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Bojack(max power) vs Broly
Topic Started: Apr 18 2010, 10:48 PM (3,234 Views)
Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

Ussj Future Trunks
Aug 21 2010, 05:06 AM
" big dog´s are Goku, Gohan, Piccolo"
PICCOLO? hes miles behind the other 4.

"rosat proven, By Daizenshuu"
dont mean its true. gohan is painfully obvious non post rosat. mid rosat at best. like right after haircut but before he became stronger than say, piccolo or vegeta. because he obviously is not the strongest z fighter in movie 8 even though he should be. and hes not fpssj even though he should be.

"how is it that Gohan punched through his flesh with a single blow?
because gohan put his fury and power into that hit and ended it quickly. he could have easily done the exact same thing to fp perfect cell.

"And again, Broly wasn't killed by them; he was pushed by them into the sun"
is that why his heart explodes BEFORE he hits the sun? how he was unable to free himself and deflect the wave for millions of miles? two ssj1s >> broly. the sun just finished him off. and if he came back? well goku would just come back again and go ssj2 on his *****.

" Goku and Gohan went SSjin 2 at the final push"
goku cannot be ssj2. ive explained this. he cant be a form that doesnt exist yet when the movie was made.

"there is no proof, no statements that Broly became weaker at the end of Movie 8."
1. he had a hole not fully healed on his stomach. 2
2. in a coma for 7 years. even a zenkai wont boost his power after not doing anything for that long.
3. killed by a weakened ssj1 right after beating him at full power. and then again, killed by two ssj1s right after beating a supposed ssj2.

i say killed in movie 8 because the dumbass writers obviously did not think there would be a movie 10 (broly exploded then was crushed by a comet.).

"There is no way that base Saiyans could give Goku enough power to defeat Broly. That is impossible."
it happened on my computer screen. you are finally seeing the *****stain that is movie 8 logic.

"Zet Senshi were giving Goku Super Saiyan-tier powers"
so you can give ssj powers while not being in ssj and beaten half to death?

"Are you also saying that once Gohan went back to base after defeating Cell that he lost a great deal of power? "
yes. he put absolutely everything he had into killing cell. that means his power level was almost 0 when he collapsed. but the thing is, when goku is in buu saga, he has mastered ssj to the point where transforming into it DOES NOT cut their energy. therefore he doesnt need to constantly be ssj. but its not the case with ssj2 or 3.

"LSSjin Broly [fresh and at full power], "
thats why my logic states he WAS NOT fresh and full power. i dont think that. you do.

"Broly was actually able to find a pod"
vegeta was beaten half to death, hit by a spirit bomb, crushed by a monkey and nearly ran through with a sword and STILL managed to get back to the empire.

goku had a hole in his shoulder gushing blood when he defeated piccolo jr. these here dbz peeps are stronger than you think.

" myself think so. "
one reason why i think broly beating ssj2 adult gohan was not impressive. hell i dont think dabura was taking him seriously at all during his fight with gohan. he was having as much fun with gohan as broly was.

"but that is what happened"
the power levels are all wrong for it to be post rosat. gohans the weakest out of all of them when he should be the strongest. goku was hurt and drained after his fight with perfect cell, but cell was taking gohan pretty seriously and gohan was barely even hurt. so if gohan were serious and willing..he would have put up a better fight than his father. he was obviously serious and trying his hardest against broly but appeared weaker than piccolo.

"Understand that Broly is far more powerful than any of them, and this is what allowed him to make them seem as if nothing."
but he isnt. he was killed easily. he appeared stronger because he was going all out and draining himself gradually. goku took a much worse beating vs broly but gohan went down to half dead base in one hit. the power levels are out of wack so much that i dont think its post rosat. mid rosat at best.

"Notice that after Movie 8 Gohan is now the established hero because he beat Cell"
but thats a ridiculous plot device and one more reason why the movies dont fit the story. gohan appears weaker than piccolo even though at this point in the timeline we should know that 50% of gokus power is more than trunks and vegeta's power. and gohan is in the same form, stated as better than ussj. so why then does he appear so damn much weaker than goku? answer? not post rosat.

"Heck, Goku and Gohan combined"
yeah how would goten add anything? hes weaker and more useless than piccolo or 18. if they showed up instead of goten and trunks, it would be slightly better. and why do you think vegeta wasnt in movie 10? he was obviously far superior to gohan's ssj2, stated at the dabura fight.

and yes it was enough to break the ki shield. why do you think broly's heart exploded, or the fact he couldnt push back the two waves? and goku wasnt ssj2. you cant be a form that doesnt exist yet. thats one reason why gohans weaker than piccolo in movie 8. you cant have a power you dont have yet even if toriyama knows you have it but your not showing it. gohan should be stronger than goku in movie 8 but hes not. goku should be ssj2 but he obviously didnt need it.
You ignore the fact that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT. This PROVES that Gohan is Post-RoSaT.

I agree with Nusu. Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch.

First of all, 1 SSjin 2 Teen Gohan got ****curbed by Broly. You think two SSjins are going to do anything against him?? Give me a break. Goku and Gohan had to be SSjin 2s in order to do that. You should watch the movie again, because Broly's heart doesn't explode until after we see the Kamehameha impact the sun.

Volume 22/38 came out in 1994 which shows SSjin 2 Goku. If anything, SSjin 2 Goku was the apple of Toriyam's eye at the time.

You assume that a zenkai will not occur after a long period of healing? Did it not occur to you that at one point the Saiyans didn't have rejuvenation chambers? Does that mean Zenkais only came on the scene for Saiyans when they started buying rejuvenation tanks and healing quickly? No, as I said, no proof that Broly got weaker, only stronger.

But he wasn't crushed and killed by a comet...

I've always seen the stain that is Movie 8 logic. I just try to make the most sense out of it. To me, the creators were trying to convey that it took the combined super Saiyan powers of the Zet Senshi in order to defeat Broly. Just like in Movie 4, which is also mostly unexplainable. Obviously, it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug. That was the idea they were trying to get across, despite the fact that we know they wouldn't have been able to do it in reality. So in my mind I treat it like they were at full power when they really weren't...to try and make sense out of it.

First of all, they weren't beaten half to death. As seen after Planet Vegeta explodes they are all in the spaceship looking fine and normal. They were hardly near death. Second of all, yes, I do think that they were giving Goku Super Saiyan energy. Not only would you not be able to explain Broly's defeat otherwise, but I think it's totally possible. Notice when Vegeta gives Goku energy that a golden aura appears for a second? It's possible that they were able to access this power without transforming into it and give it to Goku. That part is theoretical of course, but there is the logic argument behind it as well.

Then why is Gohan able to fight with Dabra who is equal to Cell who is close to SSjin Kid Gohan? He hardly lost any power at all, and if anything only due to the fact that he stopped training. It wasn't because he lost power after he went back to base. Therefore, MSSjins don't lose their power after going back to base. So, Goku and Gohan were still MSSjin level in Movie 8.

You're saying that LSSjin Broly was not at full power when he fought Goku?

Yeah, but Vegeta called his pod to him for one, so he didn't have to go anywhere. Two, his life was not hanging in the balance of a few seconds; Goku let him leave. And three, despite all that abuse, he didn't have a hole through his body, which would've leaked out a TON of blood.

No proof that Dabra was toying around with Teen Gohan. And no proof that Gohan was SSjin 2 when he was fighting Dabra. Actually, there is only proof that he isn't. If you think about it, there is no reason for Dabra to have toyed with Gohan. His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu. Toying with Gohan would defeat the purpose.

Actually, if you take a look at the fights, no one was doing well against Broly. Broly was so much more powerful than everyone you wouldn't be able to tell who was stronger. They all were thrown aside like trash, perhaps with the exception of Goku to an extent. But as I said ealier, I think Movie 8 used the Gohan from before the Cell Game that all had at that time assumed to be weaker than Goku. So under this logic they made their movie. That's why Goku is the main hero in Movie 8 and Gohan is not. As demonstrated with SSjin Type 2 Vegeta, he could've put down any one of them with a single blow if he wanted. But we all know Kakarot was special. The fact that he survived longer may have been due to the reason that Broly wanted to see him suffer. If he can stand up to Goku's Kamehameha Wave unscathed then he could've beaten Goku in one blow.

Are you kidding me USSj? Broly was not going all out. I don't see how you can even arrive at that conclusion. If you just watch the movie you'll see he was easily taking them out. And Broly cannot drain himself. Perhaps he could if he put all his energy into one attack, but he'd gain his power back again in a small amount of time.

