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Cold Family and their Transformations; Freeza, Cooler, and King Cold.
Topic Started: Nov 26 2009, 12:18 AM (278 Views)
Super Goku Nov 26 2009, 12:18 AM Post #1
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This is sort of branching off of the "King Cold and movie 7" thread.

I want to discuss the increases in power between freeza's forms. If we can find that, we could discover how strong Cooler's 5th form is, and therefore use that pattern to try to figre out how strong King Cold's transformations would be, if he had any.

I say "If he had any" because i dont think he has any. If he had transformations, he would have transformed vs. SSJ Trunks, an would not have let him kill him so effortlessly.

With all that said, I put in spoiler tags my crazy long opinion on what i think about the forms. I came up with some theories based the Daizenshuu power levels, and tried to target the exact numbers and equations involved in the transformations.
Of course they are all nearly guestimations built upon more guestimations, so i imagine everyone here has a different opinion on the matter and i would love if they shared it.

this first spoiler tag is my thoughts on freeza's power levels.

Spoiler: click to toggle
I was thinking really hard about the transformations of freeza and cooler, and just what exactly the jumps in power
were.

Freeza's first form is about 530,000, and his second form is about 1M when he first transforms.
However, he transforms, but freeza still had room to power up and fight Piccolo. He vastly increased his power.

This proves that freeza has room to power-up after transformation

When he goes into his third form, he is in sort of a relaxed state, not putting out much effort. He never faces an enemy too strong for him, and without powering up he jumps to his fourth form.

In his fourth form he exerts about as much effort as he did in his third form, however in form 4 he powers up. He states that when he first transformed he was only used a few percent of his full power. This DEFINITELY means when he transforms he has room to power up. His 100% fourth form is at 120M, stated by the daizenshuu, and proven on other forums.


So the way i see it is that the jump in power from 'Form 1' to 'Form 2', roughly doubles his strength until he powers up an indeterminable amount.

the 'Form 2' to 'Form 3' leap in power is also indeterminable, and he doesnt even power up to full strength.

the 'Form 3' to 'Form 4' jump in power is noticeable, and its a considerable amount. especially when freeza powers up to 100%

The only for sure conclusions i can draw, is that from form 1 100% to form 2 100%, freeza just about quadruples or possibly triples his power level, i want to say. Another conlusion, is that from form 2 to form 4 freeza powers up from 1M to 120M. Somewhere inbetween there is Form 3.

So if Form 1 --> Form 2 is a 4x increase in power, and Form 2 --> Form 4 is a 60x increase in power, then i can safely assume that from Form 2 --> 3, the increase might be about 6 fold, bring 100% Form 3 to the PL of 12M. The next increase, Form 3 --> Form 4, would be roughly 10 fold, bringing the fourth form's ultimate PL a confirmed, 120M.


This next spoiler tag includes my flawed theory on Cooler's 5th form PL in relation to Goku's increased pwoer SSJ Form (that is, after training on yardrat.)
Spoiler: click to toggle
Now the only reason i went through all that, is that if we find a pattern between the power increases for each of freeza's forms, we can determine how strong a 5th form should be.

I'm a little rusty on the "Revenge of Cooler" movie, but 4th form cooler was apparently a little weaker than Goku, who i believe was fighting with Kaioken X 20. If Goku had been training since the fight with freeza, his PL would definitely have gone up.
As confirmed by the daizenshuu and other people's threads in other places, During the Freeza saga, Goku had about a PL of 3M, giving him a KKx20 PL of 60 million, which was dead even with Freeza at 50% i believe, who, is also at 60M.

So if Goku brought that power level up to maybe, 5 million, KKx20 puts Goku at 100M. If Cooler is only a little weaker than Goku, i might place him at 90M.
Now this step im taking, could be very wrong. Its very hard to determine how much Goku improved in his few years on planet Yardrat. However, considering that in the time of Raditz to the time of Freeza, which was only about a year and a few weeks, Goku's PL increased about 3 million, i think 5 million is a safe estimate for over a year of training.

Now when Goku went SSJ, this gives him a 50x power increase. This sends him from 5M, to 250M. keep this in mind.

Cooler, i believe said his 5th form far surpassed his brother's 4th form. So it must be 120M atleast. But, since it was trashed by SSJ Goku, it must be less than 250M.

