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Green and Red
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 1 2009, 11:24 PM (796 Views)
+ Rebel X	Aug 1 2009, 11:24 PM Post #1
Posts: 11,612 Group: Legend Member #88 Joined: January 16, 2005	Pikkon VERSUS Dabura I don't know if we've had this in the past but I think it's something to check into. Aspects to think about are Pikkon vs. Goku battle AND Dabura vs Gohan battle. I'll post my opinions later.



BUU	Aug 2 2009, 12:07 AM Post #2
Posts: 148 Group: Member Member #4,313 Joined: July 15, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? internet explorer Favourite Manga Dragonball Z	Since Dabura was claimed to have the same power level as Cell, it seems that Pikkon would win. Pikkon easily dominated Cell in a few punches. And although this is an anime filler, Pikkon is exclusive to the anime as well. Pikkon was a character created for the anime. Dabura's spit wouldn't be much of a problem for Pikkon because I'm pretty sure he's fast enough dodge it. And, if Pikkon could dominate Cell like that, a Thunder Flash would quickly end the battle.



* Psyam	Aug 2 2009, 03:43 PM Post #3
Posts: 1,788 Group: Retired Staff Member #3,439 Joined: May 18, 2008 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga One Piece	BUU Aug 2 2009, 12:07 AM Since Dabura was claimed to have the same power level as Cell, it seems that Pikkon would win. Pikkon easily dominated Cell in a few punches. And although this is an anime filler, Pikkon is exclusive to the anime as well. Pikkon was a character created for the anime. Dabura's spit wouldn't be much of a problem for Pikkon because I'm pretty sure he's fast enough dodge it. And, if Pikkon could dominate Cell like that, a Thunder Flash would quickly end the battle. Pikkon wouldn't beat Cell in a fair fight. He caught him off guard, nothing more. Cell probably wasn't at his maximum power at the time, either. He didn't even need his full Perfect power to beat Goku, but he was Super Perfect at that time. ...Yet Pikkon had trouble with and was beaten by Mastered Super Saiyan Goku. If he was stronger then Cell, he would of thrashed Goku in a few hits, as the Otherworld Tournament wasn't long after Goku died (he didn't have SSJ2 or SSJ3 yet). Also, Pikkon had his weighted clothes on when he hit Cell, and if he was stronger then Cell with those on, then base Goku would be stronger then SPC Cell too, as he was able to fight on even ground with Pikkon at his base when he had his weighted clothes on. Obviously base Goku wouldn't be stronger then SPC, so Pikkon hitting Cell down like that has to just be put down to Cell being not powered up and caught by surprise. That being said, I do think Pikkon would win this. SSJ1 (MSSJ) Gohan was able to keep up with Dabura (It's inconclusive what form Gohan was when he fought Dabura, I think SSJ1 though) fairly well, despite being weaker from lack of training. Yes, Goku said Dabura was around Cell's level, but keep in mind that Goku was never on Earth when Cell came back with his Super Perfect power, meaning Goku was probably referring to normal Perfect Cell when he compared Dabura to him. Goku was able to keep up with Perfect Cell (who was holding back some of his power), and MSSJ Gohan at the Cell Games was stronger then MSSJ Goku. Keeping in mind that Gohan was originally stronger then Goku at the Cell Games even at SSJ1, Gohan losing power yet still being able to put up a fight against Dabura at SSJ1 isn't out of the question. Pikkon without weighted clothes, however, was too fast for MSSJ Goku to track at all. Goku was totally outclassed on speed once Pikkon got serious. Dabura would be somewhere near Goku's level at the Otherworld Tournament, maybe a bit stronger, so Pikkon would also probably be too fast for Dabura. If Pikkon caught Dabura in his Thunder Flash spam, without Instant Transmission, Dabura would be going no where. The only danger would be his spit, which I am confident Pikkon is fast enough to dodge. So my vote goes to Pikkon for those reasons.



