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| Roman vs Spartan armies | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 27 2010, 11:17 PM (2,906 Views) | |
| Bouncefox | Jul 2 2010, 04:41 PM Post #16 |
"What's this? More wolves hungry for the blood of Almire?"
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Indeed, the Spartans need some sort of defense here. I really can't provide any actual facts from my head; all I recall from my World History course Freshman year is that Spartans fought in Phalanxes, and had pwitty helmets that covered their entire face. I think they used spears and shields...not sure. Must Google. Edited by Bouncefox, Jul 2 2010, 04:41 PM.
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Try this, you might like it. | |
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Jul 22 2010, 09:56 AM Post #17 |
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Keep in mind the Spartans were humiliated by the Sacred Band of Thebes, an all-gay elite unit of homosexual lovers. 300 of them defeated an army of Spartans about three times their size and were only finally defeated by the father of Alexander the Great. Even then they fought to the last man and Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses "heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, exclaimed, "Perish any man who suspects that these men either died or suffered anything unseemly." Let's see them make a "300" where the Spartans get beaten by a smaller force of Theban homosexuals.  Not to mention the Roman army was more advanced and better organized. We saw Rome vs. Sparta kind of happen in the Roman conquest of Greece, we all know how badly the Greeks and Macedonians were crushed. Rome would win this easily. Greece was a Roman province for ages for a reason. Edited by SaiyanPrincess, Jul 22 2010, 10:00 AM.
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| * Sousen Ichimonji | Jul 22 2010, 05:48 PM Post #18 |
You are calm and reposed, let your beauty unfold
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In my opinion maybe we should pay more attention to the fact that the Spartan's were defeated by an elite unit rather than the fact that those elites happened to be homosexual. You make a good point though, although it might be worth investigating how the battle actually progressed; the most powerful of men can be betrayed by their footing. Maybe the Theban's were defending a key position or something. As I've said before the Roman's conquered a shadow of Sparta's former glory. This would be a highly redundant topic if we were discussing those battles, as the outcomes speak for themselves. Sparta's armies at the height of it's power, leading the men of free Greece, vs Rome, is what we're discussing. And I think it would be far closer than we're giving the Spartan's credit for. |
 Call me a safe bet, I'm betting I'm not I'm glad that you can forgive, only hoping as time goes, you can forget | |
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Jul 23 2010, 05:22 AM Post #19 |
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Then these debates are always irrational. Sparta at its prime would still be technologically and tactically behind Rome simply because its prime was centuries before Rome's existence. You say they conquered a shadow of Sparta's former "glory", but it was effectively a triumph of Roman tactics, organization, and equipment over their Greek counterparts and the phalanx. Sparta at the height of their power would be even more backwards since you'd have to go further back in time. And the men of free Greece? An ironic term when speaking of a Spartan society that subsisted entirely on an economy of slavery. So is this now ALL of Greece under Sparta fighting Rome? Because that's not as fair of a fight. Ultimately, the Roman Legion proved superior to the Greek Phalanx and Hoplite. It doesn't matter what time period you insert Sparta from, especially since, as I said, if you bring in Sparta at its prime it's even more technologically and tactically primitive than Sparta circa Roman defeat. The more flexible Roman tactics and better armament for hand to hand combat combined with the effective use of elephants, the superiority in cavalry and the successful high and lower command resulted in the victory of the legion over the phalanx and Greek infantryman. If we're assuming that they we're using time machines to bring in the best Roman leaders and best Spartan leaders and giving them equal technological and tactical knowledge and equivalent equipment and weapon quality, then I'd dare venture that the Persians in the form of Cyrus the Great or Shapur the Great could crush both of them. Xerxes was after all the weakest and most foolish of the Eastern kings. Cyrus was one of the best military commanders in human history and Shapur consistently humiliated the Romans. Though maybe the Macedonians at their height with Alexander at their helm would crush all of the above, assuming your videogame logic and ignoring the tactical inferiority of the Greek phalanx and hoplite to the Roman legionary. Edited by SaiyanPrincess, Jul 23 2010, 05:26 AM.
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| + Pelador | Jul 24 2010, 12:30 AM Post #20 |
Crazy Awesome Legend
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Well if we're going to bring other civs into the fight then what about Ghengis Khan and his Mongol hordes vs the Romans? |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Jul 24 2010, 02:55 AM Post #21 |
WCZE
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Are you kidding me? Khan's armies would stomp. Ever play Total War? Horse Archers will kick the crap out of Roman armies on an open field, especially if backed up by infantry. If there's a capable general on the field it'll be a curbstomp. Just my opinion though. |
 
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| + Pelador | Jul 25 2010, 01:47 AM Post #22 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Yes I did used to play Total War a lot. But that's a bit of a stupid game with some very overpowered units. Medieval Total War My entire army got wiped by one Spanish King. On the expansion pack, six vikings took out my entire army of 5000. The second game was bugged more in favour of the player so you could wipe out entire armies with three battalions of archers. The Romans would have dealt with horse archers many times before. However, none as skilled and as well trained as the Mongels. Also, Ghengis Khan was a military Genious so that helps too. Much more so than Ceaser. |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Jul 27 2010, 03:33 AM Post #23 |
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WCZE
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I don't see how six vikings can kill 5 thousand men. |
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| + Pelador | Jul 28 2010, 01:24 AM Post #24 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Neither did I. That's why I hacked the game and changed the values of all the units. Now when I play it's much more fair. |
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| * Sousen Ichimonji | Jul 29 2010, 10:26 AM Post #25 |
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You are calm and reposed, let your beauty unfold
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I <3 Berzerkers, but Total War is ****ed up, and that's why I'm not going by the gameplay and statistics of that game for my analysis here... |
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Call me a safe bet, I'm betting I'm not I'm glad that you can forgive, only hoping as time goes, you can forget | |
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| + Pelador | Jul 30 2010, 12:05 AM Post #26 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Yeah, you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe any of those units were actually that underpowered or overpowered. E.g Horsemen do not always beat archers in real battles, one man cannot defeat an army and it doesn't take a year to move 1 man from Cornwall to Devon. Fun battles when it's not glitching though. |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Jul 30 2010, 03:07 AM Post #27 |
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WCZE
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Total War aside, horse archers are still fast and maneuverable projectile units. It only takes one arrow to bring the average man down. The Romans have their testudo formation, but sheer defense alone does not win a battle. |
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| + Pelador | Jul 31 2010, 12:30 AM Post #28 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Well remember they have many more formations than just the testudo. I'm almost certain they would have dealt with horse archers before and likely had a brilliant strategy to deal with them. My knowledge of the Romans is not great but it seems from what I've read that they only ever got beaten by guerilla fighters. All the open battles often led to a Roman Victory. |
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