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| Kid Buu vs Majin Buu; Like it says in the title ^ | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 11 2009, 02:57 PM (5,649 Views) | |
| * Psyam | Sep 20 2009, 10:20 AM Post #31 |
 
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The difference between Frieza and Goku was about the same as between Kaioken Goku and Vegeta (about a 10% difference in both cases), and the match-ups were similar. Goku managed to draw a little blood from Vegeta, but he didn't really have a chance of winning the fight and it was quite easy for Vegeta. Frieza likewise managed to land a few good blows, but Goku had dominance the entire fight (In the manga, and I'm having to use that to argue with NeciFiX, Frieza did way better in the animé). I don't know about the Buu Vs. Buu thing. I think it's just because Good Buu was outmatched, not because it was Kid Buu fighting him. I remember saying Vegeta saying Good Buu's power was decreasing, but that's all. But yeah, if that was the case they'd both wear down anyway. Vegeta got a surprise attack and lasted for less then a minute while he had a dead body, which is more durable. When he was alive again I don't think he even got one hit in the manga. Edited by Psyam, Sep 20 2009, 02:50 PM.
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| Cooler | Sep 20 2009, 04:04 PM Post #32 |
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I believe I've demonstrated that Fat Buu was weaker than Goku yes? This is because Fat Buu couldn't scratch Goku and we know that opponents of similar power can wound dead bodies (Goky Vs Majin Vegeta fight), Psyam would you argue against this point? Now I never said Goku was owning Fat Buu, he was trying to stall for time only so he wasn't going all out but the fight they had clearly shows that Fat Buu was unable to hurt SSJ3 therefore proving: Goku SSJ3 > Fat Buu. Now I don't think there's a big difference at all between Dead Goku and Alive Goku so you're going to have to prove that there's enough of a difference to make up the clear difference between Kid Buu and Fat Buu at this point. And even then we've seen that dead bodies can be injured by beings of equal power as this didn't happen to Goku we know Fat Buu was weaker than him. At the beginning of the Kid Buu fight Goku was unaware of his limitations at SSJ3 and he stated two things: 1) He could have beaten Fat Buu. 2) Kid Buu required everything he had to have a chance of beating. It was again stated later on in the Manga only full power could defeat Kid Buu (this would be the full power Goku knew from otherworld), thus its fairly obvious that Kid Buu is at least equal and probably stronger... I mean Goku said he'd need everything he had to defeat Kid Buu, no such statement was made about Fat Buu so at best Fat Buu would be equal to Kid Buu but the wording of the statements imply: Kid Buu > Fat Buu. Good Buu got precisely 3 hits on Kid Buu they were; 1) A surprise head butt 2) An energy blast which Kid Buu took like he takes all energy blasts. 3) A throw using his antena after Kid Buu had been choking him for a bit of time. The rest of the battle he was a punch bag and Kid Buu even used just his legs to fight him at one point. I think you've exaggerating how well Good Buu did against Kid Buu, the throw in particular I wouldn't even count as a hit so in reality its 2 hits on Kid Buu. Vegeta who fought Fat Buu also states that Kid Buu and Goku are stronger than he had imagined. |
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| * Psyam | Sep 20 2009, 04:24 PM Post #33 |
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Fat Buu was just playing with Goku, it was obvious neither of them were really trying. Goku told Piccolo just after he'd fought Fat Buu that he didn't think he could beat him. Why would he lie to Piccolo when his time was already up anyway? It's not like Piccolo was gonna force him to go back down and beat Fat Buu when he had no energy or time left. You forget that Vegeta was Majin when he fought dead Goku. Vegeta's body was also stronger and more durable (think Spopovitch), cancelling out any advantage Goku gained by being dead. Goku even stated that an other-world body is more durable, when Vegeta was wished back he warned him that he wouldn't last as long in a living body. Later he said he overestimated his ability's anyway. This statement is countered by the fact he told Piccolo earlier he didn't know if he could beat Fat Buu or not, and that was when he was dead and stronger. If he had been dead he could of destroyed Kid Buu. Null point, and I'm not even sure that quote is in the original manga. Goku said while dead he wasn't sure if he could beat Fat Buu, this was just after his battle with him. Just after! It would of been fresher in his mind. Goku while alive later said he could then beat Fat Buu, but at that time he also thought he could beat Kid Buu in his living state. We know he was overestimating himself, he later admitted it. The line he said to Piccolo is much more trustworthy. Headbutt still knocked Buu down, surprise attack or not. We know he could beat Kid Buu in his other-world body. Goku was unsure if he could beat Fat Buu, while in his other-world body. Vegeta never fought against an all-out Fat Buu, also, how could Vegeta not have imagined a power as great as SSJ3 Goku/Kid Buu, when they had earlier fought against Buuhan and even fused themselves into Vegito? Edit: Typo, Goku told Piccolo I meant, not Piccolo told Goku. Edited by Psyam, Sep 20 2009, 04:39 PM.