As I said earlier. Piccolo is Post-RoSaT. You cannot deny that, and you cannot deny that Goku and Gohan exited the RoSaT before Piccolo even entered. Again, Goku was portrayed as the main hero. That's why he kept getting up. Gohan was portrayed as the weaker because before the Cell Game Gohan was thought to be the weaker, or not yet shown to be the stronger. Under this logic did they create the movie.

Vegeta was defeated in one blow. Does that mean he's a lot weaker than Piccolo? Broly was taking them out as he wished, selectively if you will.

Goten did contribute to Broly's defeat. He was there to show Gohan that he was going to support him. Why Vegeta wasn't in Movie 10 though is beyond me. There is no proof that Vegeta [pre-majin] was even stronger than SSjin 2 Kid Gohan. After Goku transforms into SSjin 2 Vegeta says "You're stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. Impressive." It was a feat to be stronger than Kid Gohan's SSjin 2. And Vegeta had to take the Majin seal just to rival Goku. Beforehand, I doubt he was stronger than SSjin 2 Kid Gohan. I believe he was more or less on the same level, which SSjin 2 Teen Gohan was not too far behind himself. If Vegeta was on the scene he would've made things more interesting, but he would've still have gotten jacked up.

You need to watch the movie again. It did not break the ki shield. If it didn't break the ki shield on impact, which it didn't, then there is no way that it would've done so later. The Sun is what broke Broly's ki shield and killed Broly. The Kamehameha was just the means by which to get him there. Not that Goku, Gohan, and Goten intended for that to happen; it just did. And by the way, Movie 8 was released around the time Goku and Complete Cell were fighting. Similar to how you put it, how can Gohan be stronger than Goku in Movie 8 when it has not been shown that he is in the story? :)
Edited by Wintergreen5000, Aug 21 2010, 04:29 PM.
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"You ignore the fact that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT."
yes i do. its never established. he even appears stronger than gohan in the movie since he lasts longer in the fight.

"Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch"
how do you know? did you ask him?

" SSjin 2 Teen Gohan got ****curbed by Broly"
a curbstomp would be not even budging broly. gohan overpowered broly using just strength vs strength in the strangehold scene.

"You think two SSjins are going to do anything against him?? Give me a break"
yes. because gohan was clearly ssj1 in the struggle. he had two bangs, not the ssj2 style one bang. and goku doesnt have the rigid hair nor has to struggle to transform. he usually yells during the anime buu saga even for ssj2 against kid buu. gohan understandably yells cos he hasnt done it for 7 years.

"no proof that Broly got weaker, only stronger."
you mean the other way around.

"You assume that a zenkai will not occur after a long period of healing"
he didnt fully heal which seemed to be a requirement in frieza saga. you can clearly see hes still hurt from the punch.

"But he wasn't crushed and killed by a comet..."
no. he was dead before that. in movie 8. and yes he was in fact dead. unless you want me to believe that he was indeed supposed to survive exploding after the punch when they animated it.

"it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug."
slug was weakened by the whistling and was caught off guard. broly was not.

"First of all, they weren't beaten half to death"
they are so weakened, they didnt go ssj before giving their energy. meaning goku is 200 times weaker than he could be if they gave their ssj power, not base power. in fact they were barely awake and looked really banged up.

" Notice when Vegeta gives Goku energy that a golden aura appears for a second?"
rofl your logic is worse than movie 8s. so vegeta was giving 50 x his base power while being in base, but with a golden aura? please. he wasnt transformed, which is only when the multiplier applies. your ignoring basic dbz logic.

"Therefore, MSSjins don't lose their power after going back to base."
so they just keep their 50 x multiplier after giving absolutely every drop of energy they had to spare to beat the toughest villain in history? no gohan was not mssj any more. but his power stayed there. just like how goku is obviously not weaker than he was against cell when he fights pikkon. the only thing is, now that they have been mssj for so long, ssj doesnt eat up ki any more. thats my logic. they dont need to be mssj to access the power it granted them against cell. but if they want to completely reduce the ki consumption...

"So, Goku and Gohan were still MSSjin level in Movie 8."
no. they were never mssj in the movie timeline. since gohan was only ever mssj when he was in piccolo's outfit and stronger than every other z fighter. clearly the movie was made before mssj was discovered and gohan got that new outfit.

"You're saying that LSSjin Broly was not at full power when he fought Goku?"
im saying he was. but that doesnt mean he wasnt playing around.

"No proof that Dabra was toying around with Teen Gohan"
watch the fight again and come back.

"no proof that Gohan was SSjin 2 when he was fighting Dabra"
look at the hair. the same as it was vs broly. if you want to beleive he was ssj2 vs broly...then he indeed was against dabura. so how can you say no proof?

" His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu."
was he pounding on gohan? didnt seem to be trying too hard to do so. more interested in cutting him in half.

"Aug 21 2010, 12:06 AM
" big dog´s are Goku, Gohan, Piccolo"
PICCOLO? hes miles behind the other 4.

"rosat proven, By Daizenshuu"
dont mean its true. gohan is painfully obvious non post rosat. mid rosat at best. like right after haircut but before he became stronger than say, piccolo or vegeta. because he obviously is not the strongest z fighter in movie 8 even though he should be. and hes not fpssj even though he should be.

"how is it that Gohan punched through his flesh with a single blow?
because gohan put his fury and power into that hit and ended it quickly. he could have easily done the exact same thing to fp perfect cell.

"And again, Broly wasn't killed by them; he was pushed by them into the sun"
is that why his heart explodes BEFORE he hits the sun? how he was unable to free himself and deflect the wave for millions of miles? two ssj1s >> broly. the sun just finished him off. and if he came back? well goku would just come back again and go ssj2 on his *****.

" Goku and Gohan went SSjin 2 at the final push"
goku cannot be ssj2. ive explained this. he cant be a form that doesnt exist yet when the movie was made.

"there is no proof, no statements that Broly became weaker at the end of Movie 8."
1. he had a hole not fully healed on his stomach. 2
2. in a coma for 7 years. even a zenkai wont boost his power after not doing anything for that long.
3. killed by a weakened ssj1 right after beating him at full power. and then again, killed by two ssj1s right after beating a supposed ssj2.

i say killed in movie 8 because the dumbass writers obviously did not think there would be a movie 10 (broly exploded then was crushed by a comet.).

"There is no way that base Saiyans could give Goku enough power to defeat Broly. That is impossible."
it happened on my computer screen. you are finally seeing the *****stain that is movie 8 logic.

"Zet Senshi were giving Goku Super Saiyan-tier powers"
so you can give ssj powers while not being in ssj and beaten half to death?

"Are you also saying that once Gohan went back to base after defeating Cell that he lost a great deal of power? "
yes. he put absolutely everything he had into killing cell. that means his power level was almost 0 when he collapsed. but the thing is, when goku is in buu saga, he has mastered ssj to the point where transforming into it DOES NOT cut their energy. therefore he doesnt need to constantly be ssj. but its not the case with ssj2 or 3.

"LSSjin Broly [fresh and at full power], "
thats why my logic states he WAS NOT fresh and full power. i dont think that. you do.

"Broly was actually able to find a pod"
vegeta was beaten half to death, hit by a spirit bomb, crushed by a monkey and nearly ran through with a sword and STILL managed to get back to the empire.

goku had a hole in his shoulder gushing blood when he defeated piccolo jr. these here dbz peeps are stronger than you think.

" myself think so. "
one reason why i think broly beating ssj2 adult gohan was not impressive. hell i dont think dabura was taking him seriously at all during his fight with gohan. he was having as much fun with gohan as broly was.

"but that is what happened"
the power levels are all wrong for it to be post rosat. gohans the weakest out of all of them when he should be the strongest. goku was hurt and drained after his fight with perfect cell, but cell was taking gohan pretty seriously and gohan was barely even hurt. so if gohan were serious and willing..he would have put up a better fight than his father. he was obviously serious and trying his hardest against broly but appeared weaker than piccolo.

"Understand that Broly is far more powerful than any of them, and this is what allowed him to make them seem as if nothing."
but he isnt. he was killed easily. he appeared stronger because he was going all out and draining himself gradually. goku took a much worse beating vs broly but gohan went down to half dead base in one hit. the power levels are out of wack so much that i dont think its post rosat. mid rosat at best.