rob	Aug 2 2009, 04:11 PM Post #4
Posts: 203 Group: Member Member #4,195 Joined: May 15, 2009 Favourite Anime dragonball, dragonball z	Psyam Aug 2 2009, 03:43 PM Yes, Goku said Dabura was around Cell's level, but keep in mind that Goku was never on Earth when Cell came back with his Super Perfect power, meaning Goku was probably referring to normal Perfect Cell when he compared Dabura to him. why is it when ever goku compares a new enemy to an old one people assume they are the better warriors, like the one where he says the fighters are around frieza's power level, which does'nt mean they would actually beat frieza, they just have the same power level, another one, general rildo i think he compared him to majin buu's power level but he did give goku as much trouble as buu. say if it was dabura instead of cell then the z-fighters would justt have to watch out for his spit and they would have no problem in defeating him, it could be piccollo or vegeta to beat dabura instead of it all being about goku and gohan. the two fat aliens could'nt beat frieza, (1st fom, 2nd form, 3rd form, final form) general rildo could'nt beat buu, (super buu, kid buu or with gotenks, piccollo,gohan) dabura could'nt beat cell, (semi-perfect, perfect, super perfect) i think pikkon would beat dabura with ease, he's too fast and he'd just dodge hid spit and destroy dabura. Edited by rob, Aug 2 2009, 04:22 PM.



BUU	Aug 2 2009, 05:31 PM Post #5
Posts: 148 Group: Member Member #4,313 Joined: July 15, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? internet explorer Favourite Manga Dragonball Z	If I remember correctly, Cell and Goku were fairly even at the Cell games. (Not completely, but roughly even). Since the other world tournament took place between the Cell Saga and Buu saga (a seven year gap), it could be assumed that Goku got at least a year or threeto train, and Goku can do a lot in a few years. So, Goku must have become far more powerful, but he still hasn't reached SS2 or SS3 (this could have occured in between any of the 7 years). Base Goku was doing well against Pikkon, but Pikkon later revealed that he wasn't using his full power to Goku (this is when he still has weighted clothes). And when he did use his full potential (or part of it), he had the clear advantage. I think that even if Cell wasn't caught off guard, he still wouldn't last that long. If Pikkon did take off his weighted clothes, he would be too fast for even Cell. (Goku was shocked at Pikkon's speed). And, I don't think that being powered up can be used together with durability. Durability is just how well you can take hits, powering up is just raising your energy. Also, it is possible that Pikkon was slightly weaker than Cell, but his attack was 10%- 25% stronger than Cell (which is enough to cause pain). Goku only beat Pikkon because of a ring out. Pikkon is shown to have a clear advantage over full power SS Goku. Also, Goku did know about Super Perfect Cell, he was talking to Gohan when Cell was powering up for the kamhameha. He clearly knew that Gohan had the potential to beat Cell. If he didn't, then he wouldn't have ben so confident. So, it is possible that Goku was comparing Dabura to Cell, but it's not too likely. So, if all this is added up, Pikkon would easily defeat Dabura. And Rob, I think that it is possible that Tarble was reffering to 1st form Frieza because no one knew about final form except on Namek, but obviously, Tarble wasn't there. And Dabura would beat Semi Perfect Cell. Dabura was compared to perfect Cell by Goku since he never really saw semi perfect, except for once. And the gap between Perfect and Semi Perfect Cell is large. I think that Dabura would put a good fight against Cell, but he would eventually lose. Edited by BUU, Aug 2 2009, 06:27 PM.