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| Cooler | Sep 20 2009, 09:34 PM Post #34 |
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Well I could easily say Kid Buu was playing with Goku as well, in the end in the end though Fat Buu couldn't damage Goku and this shows that he was weaker. Goku also told Piccolo that he and Vegeta were almost equal, so I guess Goku was telling the truth then as well? Goku lied a lot in the buu saga about his power, he was only fully honest at the end of it which is when he said he could have beaten Fat Buu. I also recall him saying he could have beaten Fat Buu on more than one occasion, although I couldn't put my finger on where...Regardless visual evidence clearly points to Kid Buu being superior. Actually Vegeta being a Majin is irrelevent beyond the extra strength (which made them equal) it didn't grant him any bonuses while attacking against a dead body. Goku recieved damage because Vegeta was an even match for him, he didnt't receive damage against Buu because he was superior to Buu. My point is that Fat Buu was clearly inferior to Goku as he couldn't hurt him, Vegeta could and they were equal so Fat Buu must be inferior to Goku. Goku's statement that everything he had was needed to have a chance against Kid Buu implies Kid Buu is at least equal to Goku putting him above Fat Buu. He only overestimated his abilities in his alive body, he knew exactly what his dead body was capable so the point stands. Its not a null point as Goku didn't realize his limitations until he tried to charge up again, therefore he was basing it on his dead bodies power. It was never stated that Goku was stronger when dead only that he could handle the energy consumption of SSJ3 while dead better. It being fresh in his mind is irrelevent I think he'd hardly forget something like that, he lied numerous times about his power in the Buu saga to Piccolo as well this was likely one of these times. Once again Goku wasn't aware of his limitations while alive until after the battle, so we can infer that he believed Kid Buu to be superior. The headbutt didn't knock Buu down... We also know Goku could beat Fat Buu in his otherworld body, as my example of battle damage proves Fat Buu is inferior to Goku in strength. Kid Buu requires everything Goku has to win and is therefore more powerful than Fat Buu. How do you know the Fat Buu Vegeta fought wasn't all out? Evidence. Well maybe Vegeta didn't believe an unfused being could possess such power? His statement clearly puts both Goku and Kid Buu above Fat Buu. |
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| * Psyam | Sep 20 2009, 10:22 PM Post #35 |
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Couldn't damage him? Are you judging that on the animé? They barely even fought in the manga. It was just a scuffle, Fat Buu was obviously just messing around and having fun, he was smiling the entire time. Goku and Majin Vegeta WERE equal, they are, when they're at the same level. Goku is only stronger at SSJ3, he's not stronger naturally. Well, I don't. He made one statement he couldn't beat Fat Buu, and one he could. He was overconfident when he said he could of beat Fat Buu, we've been over this. Also, Fat Buu never seemed to put any effort in his fights, so it's illogical that Goku would even know Fat Buu's full power in the first place. He was probably just basing that on their fight, where Fat Buu probably didn't use full strength. I don't agree. You don't have nearly enough evidence to prove that conclusion. They only fought very briefly, Goku had a more durable other-world body, and Fat Buu wasn't even trying his hardest. Fat Buu wanted to keep fighting Goku. It was just a game to him. An other-world body is more durable then a normal one, in addition to allowing Goku to manage SSJ3 better. Numerous times? Not really. Again, why would he lie to Piccolo at this point? He had no reason to. The boys would of had to take on Buu no matter what he said, Vegeta was already dead, Gohan was gone...why would he lie to Piccolo at that time? For kicks? He would of been truthful with his old friend, especially one as perceptive as Piccolo. I don't agree. My mistake, it sent him flying. However, Vegeta at SSJ2 didn't get even one melee hit on Kid Buu as far as I remember. Only the rapid energy blasts at the start. Goku could of also beat Kid Buu in his other-world body. He only says he has to go all out, which I would assume to mean Super Saiyan 3. He still would of beat Kid Buu if he had been able to control his SSJ3 power properly. Isn't it obvious? If all Goku wanted to do was distract Buu long enough for Trunks to get the radar, he could of just battled him as SSJ2 for awhile, seeing how he'd be equal to Majin Vegeta. He thought he needed SSJ3 to keep up with Fat Buu, so obviously Fat Buu was just messing with Vegeta. I figured he just meant Kid Buu and Goku were stronger then he'd imagined them to be, not that they were stronger then he could imagine...Vegeta also never Fat Buu's full power, or Super Buu's (before absorbing), or Ultimate Gohan's. If you think so, then why are you bothering to debate with me? I'm keeping an open mind here to your arguments, but you haven't convinced me yet. |