The difference in power between SSJ Goku and 100% 4th Form Freeza was 30M. The hand-to-hand battle was about blow for blow, but goku eventually got in a good combo. Earlier, Freeza got in a succession of blows to Goku, claiming it was a warm-up, and Goku smiled and said "i hope thats all." He obviously took it well.

SSJ Goku trashed 5th form cooler more so than he trashed 4th Form freeza. So their difference in power must be atleast 30M. Cooler said his 5th form was far superior to Freeza's 4th form, but since he belongs to a cocky sort of race who takes pride in their power, i wouldnt think it TOO far above freeza.

I could possible just rank his fifth form dead in between 4th form freeza 100% and SSJ Goku (movie5). that would be, a 100% 5th form PL of 185M.

I didnt exactly pinpoint Cooler's 4th form power level, and this is very vital. If I find the 4th form power level, i can find the power increase from a 4th form to a 5th form.

Cooler fought Goku, and Goku caught him off guard a lot, landing a lot of painful blows to Cooler. However, Cooler didnt really try to fight back whatsoever. Cooler recovered from Goku's attacks quickly, and then said he could transform. If he was stronger than Goku (whose KKx20 brings him to 100M), he wouldnt need to transform.

So, possibly his 4th form at 100% is 100M, same as Goku, but we cant know for sure because we dont know if or how much cooler was surpressing his power in his 4th form.

If his PL increases from 100M to 185M, this doesnt really follow the logic of freezas transformations. It went from 4x increase, to 6x, to 10x, and logically next should be 16x. however, if it WAS, Cooler would be at a whopping 1.6 B and for Goku's KKx20 to be that high, his base level would have to be at 80M i believe. which is ridiculous.

So, i would have to revise Goku's powerlevel at base form. If SSJ is a 50x increase in power, and he had to be atleast 1,600,000,000, then his base form should be about 33M, making SSJ form 1.65B. This being said, and being consistent with freeza's transformations, is still unlikely due to the fact that goku could most likely
not increase his power so much in so little time. Most of the time spent was also learning instantaneous transmission.

Because i adjusted Goku's PL, i'll also alter Cooler's. He should still be even with KKx20 goku, so i'll put him at 660M for the 4th form. Multiply this by 16 to follow the pattern of increase, and you get 10.56B.

The big problem with this theory i have is that Cooler always ends up roughly ten times stronger than SSJ Goku. This obviously didnt happen in the movie, or else Cooler would have vaporized Goku. Howver, the movie isnt canon, and perhaps this is how it SHOULD be, if 5th transformations were canon.


This last tag is about King Cold. Because i have ideas about increases in power between forms, i applied them to what could be King Cold's PL.
Spoiler: click to toggle
So this is what im getting to, King Cold. I want to know how strong he would be if he transformed. Pinpointing King Cold's exact PL is hard, and its even unknown what form he is in. However, on the other thread, it was proposed that he was a little stronger than Mecha Freeza, putting him at about 65M.

Now, if 65M is the PL for his FIRST FORM, then lets do the math.
2nd form = 4x increase, = 260M.
3rd form = 6x incrrease = 1.56B
4th form = 10x increase = 15.6B. already stronger than cooler's fifth form?
5th form = 16x increase! = 249.6 B. 151 times stronger than SSJ Goku, and 23 times stronger than Cooler's fifth form.
Now i dont think King Cold is THAT much amazingly stronger than his two sons. His PL for his First form simply cannot be 65M.
I could assume that King Cold was in his second form when he first see him. I can assume this because of his massive size. so,
2nd form = 65M
3rd form = 6x increase = 390M
4th form = 10x increase = 3.9B
5th form = 16x increase! = 62.4B. This only makes him roughly 6 times stronger than Cooler's fifth form, yet still 60 times stronger than SSJ Goku. Still, highly unlikely.
because of this evidence, Neither King Cold's first or second form could be 65M. they must be lots lower. And frankly, i have no idea what they could be.


So, if you took your valuable time to read all that, and comprehend it, i applaud you..