* Psyam	Aug 2 2009, 07:26 PM Post #6
Posts: 1,788 Group: Retired Staff Member #3,439 Joined: May 18, 2008 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga One Piece	Buu If I remember correctly, Cell and Goku were fairly even at the Cell games. (Not completely, but roughly even). Nope. Perfect Cell was holding back his real power, while Goku was giving it his all. Goku wouldn't of had a chance if Cell went all out. Buu Since the other world tournament took place between the Cell Saga and Buu saga (a seven year gap), it could be assumed that Goku got at least a year or threeto train, and Goku can do a lot in a few years. So, Goku must have become far more powerful, but he still hasn't reached SS2 or SS3 (this could have occured in between any of the 7 years). Base Goku was doing well against Pikkon, but Pikkon later revealed that he wasn't using his full power to Goku (this is when he still has weighted clothes). And when he did use his full potential (or part of it), he had the clear advantage. I thought the Otherworld Tournament was just after Goku died, but I can't remember for sure. I thought when Goku and King Kai died, they then just travelled to the other fighters, then the other Kai's showed up and they had the tourney. I don't remember any time passing, but I could be wrong. Buu I think that even if Cell wasn't caught off guard, he still wouldn't last that long. If Pikkon did take off his weighted clothes, he would be too fast for even Cell. No way. Perfect Cell was holding back much of his power on MSSJ Goku the whole time, and this is Super Perfect Cell, who's way above Perfect. Pikkon would get owned. ...But still, Pikkon would still thrash Dabura. I think that's pretty clear by now.



+ Rebel X	Aug 2 2009, 07:46 PM Post #7
Posts: 11,612 Group: Legend Member #88 Joined: January 16, 2005	Psyam Aug 2 2009, 07:26 PM Buu Since the other world tournament took place between the Cell Saga and Buu saga (a seven year gap), it could be assumed that Goku got at least a year or threeto train, and Goku can do a lot in a few years. So, Goku must have become far more powerful, but he still hasn't reached SS2 or SS3 (this could have occured in between any of the 7 years). Base Goku was doing well against Pikkon, but Pikkon later revealed that he wasn't using his full power to Goku (this is when he still has weighted clothes). And when he did use his full potential (or part of it), he had the clear advantage. I thought the Otherworld Tournament was just after Goku died, but I can't remember for sure. I thought when Goku and King Kai died, they then just travelled to the other fighters, then the other Kai's showed up and they had the tourney. I don't remember any time passing, but I could be wrong. You're not wrong. The other world torny happened right after Goku and King kai died. They held it ONLY b/c King Kai of the North had truly Died. The only time in between was the final battle between Cell and Gohan and the wishing afterwards which was not more then a day. Goku did not become more powerful than Cell in anyway in that torny. He died shortly after his fight against Cell and he didn't improve b/c he had no near death experience, only death.



rob	Aug 2 2009, 08:55 PM Post #8
Posts: 203 Group: Member Member #4,195 Joined: May 15, 2009 Favourite Anime dragonball, dragonball z	BUU Aug 2 2009, 05:31 PM So, Goku must have become far more powerful, but he still hasn't reached SS2 or SS3 (this could have occured in between any of the 7 years). so when did goku reach ss3, i remember him saying something about doing it in otherworld, but when exactly did he do it, because he'd have to go ss2 before reaching ss3



BUU	Aug 2 2009, 09:04 PM Post #9
Posts: 148 Group: Member Member #4,313 Joined: July 15, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? internet explorer Favourite Manga Dragonball Z	As I said earlier, it is very likely that Pikkon is weaker than Cell. I wouldn't say a lot weaker like SS Vegeta vs Android 18, but like Goku vs base form Cooler. It was obvious that Cooler was weaker, but not completely weaker (like a 2%-5% difference). Pikkon's attack might have been 10%-25% stronger than Cell, which gave him the clear advantage. Also, Pikkon did have a clear advantage over full power SS Goku.



+ Rebel X	Aug 3 2009, 06:28 AM Post #10
Posts: 11,612 Group: Legend Member #88 Joined: January 16, 2005	I'm sorry BUU but almost every post you make it so confusing and it just doesn't make much sense. I get the gist of it though so I guess that's what count. Try not making up these percentages because you don't know the proper number in powerlevels for the sagas we're discussing.