"Notice that after Movie 8 Gohan is now the established hero because he beat Cell"
but thats a ridiculous plot device and one more reason why the movies dont fit the story. gohan appears weaker than piccolo even though at this point in the timeline we should know that 50% of gokus power is more than trunks and vegeta's power. and gohan is in the same form, stated as better than ussj. so why then does he appear so damn much weaker than goku? answer? not post rosat.

"Heck, Goku and Gohan combined"
yeah how would goten add anything? hes weaker and more useless than piccolo or 18. if they showed up instead of goten and trunks, it would be slightly better. and why do you think vegeta wasnt in movie 10? he was obviously far superior to gohan's ssj2, stated at the dabura fight.

and yes it was enough to break the ki shield. why do you think broly's heart exploded, or the fact he couldnt push back the two waves? and goku wasnt ssj2. you cant be a form that doesnt exist yet. thats one reason why gohans weaker than piccolo in movie 8. you cant have a power you dont have yet even if toriyama knows you have it but your not showing it. gohan should be stronger than goku in movie 8 but hes not. goku should be ssj2 but he obviously didnt need it. You ignore the fact that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT. This PROVES that Gohan is Post-RoSaT.

I agree with Nusu. Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch.

First of all, 1 SSjin 2 Teen Gohan got ****curbed by Broly. You think two SSjins are going to do anything against him?? Give me a break. Goku and Gohan had to be SSjin 2s in order to do that. You should watch the movie again, because Broly's heart doesn't explode until after we see the Kamehameha impact the sun.

Volume 22/38 came out in 1994 which shows SSjin 2 Goku. If anything, SSjin 2 Goku was the apple of Toriyam's eye at the time.

You assume that a zenkai will not occur after a long period of healing? Did it not occur to you that at one point the Saiyans didn't have rejuvenation chambers? Does that mean Zenkais only came on the scene for Saiyans when they started buying rejuvenation tanks and healing quickly? No, as I said, no proof that Broly got weaker, only stronger.

But he wasn't crushed and killed by a comet...

I've always seen the stain that is Movie 8 logic. I just try to make the most sense out of it. To me, the creators were trying to convey that it took the combined super Saiyan powers of the Zet Senshi in order to defeat Broly. Just like in Movie 4, which is also mostly unexplainable. Obviously, it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug. That was the idea they were trying to get across, despite the fact that we know they wouldn't have been able to do it in reality. So in my mind I treat it like they were at full power when they really weren't...to try and make sense out of it.

First of all, they weren't beaten half to death. As seen after Planet Vegeta explodes they are all in the spaceship looking fine and normal. They were hardly near death. Second of all, yes, I do think that they were giving Goku Super Saiyan energy. Not only would you not be able to explain Broly's defeat otherwise, but I think it's totally possible. Notice when Vegeta gives Goku energy that a golden aura appears for a second? It's possible that they were able to access this power without transforming into it and give it to Goku. That part is theoretical of course, but there is the logic argument behind it as well.

Then why is Gohan able to fight with Dabra who is equal to Cell who is close to SSjin Kid Gohan? He hardly lost any power at all, and if anything only due to the fact that he stopped training. It wasn't because he lost power after he went back to base. Therefore, MSSjins don't lose their power after going back to base. So, Goku and Gohan were still MSSjin level in Movie 8.

You're saying that LSSjin Broly was not at full power when he fought Goku?

Yeah, but Vegeta called his pod to him for one, so he didn't have to go anywhere. Two, his life was not hanging in the balance of a few seconds; Goku let him leave. And three, despite all that abuse, he didn't have a hole through his body, which would've leaked out a TON of blood.

No proof that Dabra was toying around with Teen Gohan. And no proof that Gohan was SSjin 2 when he was fighting Dabra. Actually, there is only proof that he isn't. If you think about it, there is no reason for Dabra to have toyed with Gohan. His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu. Toying with Gohan would defeat the purpose.

>Actually, if you take a look at the fights, no one was doing well against Broly
base gohan. ssj trunks. ssj2 gohan. slightly powered up ssj goku. base goku (against rssj broly). ssj goku, ssj gohan, ssj goten (kill broly).

"Broly wanted to see him suffer."
then why did broly have a frustrated look as goku withstood his blows?

" he can stand up to Goku's Kamehameha Wave"
rofl every villain has. raditz deflected a kamehameha. OMFG HE MUST BE SO *****ING STRONG! OMFG HE ONLY LOST COS GOHAN HEADBUTTED HIS WEAK SPOT! RADITZ'S POWER IS MAXIMUM!

"Broly was not going all out"
because he was winning with ease? so your saying super perfect cell wasnt fully powered? kid buu? nappa?

"Broly cannot drain himself. Perhaps he could if he put all his energy into one attack, but he'd gain his power back again in a small amount of time. "
bull. no saiyan can just replenish energy out of their *****. not to mention zero proof. if the fight was as one sided as you think, there would be no need for the "constantly rising and replenishing" crap. small amount of time? constantly rising and it took him 30 years to reach perfect cell level. oh well done lol. so broly can drain. if he was in a difficult fight or if he held himself back.

"You cannot deny that, and you cannot deny that Goku and Gohan exited the RoSaT before Piccolo even entered."
again gohan looks so much like mid rosat its hilarious. and he should be at least as strong as trunks but he appears weaker than piccolo. and this is after ssj gohan fights ssj goku to a standstill in the chamber. right before goku discovers that mssj is the best way to get stronger. vegeta and trunks are clearly post rosat, but goku and gohan and piccolo, i seriously doubt.

"Vegeta was defeated in one blow. Does that mean he's a lot weaker than Piccolo"
no. because he opted to fight broly alone. instead of teaming up with the others. piccolo withstood multiple hits and kept coming back. but gohan and vegeta just lost the plot and were crushed faster than the others. the power levels are all wrong for this to be post rosat. theres no reason for piccolo to be so strong. hell if this indeed was pre cell games and goku = mssj goku, then why are they like holy ***** (including with gohan) when they fight cell? didnt they just see gohan and goku use full power on broly? conclusion, cell games z fighters and movie 8 z fighters ARE NOT THE SAME. and this is including when goku demonstrates 50% full power and its much more impressive than trunks ussj. even trunks is like "holy ***** on a sandwitch, im weak." but in movie 8, trunks did no worse than goku. piccolo even after rosat, should be miles behind the others especially vegeta. as vegeta scoffed that piccolo did not increase much.

""You're stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. Impressive."
alright. but ssj2 vegeta would win against kid gohan. sometimes experience and superior training and skill can close a power gap. not the case with goku, as vegeta soon realised that his own ssj2 would not be able to defeat goku's ssj2. he states himself "no amount of training could make up for your natural talent for battle".

"which SSjin 2 Teen Gohan was not too far behind himself."
vegeta thought teen gohan was pathetic, and that he himself could beat dabura in five minutes. teen gohan would get rapestomped by the other three ssj2s. meaning broly would as well. since gohan could at least overpower broly and make him flinch, despite all of broly's resistance to pain and superior physical toughness.

"It did not break the ki shield"
doesnt matter. broly was finished. if the sun wasnt there, he was still defeated and eventually would lose the shield and be crushed by the pressure of deep space. or suffocate. not breaking through a defence doesnt mean the fight wasnt over. clearly if three ssj1s could blast him millions of miles away from earth, what chance did he stand against ssj2 or 3 goku if he came back?

gohan was shown to be unaffected at all by 50% of goku's power whereas everyone else was like holy ***** on a sandwitch. plus the training rosat scenes where he fights against ssj goku about evenly. and is using the same "dont have to power up when they fight" form. so logic should have told the writers gohan was fairly damn strong (his regular ssj form newly transformed, knocked back one of goku's super kamehamehas.) not weaker than freaking piccolo.





"I am Lord Freeza, whom none surpass me; no one even comes close!
BURN THIS INTO YOUR MIND! I am emperor of the universe! The likes of you are only fit to grovel at my FEET....or better still TO BE CRUSHED, LIKE AN INSECT AT THe WHIM OF YOUR MASTER!!!- Chris Ayres, Freeza, DBZKAI dub from Funimation
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

Broly was killed by the sun nuff´ said.. I agree with Illu anyway´s so there is no need to read your comment what would be just total Broly hate and twisted facts... and i hate long text.. so i wont bother even replying to it.
Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one.



