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MSSJ Multiplier?; Please answer this question.
Topic Started: Nov 14 2010, 05:02 PM (3,513 Views)
Naruto-Gogeta
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Omega Shenron

We all know that SSJ is a 50X increase, but somebody said on YouTube that when you reach MSSJ it becomes a 100X increase. I personally think that that is absolute bull*****. Could somebody clear this up for me?
The blonde girl with the black lips turned to Valkyrie.
"We know," she said. "We've seen the future. We know you're going to kill the world..."

Release it Gohan! Release everything! Remember all the pain he's caused... The people he's hurt... NOW MAKE THAT YOUR POWER!!!!

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lunar2
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no, as the series moved on, ssj began giving less of a bonus, not more. this is shown by ssj2 gohan having less energy than base goku gohan and vegeta when goku and vegeta are about 50% stronger than gohan. that comes from ssj2 gohan only having about 40% of the energy needed to awaken buu, but the three of them in base had the other 60%. so ssj2 for gohan during the buu arc was only about 3x base.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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I have it as a 5x increase. The weights point to a 5x increase. The killi system points to less, but Goku is implied to be suppressed. Also numerically it adds up for Base Saiyans > Piccolo to be realized that a small boost like 5x is needed to accomplish this.

But it's not like a 5x boost. It's more like a SSJ reaching his full potential and then dividing that by 5. So MSSJ dictates base, not the other way around.


In my theory, base gets uber strong to accomadate the newer forms that are now avaliable. base cannot support 100x 200x 400x multipliers. It would be too much of a strain on the base saiyan, who is the root of all the power. So base if forced to jump in power to accomadate these new forms , SSj2/SSj3.
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Naruto-Gogeta
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lunar2
Nov 14 2010, 05:22 PM
no, as the series moved on, ssj began giving less of a bonus, not more. this is shown by ssj2 gohan having less energy than base goku gohan and vegeta when goku and vegeta are about 50% stronger than gohan. that comes from ssj2 gohan only having about 40% of the energy needed to awaken buu, but the three of them in base had the other 60%. so ssj2 for gohan during the buu arc was only about 3x base.
I don't really think SSJ can give less of a bonus. It will always multiply somebody's base power by 50 fold no matter what, unless you get a special exception like Ultimate Gohan.
The blonde girl with the black lips turned to Valkyrie.
"We know," she said. "We've seen the future. We know you're going to kill the world..."

Release it Gohan! Release everything! Remember all the pain he's caused... The people he's hurt... NOW MAKE THAT YOUR POWER!!!!

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JOIN MY BOXING FORUM NOW! http://s4.zetaboards.com/Boxing_Forum/index/

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p123
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That's only possible if you do not take the Buu Saga Base Saiyan implications seriously.

Check this out. Imagine if there was no Freeza/Cell sagas. And the Buu Saga would be the first saga in the series. No way would you think SSJ was a 50x boost. In the Buu Saga the boost is implied to be smaller.

And I think your misunderstanding what I am saying. The boost doesn't get smaller. Base just gets uber strong. I don't know if that is explaning it any better though, let me know if that isn't as clear as I think.
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lunar2
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p123
Nov 14 2010, 06:00 PM
That's only possible if you do not take the Buu Saga Base Saiyan implications seriously.

Check this out. Imagine if there was no Freeza/Cell sagas. And the Buu Saga would be the first saga in the series. No way would you think SSJ was a 50x boost. In the Buu Saga the boost is implied to be smaller.

And I think your misunderstanding what I am saying. The boost doesn't get smaller. Base just gets uber strong. I don't know if that is explaning it any better though, let me know if that isn't as clear as I think.
what you are saying is mssj becomes base, and base becomes a suppression form that is 20% as powerful right?

and the ssj boost doesnt drop any imo, it was never a true multiplier. it only increased goku's power to approx 50x his base, and as they become more powerful, ssj might give more power, but the percentage or multiple increase is much smaller. like i said, by buu arc, ssj2 is only mutiplying base by 3x, it was made pretty clear by babidi and dabura's conversations.
Edited by lunar2, Nov 14 2010, 09:20 PM.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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You are talking about Goku's SSJ rating on the killi system. They never displayed a SSJ2 rating, only a SSJ rating...

So logically

Yakon 800
SSJ 3000


Although logically Goku was actually suppressed there. Remember Vegeta is unaware of Goku's advantage over him until the SSJ2 burst. But logicall all forms correlate. So Goku was suppressing in Base/SSJ until SSJ2, where he tried to supress it because his power isn't stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan, because it would have been noted, which it wasn't. So Goku when transforming into SSJ2, let out a little more power than he would have liked as he was suppressing probably for Vegeta's pride or soemthing . Lol.

Later Vegeta admits he was able to judge by the rate of increase, that he expected SSJ2 Goku to be stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan. So it's not really the burst that bothered Vegeta, it's the rate of increae the burst progressed that bother Vegeta.

Like I said, for the Buu Saga, you have to basically forget everythng else accpet SSj2 Kid Gohan's strength. The rest is useless. AT went all haywire and decided to change everything . If you don't agree that base is strong, it's probably because you refuse the notion no matter wht logic. I have about 5-10 things that imply base saiyan strength to be so high, but you have probably heard it all before, and it would waste our time, and end in a stalemate anyway.


But in my opinin the Buu Saga Base Saiyans implicatins are to be taken seriously. And override Freeza Saga logic, as that was the past, and this is the present.

But you can;t honestly say that if you never heard of the Freeza/Cell Arcs and you read Db for the first time and read the Buu Saga first, that you would think that the SSJ boost is 50x. Nothing in the bUu Saga implies this, it's more or less the guides, or Freeza logic that influences you to think it is impossible to change. But MSSJ is a whole different level of power, and opens up other forms. Base needing to be strenghted to support all of these oncoming forms is a plausible idea.