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Sep 21 2009, 12:36 PM Post #36 |
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Hey Psyam, Vegeta did get a couple hits on Kid Buu out of anger. Majin Buu also hit Goku too I believe, didn't he? To me, that's all there'd be to know. If Majin Buu hit Goku when he was angry, then he'd obviously hit Kid Buu. Cooler, I think you're overlooking Psyam's point. It's not Mr./Majin Buu's power at typical strength that he's talking about, it's the angry power he releases. You saw Grey Buu, right? Grey Buu ended up absolutely pummeling Mr. Buu (without his evil strength), perhaps even far moreso than Kid Buu. When Evil Buu combined with Majin Buu, the dominant personality trait became the evil itself. That's what caused Super Buu to be so unbelievably powerful at will. Majin Buu always HAS this power, he just has to unleash it in the rare times he gets angry. So if you ever need an example of this strength, recall the beating Grey Buu gave Majin Buu (to define the difference in power to an exact regard), or you could look at Majin Buu angrily beating down Majin Vegeta. |
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| * Psyam | Sep 21 2009, 05:01 PM Post #37 |
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Yeah, Vegeta got some melee hits in the animé, but not in the manga I think. I'm having to go by the manga here because otherwise everything I say will be dismissed as "filler", unfortunately I've only reads parts of it and those only once. |
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| Gohan Jr. | Sep 24 2009, 03:37 AM Post #38 |
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Ok This Whole Topic Is Choas ..........I Like It So I Would Have to Say That Kid Buu Is better then fat buu.....BUTTTTTTTTTT If Kid Buu Gets fat Buu Angry (Which is Bound to happen) Then i Would Say That Fat Buu Would Win Because he has an immense Power locked up by The Supreme kai .... So At the End of the day Fatt Buu Would Go Home Satisfied And Eats LOTSSSSSSSSS And LOTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Of Dinner |
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| BUU | Sep 26 2009, 05:51 AM Post #39 |
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Okay, this is a long topic. so, long that I didn't bother to read most of it. but I'll do my best to debate anyway. Okay, Kid Buu was stated to have nearly unlimmited energy by Goku, meaning that Kid Buu never seemed to tire out. Whether or not Majin Buu poccesses this stanima is unknown. Anyway, this is a huge advantage, not being able to tire out that easily. Also, Supreme Kai states that Kid Buu is the most powerful of all the buus. (Although this is an Anime filler, so I'll ignore this. I believe the proper term is dangerous). However, kid Buu being dangerous and unpredicatable iwould make it hard for anyone to try to keep up with him. Kid Buu amnaged to push back a Spirit Bomb with all of earth's energy, including Z fighters (which includes Ultimate gohan). It was stated earlier by Psaym that ultimate gohan did not donate all his energy, but I'd beg to differ. When Goku asked for even more energy, king Kai stated that no one on earth had anymore energy to donate. Meaning that gohan had donated all his energy. And I don't think that you can just say SS3 Goku would obliberate Kid Buu. Where's the evidence? Just because Goku stated that he could? People in DBZ say that they're more powerful all the time. You can't say someone's more powerful just because of a claim. Goku often has the tendancy to underestimate his oponents. (eg. he never understood the true deph of Cell's power). and in case you haven't noticed, Goku isn't the brightest of the bunch.  Whos' to say that kid Buu wasn't messing around with Goku and Vegeta? He was fooling around the whole time, doing all these fancy tricks and laughing like a maniac. After all this, I say Kid buu wins. |
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| * Psyam | Sep 26 2009, 01:31 PM Post #40 |
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Gohan's full power was NOT contributed to the Spirit Bomb. Whether because he didn't give it all, or because he could only give his base power not his ultimate power, or because the Spirit Bomb works differently, it doesn't matter. The point is, his full power was never added to it. Gohan alone would thrash Kid Buu within an inch of his life without even breaking a sweat, so how could Kid Buu hold something with all of Gohan's energy back? To repel all of Earth's energy, plus the Namek's, plus all of the Z Fighters and Gohan's full potential, Kid Buu would have to be even stronger then Gotenks Buu, and that just isn't happening. Gotenks Buu even said he was the strongest Buu ever. Gohan > Super Buu > Kid Buu, Super Buu wrecks Kid Buu even without absorptions, but that's not what we're discussing here so I'll leave it at that. When Fat Buu split into Good Buu and Evil Buu, Akira Toriyama commented (through narration box, which he uses to speak directly to readers) that most of FAT BUU's power went to Evil Buu. Evil Buu only had most of Fat Buu's power, not all. Fat Buu > Evil Buu Evil Buu = Kid Buu (you're going to have to prove Kid Buu is stronger then Evil Buu here to counter this, which may start off another long debate, but most people in the Kid Buu Vs. Evil Buu topic agreed they were probably equal anyway.) Fat Buu > Evil Buu = Kid Buu. 