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Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

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Aug 22 2010, 02:30 PM
"You ignore the fact that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT."
yes i do. its never established. he even appears stronger than gohan in the movie since he lasts longer in the fight.

"Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch"
how do you know? did you ask him?

" SSjin 2 Teen Gohan got ****curbed by Broly"
a curbstomp would be not even budging broly. gohan overpowered broly using just strength vs strength in the strangehold scene.

"You think two SSjins are going to do anything against him?? Give me a break"
yes. because gohan was clearly ssj1 in the struggle. he had two bangs, not the ssj2 style one bang. and goku doesnt have the rigid hair nor has to struggle to transform. he usually yells during the anime buu saga even for ssj2 against kid buu. gohan understandably yells cos he hasnt done it for 7 years.

"no proof that Broly got weaker, only stronger."
you mean the other way around.

"You assume that a zenkai will not occur after a long period of healing"
he didnt fully heal which seemed to be a requirement in frieza saga. you can clearly see hes still hurt from the punch.

"But he wasn't crushed and killed by a comet..."
no. he was dead before that. in movie 8. and yes he was in fact dead. unless you want me to believe that he was indeed supposed to survive exploding after the punch when they animated it.

"it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug."
slug was weakened by the whistling and was caught off guard. broly was not.

"First of all, they weren't beaten half to death"
they are so weakened, they didnt go ssj before giving their energy. meaning goku is 200 times weaker than he could be if they gave their ssj power, not base power. in fact they were barely awake and looked really banged up.

" Notice when Vegeta gives Goku energy that a golden aura appears for a second?"
rofl your logic is worse than movie 8s. so vegeta was giving 50 x his base power while being in base, but with a golden aura? please. he wasnt transformed, which is only when the multiplier applies. your ignoring basic dbz logic.

"Therefore, MSSjins don't lose their power after going back to base."
so they just keep their 50 x multiplier after giving absolutely every drop of energy they had to spare to beat the toughest villain in history? no gohan was not mssj any more. but his power stayed there. just like how goku is obviously not weaker than he was against cell when he fights pikkon. the only thing is, now that they have been mssj for so long, ssj doesnt eat up ki any more. thats my logic. they dont need to be mssj to access the power it granted them against cell. but if they want to completely reduce the ki consumption...

"So, Goku and Gohan were still MSSjin level in Movie 8."
no. they were never mssj in the movie timeline. since gohan was only ever mssj when he was in piccolo's outfit and stronger than every other z fighter. clearly the movie was made before mssj was discovered and gohan got that new outfit.

"You're saying that LSSjin Broly was not at full power when he fought Goku?"
im saying he was. but that doesnt mean he wasnt playing around.

"No proof that Dabra was toying around with Teen Gohan"
watch the fight again and come back.

"no proof that Gohan was SSjin 2 when he was fighting Dabra"
look at the hair. the same as it was vs broly. if you want to beleive he was ssj2 vs broly...then he indeed was against dabura. so how can you say no proof?

" His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu."
was he pounding on gohan? didnt seem to be trying too hard to do so. more interested in cutting him in half.

"Broly wanted to see him suffer."
then why did broly have a frustrated look as goku withstood his blows?

" he can stand up to Goku's Kamehameha Wave"
rofl every villain has. raditz deflected a kamehameha. OMFG HE MUST BE SO *****ING STRONG! OMFG HE ONLY LOST COS GOHAN HEADBUTTED HIS WEAK SPOT! RADITZ'S POWER IS MAXIMUM!

"Broly was not going all out"
because he was winning with ease? so your saying super perfect cell wasnt fully powered? kid buu? nappa?

"Broly cannot drain himself. Perhaps he could if he put all his energy into one attack, but he'd gain his power back again in a small amount of time. "
bull. no saiyan can just replenish energy out of their *****. not to mention zero proof. if the fight was as one sided as you think, there would be no need for the "constantly rising and replenishing" crap. small amount of time? constantly rising and it took him 30 years to reach perfect cell level. oh well done lol. so broly can drain. if he was in a difficult fight or if he held himself back.

"You cannot deny that, and you cannot deny that Goku and Gohan exited the RoSaT before Piccolo even entered."
again gohan looks so much like mid rosat its hilarious. and he should be at least as strong as trunks but he appears weaker than piccolo. and this is after ssj gohan fights ssj goku to a standstill in the chamber. right before goku discovers that mssj is the best way to get stronger. vegeta and trunks are clearly post rosat, but goku and gohan and piccolo, i seriously doubt.

"Vegeta was defeated in one blow. Does that mean he's a lot weaker than Piccolo"
no. because he opted to fight broly alone. instead of teaming up with the others. piccolo withstood multiple hits and kept coming back. but gohan and vegeta just lost the plot and were crushed faster than the others. the power levels are all wrong for this to be post rosat. theres no reason for piccolo to be so strong. hell if this indeed was pre cell games and goku = mssj goku, then why are they like holy ***** (including with gohan) when they fight cell? didnt they just see gohan and goku use full power on broly? conclusion, cell games z fighters and movie 8 z fighters ARE NOT THE SAME. and this is including when goku demonstrates 50% full power and its much more impressive than trunks ussj. even trunks is like "holy ***** on a sandwitch, im weak." but in movie 8, trunks did no worse than goku. piccolo even after rosat, should be miles behind the others especially vegeta. as vegeta scoffed that piccolo did not increase much.

""You're stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. Impressive."
alright. but ssj2 vegeta would win against kid gohan. sometimes experience and superior training and skill can close a power gap. not the case with goku, as vegeta soon realised that his own ssj2 would not be able to defeat goku's ssj2. he states himself "no amount of training could make up for your natural talent for battle".

"which SSjin 2 Teen Gohan was not too far behind himself."
vegeta thought teen gohan was pathetic, and that he himself could beat dabura in five minutes. teen gohan would get rapestomped by the other three ssj2s. meaning broly would as well. since gohan could at least overpower broly and make him flinch, despite all of broly's resistance to pain and superior physical toughness.

"It did not break the ki shield"
doesnt matter. broly was finished. if the sun wasnt there, he was still defeated and eventually would lose the shield and be crushed by the pressure of deep space. or suffocate. not breaking through a defence doesnt mean the fight wasnt over. clearly if three ssj1s could blast him millions of miles away from earth, what chance did he stand against ssj2 or 3 goku if he came back?

gohan was shown to be unaffected at all by 50% of goku's power whereas everyone else was like holy ***** on a sandwitch. plus the training rosat scenes where he fights against ssj goku about evenly. and is using the same "dont have to power up when they fight" form. so logic should have told the writers gohan was fairly damn strong (his regular ssj form newly transformed, knocked back one of goku's super kamehamehas.) not weaker than freaking piccolo.





1. Well there's your problem right there. Piccolo would not have been able to do as well as he did if he wasn't Post-CoSaT. This...is just obvious. You also assume that because Gohan was defeated in one assault whereas Piccolo got up after being felled that that automatically means that Piccolo is stronger than Gohan. But you forget that Vegeta was also defeated in one blow by Broly, and he and Piccolo are practically on the same level. It's obvious that Broly was selective in who he crushed and who he toyed with. When Broly said, "Kakarot, do you love your son?", that wasn't a good omen. Even after he assaulted Gohan, he actually wanted to finish him off before Piccolo came. Also, what you're saying doesn't really make sense. You think Piccolo is pre-RoSaT but you also think that he's stronger than Gohan??

2. You can be smart, but everyone here would agree that it was a simple punch except for you. Not to say that majority is the determining factor here. Gohan didn't make any noise whatsoever when he punched Bojack. He didn't yell or scream. It just happened. BAM. A whole through Bojack's gut.

3. Somehow Gohan got out of that hold. That much is undeniable. However, it's obvious that Gohan was far outclassed in strength by the other examples in the fight. Gohan's punch had no effect on Broly's face whatsover, and Broly defeated Gohan in three blows, as Gohan passed out on the rock above the lava after trapping Broly.

4. Well clearly if SSjin 2 didn't stop him, then three SSjins aren't going to either. I think the movies are really messed up with how they do things, because in reality Goku, Gohan, and Goten would've been obliterated by Broly's ki orb. BUT, they weren't in the movie. So, one must say that Broly was holding back. Otherwise, like Movie 8, it just doesn't make sense.