But we will probably stalemate, if you are strong against changing the 50x boost.

So guess we gotta agree to disagree on that.
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lunar2
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i'm not saying about the killi system. i'm saying that ssj2 gohan had 40% of the energy that was needed to awaken buu, but the 3 base saiyans had enough power between them to make up the difference so base gohan+goku+vegeta> ssj2 gohan or as i see it 10+15+14=39> 30
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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I don't know where you got that from....

Pocus vs Vegeta = Damage Acquired = Zero
Goku vs Yakon = zero
Dabura vs Gohan = Zero


So they never got any damage , which means they never got any energy for Buu;s Ball... The other half (52%) needed was acquired all from SSJ2 Goku's damage.




But you might be talking about Dabura saying that these three will surely fill up the ball to babidi right? yea I think that's what you mean. But honeslty that's a what were you thinking moment in the Buu Saga...


Babidi/Kaioshin/Dabura are all completely shocked when Vegeta beats Pocus.


So Dabura's statemetn suggests that three powers lower than Pocus would be equivilant to SSJ2 Gohan's power?


IMO this is failed writing at it's best. What's your take on that?
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+ Pyrus
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I usually have it at 8-10x. I don't know. Just seems to fit with me.
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lunar2
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p123
Nov 14 2010, 09:47 PM
I don't know where you got that from....

Pocus vs Vegeta = Damage Acquired = Zero
Goku vs Yakon = zero
Dabura vs Gohan = Zero


So they never got any damage , which means they never got any energy for Buu;s Ball... The other half (52%) needed was acquired all from SSJ2 Goku's damage.




But you might be talking about Dabura saying that these three will surely fill up the ball to babidi right? yea I think that's what you mean. But honeslty that's a what were you thinking moment in the Buu Saga...


Babidi/Kaioshin/Dabura are all completely shocked when Vegeta beats Pocus.


So Dabura's statemetn suggests that three powers lower than Pocus would be equivilant to SSJ2 Gohan's power?


IMO this is failed writing at it's best. What's your take on that?
if they were suppressing there power, it might make sense, and they were suppressing their power, but babidi and dabura must be exceptional at sensing energy. but that would make the ssj forms even weaker so that gohan 50%=5 goku 50%=7.5 and vegeta 50%=7 so 5+7.5+7=19.5 and ssj2 gohan equals 20, meaning ssj2 at this point is only double base.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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If Badibi and Dabura were so great at sensing ki they wouldn't have been shocked when Pocus was killed. It's just an illogical thought there's no explaining it, it's just a flubup.


Well the Base/MSSJ gap is dependant on Piccolo. I don't know if you have ever done power levels, but the MSSJ are not 10x stronger than Piccolo. Also there is nothing that suggest 10. Killi suggest 3.45 or something and the weights issue suggests 5x. Figuring Goku was supressing for the killi makes sense. However the weights is another issue.


So it's dependant on various things you know? That's what is so hard, I mean you have to have Base Goku Cell games stronger than Piccolo Cell Games, which is crazy but hey, what else can we do?
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lunar2
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p123
Nov 15 2010, 12:16 AM
If Badibi and Dabura were so great at sensing ki they wouldn't have been shocked when Pocus was killed. It's just an illogical thought there's no explaining it, it's just a flubup.


Well the Base/MSSJ gap is dependant on Piccolo. I don't know if you have ever done power levels, but the MSSJ are not 10x stronger than Piccolo. Also there is nothing that suggest 10. Killi suggest 3.45 or something and the weights issue suggests 5x. Figuring Goku was supressing for the killi makes sense. However the weights is another issue.


So it's dependant on various things you know? That's what is so hard, I mean you have to have Base Goku Cell games stronger than Piccolo Cell Games, which is crazy but hey, what else can we do?
one, why does base goku have to be stronger than piccolo at the cell games? 2, you say to take everything that the characters in the manga say seriously, but disregard the conversation between babidi and dabura as a writing error. you cant have it both ways. you use old kai's statements to justify a small increase in power for gokan, then throw away babidi's and dabura's analysis of the saiyans power because it doesnt fit your model. sorry, but if gokan is just barely stronger than buutenks, than ssj2 is a 2 or 3x over base, its both or neither.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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p123
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Well can you explain it. Im not throwing it away, I just don't understand it....



Dabura says these three are the strongest of the group. Implying Base Saiyans > Piccolo.


Then Dabura says, that these three will be able to fill up the rest of the jar...


Then Dabura can't believe it when Vegeta beats weak ***** pocus.


Ah, I got it figured out...


Dabura/Badibi think that Spopovich and Yamu got the power from humans. Dabura/Badibi aren't aware that is was SSJ2 Gohan who filled up the jar. They thought a bunch of humans filled it up.


So Dabura seeing that these three humans were very strong, assumed that a bunch of weak humans filling it up halfway, surely these three strong humans should finish filling up the other half.


And Wala just like that I figured it out. wooo!
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+ Ryebrid
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It makes no sense for them to get less of a multiplication.

Their base would have to be made ***** strong to do that.

Gohan got weaker by Buu saga yet the difference in power between base Teen Gohan (Cell Games) and Teen Gohan SSJ2 is enormous.

I really dont get what your all talking about. Their dont get that insanely strong.
Multipliers increase not decrease.

See when you master SSJ it becomes MSSJ. You cant push and further so in order to reach a higher power you need a new ascension- SSJ2. Then to go higher again- SSJ3.

All the multipliers stack on top of each other making it a bigger multiplier not a smaller one.
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