'Course the truth is that this debate is unwinnable by either side, if neither side backs down. I'm one of the only Fat Buu supporters on this forum I guess, but elsewhere many people support my side, as well as Kid Buu's. There's decent evidence for both sides, which stems from the fact that fans practically bullied AT into making Goku the focus again at the end of the series, which made the Kid Buu fight (in my opinion) contradict everything else in the Buu saga. Edited by Psyam, Sep 26 2009, 01:32 PM.
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| BUU | Oct 1 2009, 03:57 AM Post #41 |
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Okay. I admit that majin Buu is more powerful than Kid buu. But I feel that in such a fight like this, power won't decide the outcome. In Dragonball volume 1, Goku states that power isn't everything. I now know that Majin Buu was more powerful than Kid Buu, but how did Kid Buu put more of a fight? You said earlier that a dead body is more durable and does not consume as much energy, but has nothing to do with power or strength. I've examined both fights and noticed that in the Majin Buu vs ss3 Goku fight, durability didn't play in that much (maybe only once); Buu couldn't actually get a decent hit, except one good right hook. But otherwise, Goku's durability didn't do much; the fight was mostly a mildenergy blasts battle. And when buu tried going for a hit, Goku simply countered his hits. But the Kid buu fight was intense and made Goku use more effort. My point is that Kid Buu gave Goku a better fight even though he was weaker than Majin Buu. I think that it was kid Buu's fighting style. It was so bizarre and weird, that Goku had a tough time evening up. I think that Kid Buu's weird fighting style could give him an advantage. Yes, it's true that this debate is interminable because neither side is willing to back down. But the fact that the kid Buu saga contradicts everything is true. So, it's really impossible for sure to know the real answer. 
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| Cooler | Oct 1 2009, 12:31 PM Post #42 |
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I'm judging it on the manga so as not to get mixed up with filler, unless you want to debate using the anime? Majin Buu hit Goku straight in the face and did nothing, it may have been a short fight but Majin Buu caused no damage. In the Vegeta Vs Goku fight damage was sustained almost immediately, they were of equal power. If Majin Buu wasn't able to damage Goku then he must of been weaker. You say Majin Buu wasn't being serious, just because he was enjoying the fight doesn't mean he wasn't trying to blow Goku too bits. In the Manga Goku says Vegeta and he are almost the same, maybe its the translation I read? Even so if they are equal it only strengthens my point that Majin Buu can't have been equal in power to SSJ3 Goku. How do you know he was being overconfident when he said he could beat Fat Buu? Why would he be overconfident about Majin Buu when he's fighting Kid Buu? That doesn't make sense. Also his statement alone implies that he believes Kid Buu to be a superior opponent. Why is your quote better than my quote? I could easily say that when speaking to Piccolo Goku didn't want to look like a complete moron for not finishing off Majin Buu right there and then. My quote is as good evidence as yours and I think together with my other arguements is a strong case for Kid Buu being superior. Was Kid Buu ever really serious in his fights? If you don't know Majin Buu's full strength how can you say its greater than Kid Buus? All we know is that Majin Buu wasn't able to damage SSJ3 Goku but could beat down Majin Vegeta placing him between SSJ2 and SSJ3. Majin Buu even commented that he was hurt 'a little' by a ki attack by Majin Vegeta, no such complaints from Kid Buu when half his body was destroyed. Goku may have had a more durable body but we saw an otherworld body vs an equal opponent in his fight with Vegeta and his body being more durable didn't save him from getting cuts and bruises almost immediately. Is your argument basically that Majin Buu has a deep reservoir of power which he can tap into? If so then I think you need to show that this massive power actually exists and can actually be great enough to topple Kid Buu. From what we saw there's no reason to think that Majin Buu is even equal to SSJ3 Goku (lets say that the 2 quotes cancel each other out for now). If we haven't seen this great power how can you say it exists?