5. No, I mean exactly what I said. NeciFiX has the link to Toriyama's notes for Broly that show us he got stronger. Ask him for it. It might just change your life. ;)

6. That was a scar he had. He was fully healed, otherwise he wouldn't have been fighting. And he never acted like he was still hurt from the punch either. That's all unbacked theory on your part. Again, there is NeciFiX's link for confirmation.

7. I'm just saying that they decided to make a sequel. Whereas once he may have been dead he is not now.

8. I don't believe the whistling effected Slug's power level. I think it only caused him hearing pains. Even if he was "caught off guard" Goku still had to have been strong enough to pierce through Slug, and that's something that's very doubtful given Goku's power level. However, what I'm saying is that it happened. Obviously the creators intended Slug to be defeated by Goku + Piccolo + Kaioken. Assuming they were fresh it might be able to be done, but as weakened as they were it sounds farfetched.

9. Same thing with Movie 8. To think that Goku would be sustained by lower-than-base powers while getting annihilated by Broly is ridiculous. Goku would be lucky if he replenished his own ki, and I find that to be an impossible feat in itself. Obviously Goku recieved a huge power-up. It wasn't by no nilly-willy powers that he was enabled to defeat Broly. It's obvious that it would've had to have taken Super Saiyan powers to defeat Broly, and no less. Even in the OVA, they defeat Hatchyack, who is on Broly's level, by combining their powers together with their special ki attacks. Same logic must be used in Movie 8. It had to take the combined efforts of the Zet Senshi's Super Saiyan levels to finish Broly, and no less. Otherwise, we're just believing a lie that doesn't make sense.

10. Mock me all you want, but it is true. Ususally the movies do ignore basic DBZ logic. But why would Vegeta expect Goku to win if all he gave Goku was a small amount of energy? Ask yourself that, and see if the answer makes sense to you.

11. Pretty much exactly what I'm getting at. They may not have been residing in MSSjin, but the facts that they can maintain the form for a long period of time without large amounts of energy being drained and their power is the same shows us that they are still MSSjin-tier. And that's why it doesn't matter that Goku and gohan are in base state in Movie 8. They are still as powerul as they are before the Cell Game.

12. My key word is 'level'. MSSjin-LEVEL. And again, the indication that they are post-RoSaT: Piccolo being Post-RoSaT. Also, if you take a look at Gohan's stature in Movie 8 it is very similar to how he looks in the Cell Game. When he was in the RoSaT and was first training in Super Saiyan form he was quite a bit smaller. An indication that he is indeed at the latter part of his training if not fully finished with his training in Movie 8. I ten to go with he finshed his training because of Piccolo.

13. Okay, I agree that Broly was toying with Goku.

14. I've read the fight many times. Believe me, in the manga, Dabra and Gohan are EQUAL. They are the definition of equal. Both are shown to trade the same amount of blows. And again, ask yourself, why would Dabra be toying with Gohan when he has two other Saiyans [who he might know to be stronger] he has to fight? And even if he was toying with Gohan, he was doing a bad job of it since he was getting kicked around an what-not. If he was truly stronger than Gohan, and he was toying with him, he wouldn't have been getting hit. He would've been smashing on Gohan, but he wasn't.

15. Yes, your right that Gohan had only one-hair bang against Broly. But there is one thing you're wrong on here. When Dabra fights Gohan it is Post-Hair-Change. When Gohan fights Broly in Movie 10 that is Pre-Hair-Change. Gohan's hair is changed when the World Tournament Arc begins. When he goes SSjin in the World Tournament he also has only one hair bang. Was he SSjin 2 there? Certainly not. Gohan did not have lightning in his aura when he fought Dabra in the manga. He was not SSjin 2 and Dabra was not SSjin 2-tier. End o story. Now in Movie 10 it's a different story. The reason why I can say Gohan is SSjin 2 there is because there is a differentiation between the hairstyles of his two transformations. The first time he transforms he has one hair bang; the second time he transforms he has two. Clear distinction there. If you couple this with the facts that lightning was not drawn on SSjin 2 Goku in Movies 12 and 13 and Broly was stronger than he was before [as proven with Toriyama's notes], we can say that Gohan was SSjin 2 in Movie 10.

16. And that shows us what? That he wasn't toying with Gohan. Maybe pounding on Gohan became secondary was he saw how strong Gohan was. Maybe he felt he had to kill him quick to survive. Afterall, there were two other Saiyans.

17. At first Broly was making him suffer. At the end though he did start to become a little frustrated with the fact that Goku was still standing when he was kicking the crap out of him. This was of course because Goku was recieving ADEQUATE energy in order to survive Broly's onslaughts. Ahem.

18. My point is that Broly is more than twice Goku's power level. In fact he is probably more around 4 times his strength. Goku's power level more than doubles when he performs the Kamehameha Wave. Who knows, by this time it could've been a higher multiplier. But that is indeterminable. Broly was vastly stronger than Goku.

19. I'm saying that Broly was at full power, but not using full effort.

20. Zero proof? How bout the fact that he says, "My ki is rising!"? LOL Don't you remember the part where he had to expel ki because of how much power he was gaining? It's not that it took him 30 years to reach that level. A lot of the time he was held back from achieving his true form by the mind-control device. His power wasn't unleashed until the device was broken. But what's that have to do with why his power continually rises?

21. Again, Gohan is noticably bigger than he was when he was training mid-RoSaT. Compare them in the manga. The fight where SSjin Gohan and SSjin Goku fight in the chamber is filler, which is a step lower than non-canon movies if you ask me. But I imagine that it would've happened anyway. Thing is, your talking about before Goku discovers that MSSjin is the best way to go, and that is before they have that big fight in the chamber with all that fire. If you can't see that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT I don't know what to tell you. If he was Pre he would've been crushed in one hit. Incomplete Cell broke Piccolo's neck with a punch, and SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta [who toyed with Semi Complete Cell] was defeated by Broly in ONE BLOW. Piccolo had to be Post-RoSaT. And if that's the case, then Goku and gohan have to be as well.

22. So...if Piccolo is weaker than SSjin Type 2 Vegeta, why is it that he withstands Broly whereas Vegeta doesn't? Could it be that Broly was toying with one and not the other?? Second point is Movie 8 doesn't really take place, so I don't know why you're bringing the main story into this like it actually happened. Third point is, Broly was so uch stronger than all of them it didn't matter who was weaker and who was stronger. They all were put down very easily. It's like sending a 15 year old videogamer and a 34-year old veteran Praetorian Cohort to go fight Master Roshi or some crap. They are both going to be taken down very easily.

23. Pure conjecture on your part that Vegeta would automatically win. SSjin 2 Kid Gohan was pretty well trained by Goku. I could argue that he has a very good chance of winning. Vegeta does have experience in battle, what to do and what not to do, but Gohan has been in quite a few battles himself at this point, and he has been trained by Goku, who is like, THE MASTER. So, yeah.

24. Again, Gohan was not SSjin 2 when he foguth Dabra; he was only SSjin. Besides the fact that Gohan became a bit weaker, he had waned in skill of combat. There were things he was doing [like attacking head on] that Goku never taught him to do. That was mainly why Vegeta was getting pissed at Gohan. Actually the real reason why Vegeta was yelling like that was because he wanted Babidi or Dabra to notice the evil in his heart and stamp him with some power. So your argument here is not really valid to say that Vegeta was far beyond Gohan. Earlier, all Vegeta said was that "We're stronger than he is now", that's all.

25. Well, to be quite frank, he crushed SSjin 2 Teen Gohan. SSjin 2 stood no chance against him, at least not that level of SSjin 2. For Goku and Gohan and Goten to have done what they did two things would either have to take place, or the combination of two things. One, Broly's ki orb was severely weakened, allowing them the oppurtunity to blast through it and blast him to the sun. Two, when Broly's ki orb was weakened, Goku and Gohan burst SSjin 2 to give a final push so that the ki orb was sure to shatter, as SSjin 1s are proven to be ineffectual against Broly. If Goku and Gohan were SSjin 1and the sun wasn't there, I don't see how Broly would've been unable to get off the Kamehameha, considering it was far weaker than the power he possessed. So, but with the help of SSjin 2 Goku, I could see him not getting off the wave for a while. Also, it's debatable that Saiyans can survive in space... [as seen in the manga Bardock is in space]

Now, I tried to answer all your points. A lot of them seemed repeated, or some I had already addressed. But there are a few things you should know, standards that are established as fact. I don't like to argue about things that have already been proven to be true, so I'm going to tell you some of the facts about what we've been arguing about. Piccolo was Post-RoSaT in Movie 8. Fact. Broly is stronger in Movie 10 than he is in Movie 8. SSjin Teen Gohan's hair changed at the time of the 25th World Tournament. Gohan was not SSjin 2 when he fought Dabra. Dabra is not SSjin 2-tier. All factual.