If we agree on something, perhaps we could even try to pinpoint a PL of a 6th form. however, its still useless if we just use numbers, since i dont have accurate numbers for cell and boo, in relation to these numbers.

go.
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Lord Cooler Nov 26 2009, 12:58 AM Post #2
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That indeed was a lot to read but a good read you know your stuff. I'm going to watch Revenge of Cooler now and the episode with Cold and i'll post my opinion soon.
Yeah watching them didn't help haha.
Edited by Lord Cooler, Nov 26 2009, 11:29 AM.
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Timmooo Nov 26 2009, 11:49 AM Post #3
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Well from my opinion I saw it more as Cold in his second form and could possibly be towards that power level, though I do doubt the multipliers are quite that high. I reckon the only reason he didnt transform was that he underestimated Trunks power. And by the time he realised it was too late.

Or possibly as he would be older than his sons perhaps he had been in his form for so long that he could no longer transform. But if we look at them as a family it stands to reason that Cold must have had transformations too.

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Cooler Nov 26 2009, 12:54 PM Post #4


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Ok now time for my long post on the transformations.

Now I will do 2 sets of powerlevels one based on my own reasonings and one based on the Daiz.

Frieza's first form is litterally stated to be 530,000 so I will stick with that in both lists, I reckon Frieza form two is around 1,300,000 or so and that number will be the same for both.

Where the difficulty comes is from gauging Form three's power, it made Piccolo look like nothing and I reckon Piccolo was around 1,500,000 at the time. So I think a power level of 3,000,000 is reasonable for Frieza's 3rd form (I know thats what the Daiz says for his final form but I'm going to ignore it).

Now Frieza's form 4 supressed is still superior to his third form, Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan couldn't even follow his movements so I think 4 million is a safe number to put him at. We know from Goku's Kaiokenx20 that Frieza was initially at about 3% of his full power (Goku kaiokenx20 = 50% of Frieza's power so his base is 2.5% of Frieza's full power and Frieza was slightly superior to Goku). So maybe a full power of Frieza of around 135,000,000! Not sure where I would put Goku SSJ but probably around that level, the multipler of 50x for SSJ is something I believe but Goku was weakened from the battle so he wasn't as strong as he could have been. That accounts for a fairly even battle until Frieza ran out of juice.

So form 4 Frieza is roughly still 100x stronger than form 2 as with the Daiz.

My reasoning for my own power levels is that the Daiz does have mistakes in it thus its not completely reliable and I think 3 million is too low for Frieza form 4.

That takes care of Frieza....

Now for Cooler, this movie is about a year or so later in that time Goku would have increased in strength significantly. I think a 2x increase especially after his near death experience at the hands of Cooler (which may have been significant enough to give him to edge later on) is reasonable. So maybe have Goku at about 8 million, at this level (WITHOUT Kaioken) he was able to go toe to toe with Cooler in his base 4th form.

For ease of calculating lets call 4th form Cooler 8 million as well, he may have been able to power up but seeing as we never saw it I'm going to say it wasn't significant.

Once he powers up he easily defeats Goku even with kaiokenx20, at this level Goku should be hovering around 160 million! He even takes a direct kamehameha and flies through it! The kamehameha is stated to increase ki when you fire it, so Cooler should be around the 300 million mark.

I'd call the increase Cooler got around a 35x increase!

If we go by the Daiz, then increase is the same but the power levels are about 30% lower.

So the rough power increases are;

Form 2 = 2.4x
Form 3 = 2x
Form 4 = 50'ishx
Form 5 = 35x

Cold to me looked like he was in his 2nd form, so if we apply the same logic as that of his sons and place Cold above a supressed Mecha Frieza at base...

- 70 million form 2
- 140 million form 3
- 7 billion form 4.
- 245 billion...

So basically Cold would be stronger than Vegito if he could transform all the way up to Coolers 5th stage.
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BattleMetal Nov 27 2009, 12:44 AM Post #5


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Nah i dont agree with any of these power levels. I dont believe Frieza power level goes through a multiplier (eg 2 times or 50 times) just more of an add on of strength (like say 100+50=150).
This Daisenzu (sp) thing that i hear people go on about sounds like it is a really bad reference point for power levels in my opinion. The people who made that lost my respect when i heard how crazy the made Friezas power level in his final form, there is no need for him to be that strong at that point in the series.

So here is my theories.

