is implied to be uber powerful, which a ridicolously small SSJ boost ( 2-3times ). Logically Kaioken x20 Gotenks would blow nearly everyone out of the water.


So yes I think kaioken x20 is much stronger than SSJ/ and a bit stronger than SSj2.


Also I have oozaru stronger than SSJ as well. This is another forgotten power up it seems.


So IMO AT throws these increases out the window, and makes them stronger than forms that were previously stronger (wow ) with reckless abandon.


Kaioken > SSJ is one of the major reasons why people don't believe the SSJ multiplier decreased. I understand this logic, and used to be agreeance with it, but I can't help what the author implies, and I take implications seriously, whatever the cost may be.


But I do understand your issue with that, believe me, it's an irritating thing and just sucks of course.
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lunar2
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i personally dont like "the author thought this, or the author forgot that" arguements, because i like to keep the discussion within the bounds of the db world, or whatever the subject may be. for oozaru, its more powerful than ssj later on, but it is unusable, we all saw during vegeta's flashback what happens when a ssj turns oozaru. planets get destroyed, and the saiyan kills themselves during their mindless rampage. just like i said above, by this point, kaioken has become unusable, because of the extreme strain it would put on the body.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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Ok, yea I have in story explanations as well as out of story explanations. This is one of the few cases I feel it's more about AT just writing the manga as he goes along, and not really thinking of the repurcussions. I think that is more realistic than for AT to have an explanation ready to go about how to explain that you know? I don't think AT is drawing those base saiyan strength implications and thinking in the back of his mind about how he previously said Oozaru was this big, and Kaioken was this big. He was overworked, and probably hated his life IMO. Also Im sure he was distracted by that great vision of his, the bubblegum monster fighting a kid with long hair and no eyebrows. Lol ( Herms quote ) .


In story I will give it a shot.

1) Oozaru is not applicable anymore. It is not a factor. Some could suggest that SSJ can not be reached with the tail. That removing the tail is an evolutionary step for saiyans. Which would explain why we only see non tailed SSJs, and why the Tailed Saiyans were so relatively weak.

2) Goku completely dropped Kaioken after SSJ. He never trained it anymore, and SSJ is a superior form at the time. SSJ maintains his energy much better and is much more effective than Kaioken. Everytime Goku uses a max Kaioken, he gets completely drained, and it's not even that effective. Goku using a max Kaioken is unable to finish Vegeta/Freeza even though his power should be close to them. We know Kamehameha is at least a 2.2x multiplier. So something fishy is going on with the Max Kaioken Kamehameha. It's just not effective, drains Goku to a point were he is defenseless, and not to mention is a highly dangerous technique. Goku is not like Tien, he doesn't want to use these life threatening techniques and rather rely on his natural SSJ powers. So Goku stopped training Kaioken after Freeza, and seeing how Gohan gets weaker without training, logically a technique that hasn't been trained in over 10 years would get weaker as well.


What do you think about that ?
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lunar2
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that works, except for the flashback of the big yellow monkey. also, a kamehameha wouldnt be as powerful during a kaioken, because some of the users focus and ki go into maintaining the kaioken. using 2 power-ups makes each less effective than if only one was used, although the end result may still be more powerful.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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deploy
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IDK this may be a filler (I'm to lazy to check it out), but even Tien says that Goku should be able to withstand higher Kaoiken now that he's stronger.
The stronger Goku is, handling the Kaioken gets easier, I thought this was clearly made obvious during the Freeza saga.

p123
 
Ok, yea I have in story explanations as well as out of story explanations. This is one of the few cases I feel it's more about AT just writing the manga as he goes along, and not really thinking of the repurcussions. I think that is more realistic than for AT to have an explanation ready to go about how to explain that you know? I don't think AT is drawing those base saiyan strength implications and thinking in the back of his mind about how he previously said Oozaru was this big, and Kaioken was this big. He was overworked, and probably hated his life IMO. Also Im sure he was distracted by that great vision of his, the bubblegum monster fighting a kid with long hair and no eyebrows. Lol ( Herms quote ) .


In story I will give it a shot.

1) Oozaru is not applicable anymore. It is not a factor. Some could suggest that SSJ can not be reached with the tail. That removing the tail is an evolutionary step for saiyans. Which would explain why we only see non tailed SSJs, and why the Tailed Saiyans were so relatively weak.

2) Goku completely dropped Kaioken after SSJ. He never trained it anymore, and SSJ is a superior form at the time. SSJ maintains his energy much better and is much more effective than Kaioken. Everytime Goku uses a max Kaioken, he gets completely drained, and it's not even that effective. Goku using a max Kaioken is unable to finish Vegeta/Freeza even though his power should be close to them. We know Kamehameha is at least a 2.2x multiplier. So something fishy is going on with the Max Kaioken Kamehameha. It's just not effective, drains Goku to a point were he is defenseless, and not to mention is a highly dangerous technique. Goku is not like Tien, he doesn't want to use these life threatening techniques and rather rely on his natural SSJ powers. So Goku stopped training Kaioken after Freeza, and seeing how Gohan gets weaker without training, logically a technique that hasn't been trained in over 10 years would get weaker as well.
Or you could just be wrong and multipliers are actually that high.

And btw, what implications are you talking about?
"My country is the world... and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine, 1737-1809
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p123
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Lunar that is the anime. No Golden Monkey is ever shown in the manga. I really only deal with canon material, so on my end, as far as Im concerned, that never happened. So my theory would still stand at least canon wise.




Yes logically Kaioken could increase say 200 fold, hell 2,000 fold why not? It doesn't matter though, increases are determined by the plot which is determined by the creator.

Any time you see crazy increases, it's just a plot device. Many of them are not neccessary and are not logical, they just are, because the story requires people to get stronger. So that is out of story but it's true.
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