Phew! Holy **** that was a long post.
Edited by Wintergreen5000, Aug 22 2010, 05:12 PM.
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

ILLusioNaire
Aug 22 2010, 05:10 PM
Ussj Future Trunks
Aug 22 2010, 02:30 PM
"You ignore the fact that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT."
yes i do. its never established. he even appears stronger than gohan in the movie since he lasts longer in the fight.

"Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch"
how do you know? did you ask him?

" SSjin 2 Teen Gohan got ****curbed by Broly"
a curbstomp would be not even budging broly. gohan overpowered broly using just strength vs strength in the strangehold scene.

"You think two SSjins are going to do anything against him?? Give me a break"
yes. because gohan was clearly ssj1 in the struggle. he had two bangs, not the ssj2 style one bang. and goku doesnt have the rigid hair nor has to struggle to transform. he usually yells during the anime buu saga even for ssj2 against kid buu. gohan understandably yells cos he hasnt done it for 7 years.

"no proof that Broly got weaker, only stronger."
you mean the other way around.

"You assume that a zenkai will not occur after a long period of healing"
he didnt fully heal which seemed to be a requirement in frieza saga. you can clearly see hes still hurt from the punch.

"But he wasn't crushed and killed by a comet..."
no. he was dead before that. in movie 8. and yes he was in fact dead. unless you want me to believe that he was indeed supposed to survive exploding after the punch when they animated it.

"it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug."
slug was weakened by the whistling and was caught off guard. broly was not.

"First of all, they weren't beaten half to death"
they are so weakened, they didnt go ssj before giving their energy. meaning goku is 200 times weaker than he could be if they gave their ssj power, not base power. in fact they were barely awake and looked really banged up.

" Notice when Vegeta gives Goku energy that a golden aura appears for a second?"
rofl your logic is worse than movie 8s. so vegeta was giving 50 x his base power while being in base, but with a golden aura? please. he wasnt transformed, which is only when the multiplier applies. your ignoring basic dbz logic.

"Therefore, MSSjins don't lose their power after going back to base."
so they just keep their 50 x multiplier after giving absolutely every drop of energy they had to spare to beat the toughest villain in history? no gohan was not mssj any more. but his power stayed there. just like how goku is obviously not weaker than he was against cell when he fights pikkon. the only thing is, now that they have been mssj for so long, ssj doesnt eat up ki any more. thats my logic. they dont need to be mssj to access the power it granted them against cell. but if they want to completely reduce the ki consumption...

"So, Goku and Gohan were still MSSjin level in Movie 8."
no. they were never mssj in the movie timeline. since gohan was only ever mssj when he was in piccolo's outfit and stronger than every other z fighter. clearly the movie was made before mssj was discovered and gohan got that new outfit.

"You're saying that LSSjin Broly was not at full power when he fought Goku?"
im saying he was. but that doesnt mean he wasnt playing around.

"No proof that Dabra was toying around with Teen Gohan"
watch the fight again and come back.

"no proof that Gohan was SSjin 2 when he was fighting Dabra"
look at the hair. the same as it was vs broly. if you want to beleive he was ssj2 vs broly...then he indeed was against dabura. so how can you say no proof?

" His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu."
was he pounding on gohan? didnt seem to be trying too hard to do so. more interested in cutting him in half.

"Broly wanted to see him suffer."
then why did broly have a frustrated look as goku withstood his blows?

" he can stand up to Goku's Kamehameha Wave"
rofl every villain has. raditz deflected a kamehameha. OMFG HE MUST BE SO *****ING STRONG! OMFG HE ONLY LOST COS GOHAN HEADBUTTED HIS WEAK SPOT! RADITZ'S POWER IS MAXIMUM!

"Broly was not going all out"
because he was winning with ease? so your saying super perfect cell wasnt fully powered? kid buu? nappa?

"Broly cannot drain himself. Perhaps he could if he put all his energy into one attack, but he'd gain his power back again in a small amount of time. "
bull. no saiyan can just replenish energy out of their *****. not to mention zero proof. if the fight was as one sided as you think, there would be no need for the "constantly rising and replenishing" crap. small amount of time? constantly rising and it took him 30 years to reach perfect cell level. oh well done lol. so broly can drain. if he was in a difficult fight or if he held himself back.

"You cannot deny that, and you cannot deny that Goku and Gohan exited the RoSaT before Piccolo even entered."
again gohan looks so much like mid rosat its hilarious. and he should be at least as strong as trunks but he appears weaker than piccolo. and this is after ssj gohan fights ssj goku to a standstill in the chamber. right before goku discovers that mssj is the best way to get stronger. vegeta and trunks are clearly post rosat, but goku and gohan and piccolo, i seriously doubt.

"Vegeta was defeated in one blow. Does that mean he's a lot weaker than Piccolo"
no. because he opted to fight broly alone. instead of teaming up with the others. piccolo withstood multiple hits and kept coming back. but gohan and vegeta just lost the plot and were crushed faster than the others. the power levels are all wrong for this to be post rosat. theres no reason for piccolo to be so strong. hell if this indeed was pre cell games and goku = mssj goku, then why are they like holy ***** (including with gohan) when they fight cell? didnt they just see gohan and goku use full power on broly? conclusion, cell games z fighters and movie 8 z fighters ARE NOT THE SAME. and this is including when goku demonstrates 50% full power and its much more impressive than trunks ussj. even trunks is like "holy ***** on a sandwitch, im weak." but in movie 8, trunks did no worse than goku. piccolo even after rosat, should be miles behind the others especially vegeta. as vegeta scoffed that piccolo did not increase much.

""You're stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. Impressive."
alright. but ssj2 vegeta would win against kid gohan. sometimes experience and superior training and skill can close a power gap. not the case with goku, as vegeta soon realised that his own ssj2 would not be able to defeat goku's ssj2. he states himself "no amount of training could make up for your natural talent for battle".

"which SSjin 2 Teen Gohan was not too far behind himself."
vegeta thought teen gohan was pathetic, and that he himself could beat dabura in five minutes. teen gohan would get rapestomped by the other three ssj2s. meaning broly would as well. since gohan could at least overpower broly and make him flinch, despite all of broly's resistance to pain and superior physical toughness.

"It did not break the ki shield"
doesnt matter. broly was finished. if the sun wasnt there, he was still defeated and eventually would lose the shield and be crushed by the pressure of deep space. or suffocate. not breaking through a defence doesnt mean the fight wasnt over. clearly if three ssj1s could blast him millions of miles away from earth, what chance did he stand against ssj2 or 3 goku if he came back?

gohan was shown to be unaffected at all by 50% of goku's power whereas everyone else was like holy ***** on a sandwitch. plus the training rosat scenes where he fights against ssj goku about evenly. and is using the same "dont have to power up when they fight" form. so logic should have told the writers gohan was fairly damn strong (his regular ssj form newly transformed, knocked back one of goku's super kamehamehas.) not weaker than freaking piccolo.





1. Well there's your problem right there. Piccolo would not have been able to do as well as he did if he wasn't Post-CoSaT. This...is just obvious. You also assume that because Gohan was defeated in one assault whereas Piccolo got up after being felled that that automatically means that Piccolo is stronger than Gohan. But you forget that Vegeta was also defeated in one blow by Broly, and he and Piccolo are practically on the same level. It's obvious that Broly was selective in who he crushed and who he toyed with. When Broly said, "Kakarot, do you love your son?", that wasn't a good omen. Even after he assaulted Gohan, he actually wanted to finish him off before Piccolo came. Also, what you're saying doesn't really make sense. You think Piccolo is pre-RoSaT but you also think that he's stronger than Gohan??

2. You can be smart, but everyone here would agree that it was a simple punch except for you. Not to say that majority is the determining factor here. Gohan didn't make any noise whatsoever when he punched Bojack. He didn't yell or scream. It just happened. BAM. A whole through Bojack's gut.

3. Somehow Gohan got out of that hold. That much is undeniable. However, it's obvious that Gohan was far outclassed in strength by the other examples in the fight. Gohan's punch had no effect on Broly's face whatsover, and Broly defeated Gohan in three blows, as Gohan passed out on the rock above the lava after trapping Broly.