Graffiti	Aug 3 2009, 08:24 AM Post #11
MGD. Posts: 3,298 Group: GFX Team Member #204 Joined: February 21, 2005 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Black Lagoon, One Piece, DBZ What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga Bleach	It took an SSJ2 Gohan to kill Super Perfect Cell, where as Mastered SSJ Goku was able to beat Pikkon with his weighted clothing. Pikkon, who was also in his weighted clothing at the time, caught Cell who wasn't at his full-power at the time off guard. Pikkon without his weighted clothin has a chance to beat Dabura.
	DBZF Original, 2005-present "When backed into a corner, you are the most fearsome fighter!" Piccolo [Portifolio \| Str8 Outta Namek (DBZF's only Hip Hop Club) \| MyAnimeList]


Nothing	Aug 4 2009, 02:04 AM Post #12
Posts: 153 Group: Member Member #4,026 Joined: March 13, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox	-Dabura wins this one if you look at the power levels. I mean the only reason why Pikkon dominated Perfect Cell was because Cell didn't expect Pikkon's attack, and also Pikkon's fighting style and techniques are unique and unknown to Cell, since Cell uses fighting style of the Z Fighters. Latter, Goku, who was at mastered ssj level, was able to fight equally with Pikkon,and Goku at that level was no match for Perfect Cell back on Earth. -If we look at techniques and style, then Pikkon wins since he has much more interesting and unique techniques as I said earlier,and he is also very fast. This solves the Dabura's stone spit problem,because Pikkon can easily dodge that one. But since in DBZ it is usually seen that the one with higher power level dominates, than this fight goes to Dabura,even if his stone spit is rendered unusable by Pikkon's speed. Edited by Nothing, Aug 4 2009, 02:05 AM.



* Psyam	Aug 4 2009, 02:14 AM Post #13
Posts: 1,788 Group: Retired Staff Member #3,439 Joined: May 18, 2008 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga One Piece	Nothing Goku, who was at mastered ssj level, was able to fight equally with Pikkon, He wasn't able to fight evenly with him. Pikkon had him completely outclassed later in the fight. Goku couldn't even keep up with his movements at all. Edited by Psyam, Aug 4 2009, 02:15 AM.



Nothing	Aug 4 2009, 02:42 PM Post #14
Posts: 153 Group: Member Member #4,026 Joined: March 13, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox	Psyam Aug 4 2009, 02:14 AM Nothing Goku, who was at mastered ssj level, was able to fight equally with Pikkon, He wasn't able to fight evenly with him. Pikkon had him completely outclassed later in the fight. Goku couldn't even keep up with his movements at all. Only because Pikkon is faster. Pikkon himself stated that Goku's power is amazing, but that Goku will need more concentration if he wants to beat him. Pikkon is great at the speed department, but he lacks raw power.



* Psyam	Aug 4 2009, 05:04 PM Post #15
Posts: 1,788 Group: Retired Staff Member #3,439 Joined: May 18, 2008 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga One Piece	Nothing Aug 4 2009, 02:42 PM Psyam Aug 4 2009, 02:14 AM Nothing Goku, who was at mastered ssj level, was able to fight equally with Pikkon, He wasn't able to fight evenly with him. Pikkon had him completely outclassed later in the fight. Goku couldn't even keep up with his movements at all. Only because Pikkon is faster. Pikkon himself stated that Goku's power is amazing, but that Goku will need more concentration if he wants to beat him. Pikkon is great at the speed department, but he lacks raw power. Speed and power usually come together, except in rare cases like Burter. I didn't see anything to suggest Pikkon was weak. He commented on Goku's power because it is great, not greater then his own. It's rare that anyone reaches Goku's level at that tournament. Besides, even if what you say is true, speed is much more important then strength in DBZ, as was proven by powered up Trunks Vs. Perfect Cell. If you can't catch or even see your opponent you have little to no chance of winning. Even though Perfect Cell was holding back on Goku, it's probable that if Cell went all out against him, Goku would still be able to see his movements, just not be fast enough to block them. He couldn't track Pikkon at all. That's a huge speed advantage. If Dabura is around PC's level, he would also likely be no match for Pikkon's speed. Also, if he gets caught in Pikkon's repeated Thunder Flash attacks, he is going to die without Instant Transmission to save him.



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