Frieza
FORM 1= 250,000 (facing Nail, one handed) - 530,000 (facing Vegeta and Gohan and Krillin)
FORM 2= 750,000 (Gohan overwhelms him for a bit) - 850,000 (facing Piccolo 1st) - 1,050,000 (full)
FORM 3= 1,500,000 (he easily beats Piccolo and you dont need to have a massive edge in power to beat someone, Gohan
pushes him with his power forcing him to change)

I always felt like the first 3 forms we see where similiar so the power increase is not as dramatic, being more similiar in increase. What he attains when he goes into his final true state is much more.

FORM 4= 3,000,000 (when facing Vegeta and Goku at 1%) - 6,500,000 (50%) - 13,000,000 (100%)

I think the main confusion about Frieza power level in final form comes from the how Goku was able to hold his own, supposedly at only his base. I believe from the very start of the fight Goku was using KaioKen (wasnt times 10 right away). Later Goku uses times 10 but still cant overcome the tyrant who is only using 50% of his full power, so Goku is forced to go beyond his limits and double his threshold to KaioKen times 20 with a KameHameHa on top.
The strange thing is that this attack at his sudden boosted level should have destroyed Frieza 50% but the tyrant is able to push back the attack with one hand.

THEORY: Maybe Frieza has some sort of chi attack resistance that is natural to him, that along with his superior strength would make him harder to beat. Notice i only said RESISTANT i didnt say he was PROOF, so is not immune to chi type attacks but he nullifies the full impact by a certain percentage.

When Mecha Frieza and King Kold come to earth it is stated that 'There are two massive power levels of nearly the same strength' (words to that effect).
I think Kold was in his final state but maybe because he had been in this form for so long it was able to equal strength Friezas Final form 1%, but not surpass it as Frieza was the Emperor of the Universe. I believe when Mecha-Frieza first arrives on Earth he was only at 1% of his true power, and he had the potential to go beyond his 100% level BUT wasnt expecting to face an enemy as strong as Trunks, so was not prepared.

Mecha-Frieza= 3,000,000 (1%) - 18,500,000 (potentially, i heard he could go to 150% somewhere in anime so might be filler. Doesnt mean his new body could have handled the strain so might have ripped himself apart anyway)
Edited by BattleMetal, Nov 27 2009, 12:45 AM.
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Lord Cooler Nov 27 2009, 01:01 AM Post #6
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Nov 27 2009, 12:44 AM
Nah i dont agree with any of these power levels. I dont believe Frieza power level goes through a multiplier (eg 2 times or 50 times) just more of an add on of strength (like say 100+50=150).
This Daisenzu (sp) thing that i hear people go on about sounds like it is a really bad reference point for power levels in my opinion. The people who made that lost my respect when i heard how crazy the made Friezas power level in his final form, there is no need for him to be that strong at that point in the series.

So here is my theories.

Frieza
FORM 1= 250,000 (facing Nail, one handed) - 530,000 (facing Vegeta and Gohan and Krillin)
FORM 2= 750,000 (Gohan overwhelms him for a bit) - 850,000 (facing Piccolo 1st) - 1,050,000 (full)
FORM 3= 1,500,000 (he easily beats Piccolo and you dont need to have a massive edge in power to beat someone, Gohan
pushes him with his power forcing him to change)

I always felt like the first 3 forms we see where similiar so the power increase is not as dramatic, being more similiar in increase. What he attains when he goes into his final true state is much more.

FORM 4= 3,000,000 (when facing Vegeta and Goku at 1%) - 6,500,000 (50%) - 13,000,000 (100%)

I think the main confusion about Frieza power level in final form comes from the how Goku was able to hold his own, supposedly at only his base. I believe from the very start of the fight Goku was using KaioKen (wasnt times 10 right away). Later Goku uses times 10 but still cant overcome the tyrant who is only using 50% of his full power, so Goku is forced to go beyond his limits and double his threshold to KaioKen times 20 with a KameHameHa on top.
The strange thing is that this attack at his sudden boosted level should have destroyed Frieza 50% but the tyrant is able to push back the attack with one hand.

THEORY: Maybe Frieza has some sort of chi attack resistance that is natural to him, that along with his superior strength would make him harder to beat. Notice i only said RESISTANT i didnt say he was PROOF, so is not immune to chi type attacks but he nullifies the full impact by a certain percentage.