4. Well clearly if SSjin 2 didn't stop him, then three SSjins aren't going to either. I think the movies are really messed up with how they do things, because in reality Goku, Gohan, and Goten would've been obliterated by Broly's ki orb. BUT, they weren't in the movie. So, one must say that Broly was holding back. Otherwise, like Movie 8, it just doesn't make sense.

5. No, I mean exactly what I said. NeciFiX has the link to Toriyama's notes for Broly that show us he got stronger. Ask him for it. It might just change your life. ;)

6. That was a scar he had. He was fully healed, otherwise he wouldn't have been fighting. And he never acted like he was still hurt from the punch either. That's all unbacked theory on your part. Again, there is NeciFiX's link for confirmation.

7. I'm just saying that they decided to make a sequel. Whereas once he may have been dead he is not now.

8. I don't believe the whistling effected Slug's power level. I think it only caused him hearing pains. Even if he was "caught off guard" Goku still had to have been strong enough to pierce through Slug, and that's something that's very doubtful given Goku's power level. However, what I'm saying is that it happened. Obviously the creators intended Slug to be defeated by Goku + Piccolo + Kaioken. Assuming they were fresh it might be able to be done, but as weakened as they were it sounds farfetched.

9. Same thing with Movie 8. To think that Goku would be sustained by lower-than-base powers while getting annihilated by Broly is ridiculous. Goku would be lucky if he replenished his own ki, and I find that to be an impossible feat in itself. Obviously Goku recieved a huge power-up. It wasn't by no nilly-willy powers that he was enabled to defeat Broly. It's obvious that it would've had to have taken Super Saiyan powers to defeat Broly, and no less. Even in the OVA, they defeat Hatchyack, who is on Broly's level, by combining their powers together with their special ki attacks. Same logic must be used in Movie 8. It had to take the combined efforts of the Zet Senshi's Super Saiyan levels to finish Broly, and no less. Otherwise, we're just believing a lie that doesn't make sense.

10. Mock me all you want, but it is true. Ususally the movies do ignore basic DBZ logic. But why would Vegeta expect Goku to win if all he gave Goku was a small amount of energy? Ask yourself that, and see if the answer makes sense to you.

11. Pretty much exactly what I'm getting at. They may not have been residing in MSSjin, but the facts that they can maintain the form for a long period of time without large amounts of energy being drained and their power is the same shows us that they are still MSSjin-tier. And that's why it doesn't matter that Goku and gohan are in base state in Movie 8. They are still as powerul as they are before the Cell Game.

12. My key word is 'level'. MSSjin-LEVEL. And again, the indication that they are post-RoSaT: Piccolo being Post-RoSaT. Also, if you take a look at Gohan's stature in Movie 8 it is very similar to how he looks in the Cell Game. When he was in the RoSaT and was first training in Super Saiyan form he was quite a bit smaller. An indication that he is indeed at the latter part of his training if not fully finished with his training in Movie 8. I ten to go with he finshed his training because of Piccolo.

13. Okay, I agree that Broly was toying with Goku.

14. I've read the fight many times. Believe me, in the manga, Dabra and Gohan are EQUAL. They are the definition of equal. Both are shown to trade the same amount of blows. And again, ask yourself, why would Dabra be toying with Gohan when he has two other Saiyans [who he might know to be stronger] he has to fight? And even if he was toying with Gohan, he was doing a bad job of it since he was getting kicked around an what-not. If he was truly stronger than Gohan, and he was toying with him, he wouldn't have been getting hit. He would've been smashing on Gohan, but he wasn't.

15. Yes, your right that Gohan had only one-hair bang against Broly. But there is one thing you're wrong on here. When Dabra fights Gohan it is Post-Hair-Change. When Gohan fights Broly in Movie 10 that is Pre-Hair-Change. Gohan's hair is changed when the World Tournament Arc begins. When he goes SSjin in the World Tournament he also has only one hair bang. Was he SSjin 2 there? Certainly not. Gohan did not have lightning in his aura when he fought Dabra in the manga. He was not SSjin 2 and Dabra was not SSjin 2-tier. End o story. Now in Movie 10 it's a different story. The reason why I can say Gohan is SSjin 2 there is because there is a differentiation between the hairstyles of his two transformations. The first time he transforms he has one hair bang; the second time he transforms he has two. Clear distinction there. If you couple this with the facts that lightning was not drawn on SSjin 2 Goku in Movies 12 and 13 and Broly was stronger than he was before [as proven with Toriyama's notes], we can say that Gohan was SSjin 2 in Movie 10.

16. And that shows us what? That he wasn't toying with Gohan. Maybe pounding on Gohan became secondary was he saw how strong Gohan was. Maybe he felt he had to kill him quick to survive. Afterall, there were two other Saiyans.

17. At first Broly was making him suffer. At the end though he did start to become a little frustrated with the fact that Goku was still standing when he was kicking the crap out of him. This was of course because Goku was recieving ADEQUATE energy in order to survive Broly's onslaughts. Ahem.

18. My point is that Broly is more than twice Goku's power level. In fact he is probably more around 4 times his strength. Goku's power level more than doubles when he performs the Kamehameha Wave. Who knows, by this time it could've been a higher multiplier. But that is indeterminable. Broly was vastly stronger than Goku.

19. I'm saying that Broly was at full power, but not using full effort.

20. Zero proof? How bout the fact that he says, "My ki is rising!"? LOL Don't you remember the part where he had to expel ki because of how much power he was gaining? It's not that it took him 30 years to reach that level. A lot of the time he was held back from achieving his true form by the mind-control device. His power wasn't unleashed until the device was broken. But what's that have to do with why his power continually rises?

21. Again, Gohan is noticably bigger than he was when he was training mid-RoSaT. Compare them in the manga. The fight where SSjin Gohan and SSjin Goku fight in the chamber is filler, which is a step lower than non-canon movies if you ask me. But I imagine that it would've happened anyway. Thing is, your talking about before Goku discovers that MSSjin is the best way to go, and that is before they have that big fight in the chamber with all that fire. If you can't see that Piccolo is Post-RoSaT I don't know what to tell you. If he was Pre he would've been crushed in one hit. Incomplete Cell broke Piccolo's neck with a punch, and SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta [who toyed with Semi Complete Cell] was defeated by Broly in ONE BLOW. Piccolo had to be Post-RoSaT. And if that's the case, then Goku and gohan have to be as well.

22. So...if Piccolo is weaker than SSjin Type 2 Vegeta, why is it that he withstands Broly whereas Vegeta doesn't? Could it be that Broly was toying with one and not the other?? Second point is Movie 8 doesn't really take place, so I don't know why you're bringing the main story into this like it actually happened. Third point is, Broly was so uch stronger than all of them it didn't matter who was weaker and who was stronger. They all were put down very easily. It's like sending a 15 year old videogamer and a 34-year old veteran Praetorian Cohort to go fight Master Roshi or some crap. They are both going to be taken down very easily.

23. Pure conjecture on your part that Vegeta would automatically win. SSjin 2 Kid Gohan was pretty well trained by Goku. I could argue that he has a very good chance of winning. Vegeta does have experience in battle, what to do and what not to do, but Gohan has been in quite a few battles himself at this point, and he has been trained by Goku, who is like, THE MASTER. So, yeah.

24. Again, Gohan was not SSjin 2 when he foguth Dabra; he was only SSjin. Besides the fact that Gohan became a bit weaker, he had waned in skill of combat. There were things he was doing [like attacking head on] that Goku never taught him to do. That was mainly why Vegeta was getting pissed at Gohan. Actually the real reason why Vegeta was yelling like that was because he wanted Babidi or Dabra to notice the evil in his heart and stamp him with some power. So your argument here is not really valid to say that Vegeta was far beyond Gohan. Earlier, all Vegeta said was that "We're stronger than he is now", that's all.