Yes using his full power, therefore Kid Buu must be an equal opponent. Do we agree on this that Kid Buu's power must be roughly equal to Goku's?
Well Majin Buu obviously wasn't serious when he was letting Majin Vegeta hit him but afterwards I don't think there's any evidence of Buu being stronger than he was when he was beating Vegeta down. From the fight SSJ3 Goku appeared to do more than keep up with Fat Buu, he outpaced him.
How do you know when Fat Buu beat down Vegeta that wasn't his full power? I don't see why Vegeta would be surprised at Kid Buu's power if it was already weaker than Majin Buus.
Because I'm stubborn :P. I appologize if I've been rude. Edited by Cooler, Oct 1 2009, 12:32 PM.
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| BUU | Oct 2 2009, 12:28 AM Post #43 |
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Forget everything I said in the previosu post. Okay, this is becoming a very heated argument. The main point is that the Kid Buu saga seems to contradict everything else in the Buu saga. So, it is hard to get an exact answer for this. Judging from what we heard so far, Kid Buu is the weaker adversary. majin Buu> Kid buu>>Good Buu Okay, Majin buu and Kid buu are definately far above the power of any SS2 because Goku knew he couldnb't beat either of them if he didn't use SS3. Both Buu's seemed to have been playing around in their fights, leading me to believe that they weren't using their whole power. (This would probably be why Kid Buu was able to push back a Spirit Bomb.) In that case, SS3 Goku may have underestimated them. Perhaps they were more powerful than we thought. If we use this theory, we can conclude that the buu's might have been more powerful than SS3 .Either that or the Buu's can be serious and goofy at the same time when they fought. If we use this theory, we know that SS3 Goku is obviously more powerful than the Buu's. Theory One(The buu's were holding back): majin Buu>Kid Buu>sS3 Goku Theory Two(The Buu's were going all out): SS3 Goku>majin Buu>Kid Buu Whichever one you guys prefer. But I think that Kid Buu seems to have the advantage of a unique, unorthodox fighting style. But majin Buu has the advantage of power. What do you guys think? |
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| Cooler | Oct 2 2009, 12:14 PM Post #44 |
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What did Majin Buu do to give you the impression he has more power than Kid Buu though? I can't see Majin Buu holding back that spirit bomb.
Edited by Cooler, Oct 2 2009, 12:14 PM.
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| * Psyam | Oct 2 2009, 03:11 PM Post #45 |
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Buu: Even if Kid Buu did fight in a better way, without a speed advantage he would get caught by Fat Buu's candy ray pretty fast. Majin Buu would definitely use it if he was losing, Kid Buu was able to avoid Good Buu's because he had a big speed advantage, without one he'd probably get caught out sooner or later. Cooler: How can I show his great hidden power exists? I can't, that's the point. Fat Buu was never serious in ANY fight. The fight between him and Goku was very brief in the manga (far too brief to say anyone had the advantage, imo). Goku can take a punch in the face without crying like a baby, even if it did in fact hurt. Majin Buu never showed any concern about SSJ3 Goku. You didn't reply to my last post, so forgive me for repeating myself. Majin Buu > Evil Buu, the narration box (aka Toriyama himself, speaking directly the reader) said that only MOST of the Fat Buu's power went to Evil Buu, not all. Evil Buu = Kid Buu, they are basically the same being but in different forms. Therefore Majin Buu > Kid Buu You'll have to prove Kid Buu is stronger then Evil Buu now, which is no simple task, otherwise I'm concrete that proves Fat Buu is stronger. That's because he's a fat, childlike pink thing. But appearance and ability are two different things. I can't imagine General Rildo in his first form being able to hold back the Spirit Bomb, but he actually could as he was said to be stronger then Buu. Point being even if they look like they can't,, or seem like they can't, they still can. Ah don't worry about, it is a debate after all. |
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