When Mecha Frieza and King Kold come to earth it is stated that 'There are two massive power levels of nearly the same strength' (words to that effect).
I think Kold was in his final state but maybe because he had been in this form for so long it was able to equal strength Friezas Final form 1%, but not surpass it as Frieza was the Emperor of the Universe. I believe when Mecha-Frieza first arrives on Earth he was only at 1% of his true power, and he had the potential to go beyond his 100% level BUT wasnt expecting to face an enemy as strong as Trunks, so was not prepared.

Mecha-Frieza= 3,000,000 (1%) - 18,500,000 (potentially, i heard he could go to 150% somewhere in anime so might be filler. Doesnt mean his new body could have handled the strain so might have ripped himself apart anyway)
What's your theory on Cooler?
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BattleMetal Nov 27 2009, 01:47 AM Post #7


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Mmm? Cooler is a movie character but i will give it a crack.

I dont think Goku got any stronger (in just his base), more that he was able to master his powers better. He was able to use KaioKen times 20 more effectively without it killing him, Cooler really struggled to handle this in his 4th form.

Ive read that Cooler was inferior to Frieza when they where both in their 4th forms but he was able to surpass Frieza when he evolved into his 5th battle state.

In his 5th he overcomes Gokus KaioKen strength but as soon as Goku goes Super Saiyan the fight becomes very one sided, Cooler doesnt even budge Goku with a punch. Its only when it comes to a fight of wills and raw power, Coolers Super Nova versus Gokus KameHameHa that Cooler is able to somewhat push SS Goku.
Goku with some training must have increased the strength of his Super Saiyan level a small bit compared to when he fought Frieza on Namek.

Cooler= 8,000,000 (4th Form) - 14,500,000 (5th Form so an increase but not overly higher compared to 100% 4th form Frieza, just enough to gain victory)

If Frieza was able to attain a 5th form also and maxed out his 100% 4th form then he would have crushed SS Goku on Namek.
If Frieza had attained this new form after Namek and fought Goku on Earth over a year or so later then the fight would have much more equal and would have come to a battle of wills, strategy and techniques.

Frieza= 13,000,000 (100% 4th form) - 18,000,000 (5th form potential)
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Lord Cooler Nov 30 2009, 04:01 AM Post #8
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But in movie 5 Cooler states that Frieza was a pest he would have killed him himself and was always trying to beat him, trying to prove that he deffinitly had the edge. So Cooler must have beat him every time they fought. Then again it could be Cooler's cockiness speaking.
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Super Goku Dec 1 2009, 02:36 AM Post #9
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no, cooler said freeza had a slight advantage.

A SLIGHT one. not as big as the one that battlemetal displayed, i dont think.,
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Brian Dec 1 2009, 03:19 AM Post #10
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Wouldn't Frieza have just rose against and killed King Cold if he could? I mean, that's Frieza we're talking about here. If he could be the mightiest, I'm sure he's going to try and take it. I imagine Cold was stronger than he appeared.
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Turrin Dec 1 2009, 04:23 AM Post #11


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New member, but i always found this interesting. Clearly King Cold had two more forms the reason being is he is clearly in his second form and its stated by Zarbon that the transformations aren't products of a person increasing their power, but rather decreasing their power. Considering King Cold was in Form 2 and he was stronger then Mecha Frieza he probably had a power level in the billions in his true form and yes he had a true form since he was frieza's father and therefore his true form would look like 4th form frieza. So i woulld say he would probably be around the level of Cell in his Super Perfect form. SSj2 would probably beat him but just barely much like Super Perfect Form Cell.
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Brian Dec 1 2009, 05:03 AM Post #12
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Are you serious? My god, what a statement... Jumping to Semi-Perfect Cell alone would be shocking. Where can you possibly conclude that he would gain such an absurd amount of power?
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Lord Cooler Dec 1 2009, 09:20 AM Post #13
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Dec 1 2009, 02:36 AM
no, cooler said freeza had a slight advantage.

A SLIGHT one. not as big as the one that battlemetal displayed, i dont think.,
When does Cooler say that? I have watched the movie so many times lol
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Timmooo Dec 1 2009, 09:26 AM Post #14
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I'd actually be inclined to agree that there would be a substantial increase, maybe not quite to that level but close. There would be a reason he is still around and a ruler despite having such strong children.

I definitely think he would have transformations and his final state would be rather epic indeed.

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Lord Cooler Dec 1 2009, 09:31 AM Post #15
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Would his final state be form 4 or 5?
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