25. Well, to be quite frank, he crushed SSjin 2 Teen Gohan. SSjin 2 stood no chance against him, at least not that level of SSjin 2. For Goku and Gohan and Goten to have done what they did two things would either have to take place, or the combination of two things. One, Broly's ki orb was severely weakened, allowing them the oppurtunity to blast through it and blast him to the sun. Two, when Broly's ki orb was weakened, Goku and Gohan burst SSjin 2 to give a final push so that the ki orb was sure to shatter, as SSjin 1s are proven to be ineffectual against Broly. If Goku and Gohan were SSjin 1and the sun wasn't there, I don't see how Broly would've been unable to get off the Kamehameha, considering it was far weaker than the power he possessed. So, but with the help of SSjin 2 Goku, I could see him not getting off the wave for a while. Also, it's debatable that Saiyans can survive in space... [as seen in the manga Bardock is in space]

Now, I tried to answer all your points. A lot of them seemed repeated, or some I had already addressed. But there are a few things you should know, standards that are established as fact. I don't like to argue about things that have already been proven to be true, so I'm going to tell you some of the facts about what we've been arguing about. Piccolo was Post-RoSaT in Movie 8. Fact. Broly is stronger in Movie 10 than he is in Movie 8. SSjin Teen Gohan's hair changed at the time of the 25th World Tournament. Gohan was not SSjin 2 when he fought Dabra. Dabra is not SSjin 2-tier. All factual.

Phew! Holy **** that was a long post.
*Smoking Fingers* Damn Illu!!!! :O.
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Necidad
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"The truth is, you're the weak one. And I am the tyranny of evil men."

Damn, Illusionaire. Bravo, bravo.
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Pyrus
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"...Boo."

Nice. Not that you need me to, but I can add into your argument if you request, Ill.
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Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

Feel free to join in Pyro. I don't mind at all.
Edited by Wintergreen5000, Aug 22 2010, 11:44 PM.
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Pyrus
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"...Boo."

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"Gohan hardly put any effort into that punch"
how do you know? did you ask him?

Did you ask Broly if he was putting any effort into clotheslining Videl?

Quote:
 
"it was the combined powers of Goku and Piccolo + Kaioken that killed Slug."
slug was weakened by the whistling and was caught off guard. broly was not.

Slug wasn't weakened by the whistling, at least not as much as he'd need to be to be killed by Kaio-ken Goku. He still remained in his Giant form. If he was really so weakened, there'd be no point in remaining in the form, if he even could access it with such a weakened power level.

He's already done away with Gohan's whistling by the time he returns his attention to Goku. He was surprised that Piccolo's presence was inside Goku, but it's not like he was just completely lost in a trance. He was still looking at Goku when Goku attacked, so he couldn't have been that off-guard. Besides, if he was really weakened by Gohan's whistling, he'd need to go from at least 2mil to around 100,000. That's a minimum of 20x weaker.

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" His whole purpose for fighting was to pound them and transfer energy to Buu."
was he pounding on gohan? didnt seem to be trying too hard to do so. more interested in cutting him in half.

If he seriously wasn't trying, he wouldn't have been huffing and puffing at the end of the fight. You don't get out of breath if you're not trying. If he wasn't trying, he wouldn't have sneak-attacked Gohan in order to injure him for Boo. He would have just attacked him normally.

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"there is no proof, no statements that Broly became weaker at the end of Movie 8."
1. he had a hole not fully healed on his stomach. 2
2. in a coma for 7 years. even a zenkai wont boost his power after not doing anything for that long.
3. killed by a weakened ssj1 right after beating him at full power. and then again, killed by two ssj1s right after beating a supposed ssj2.

How was it not fully healed?

After the Ginyu fight, Vegeta ate a senzu bean and then took a rest. He still got a Zenkai.

So you're saying LSSjin actually drains Broly when he fights, when he states his ki is rising at one point? Doesn't that seem like a contradiction?

Quote:
 
"Zet Senshi were giving Goku Super Saiyan-tier powers"
so you can give ssj powers while not being in ssj and beaten half to death?

Don't know about beaten half to death, but if you watch Movie 9, you can see Gohan flying with a SSjin aura to go fight Bojack, when he's clearly in Base. So it seems they can access their SSjin power while in Base, or at least Gohan can.

Quote:
 
"Notice that after Movie 8 Gohan is now the established hero because he beat Cell"
but thats a ridiculous plot device and one more reason why the movies dont fit the story. gohan appears weaker than piccolo even though at this point in the timeline we should know that 50% of gokus power is more than trunks and vegeta's power.

SSjin Vegeta (and most likely SSjin Trunks since he's close to Vegeta's power) was stronger than 50% FPSSjin Goku.

Quote:
 
"Heck, Goku and Gohan combined"
yeah how would goten add anything? hes weaker and more useless than piccolo or 18. if they showed up instead of goten and trunks, it would be slightly better. and why do you think vegeta wasnt in movie 10? he was obviously far superior to gohan's ssj2, stated at the dabura fight.

Using the Daizenshuu, Goten is equal to Gohan basically. But it's contradicted by the fact that Base Gohan does better than SSjin Goten & SSjin Chibi Trunks together. It's weird.

Quote:
 
>Actually, if you take a look at the fights, no one was doing well against Broly
base gohan. ssj trunks. ssj2 gohan. slightly powered up ssj goku. base goku (against rssj broly). ssj goku, ssj gohan, ssj goten (kill broly).

If you use Base Goku against RSSjin Broly, you must think Base Goku > SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta since that same RSSjin Broly was completely unaffected by Vegeta's kick and ki blast. Base Gohan was doing decently against a SSjin Broly who was clearly holding back, given the look on his face during the fight.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 23 2010, 12:51 AM.
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Super Goku
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Vizard Jinchurikii

These are massively impressive posts.
Yet I still don't know where you guys stand on the matter of Bojack vs. Broly. Who's rooting for who here?
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BURNING HELL FTW
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Pyrus
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"...Boo."

Bojack would lose to either version of Broly in my mind. I used to think Movie 8 Broly would lose, but now I've reconsidered everything and he's just stronger.
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Nusu
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

I´ll join to.. like alway´s Nusu the one who brings the cherry turd to the ***** cake.


Videl would´ve been dead if Broly would put effort into that Clothesline. He would´ve done the same what Gohan has done to the Cell Jr´s. And Videl is by far weaker then them, She can be happy that she was just knocked out and not totally dead.

Broly´s ki overflow´s until to a point where Broly´s Body is in extreme pain, Cause his ki seriously knows no end and it will rise until Broly probably explodes, Cause´ Broly has a limit on his Body, So he basicly needs training to increase that limit so the ki can rise higher again, Until to a point where it starts to overflow, Its like a bottle of water, When you put to much water into the bottle it overflow´s, Same by Broly the ki is the water and his Body is the bottle so his Ki rises, Until his Body starts showing side effects with pain, So Broly needs to expel some of that Ki out of his Body, Or keep fighting so he is losing Ki, Cause his Ki is recovering Damage, Staminia, Strenght, Also after Goku land´s the finaly hit on Broly you can see that his "Blood" is green, Could´ve been Ki? Broly´s Ki is Green? Cause when Goku land´s a hit on Broly in the battle on the water he show´s red blood.
Edited by Nusu, Aug 23 2010, 06:36 AM.
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Pyrus
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"...Boo."

The instance of Videl can't really be used to prove Broly is weak or anything, otherwise you'd have to say Hirudegarn is weak since he blasted Videl and wasn't holding back.
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Necidad
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"The truth is, you're the weak one. And I am the tyranny of evil men."

Kamikaze Pyro
Aug 23 2010, 02:05 AM
Bojack would lose to either version of Broly in my mind. I used to think Movie 8 Broly would lose, but now I've reconsidered everything and he's just stronger.
After all the research I've done formy topic, I do believe either incantation of Broly would win vs. Bojack.

MSSj Gohan was actually doing alright vs Bojack transformed, until his henchmen appeared. MSSj Gohan was utterly defenseless and rapidly defeated by Broly, effortlessly, in movie 8. There is nothing to suggest Gohan as a MSSj got any stronger in movie 9, either.

On top of Broly's regenerating ki and Bojack's lack of henchmen, I think he would lose this. I do think Broly (movie 8) vs Bojack (transformed, full power) would be a good fight, but, I think Broly would win regardless.
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“Making robberies into larcenies. Making rapes disappear. You juke the stats, and majors become colonels. I’ve been here before...”
"You put a textbook in front of these kids, put a problem on the blackboard, teach them every problem in some statewide test, it won’t matter. None of it. ‘Cause they’re not learning for our world; they’re learning for theirs.”
“There ain’t no back in the day… Ain’t no nostalgia to this s*** here. There’s just the street, the game, what happened here today.”
"A man must have a code."
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Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

Heh heh, hey, maybe a thorough analysis should be done on Bojack's power too, lol.
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