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| The Religious Denial | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 29 2009, 05:54 AM (422 Views) | |
| Temphis | Aug 11 2009, 02:31 PM Post #31 |
The Grand Master of The Masterverse
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I am really dissapointed with you guys, mostly Kotetsu. I can understand getting "giddy" over something your passionate about, but when your gonna be so utterly biased in your views that you sit there and rebutle every comment someone makes when they are just trying to tell you why the believe what they do, not only are you the one in denial, but your being a jerk. you also falsely stated a couple things about the LDS chruch earlier, which is kinda sad, but understandable since there are countless versions of it's history, all of which contridict each other in multiple ways, but like Joseph wrote in his own history "owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil-disposed and designing persons, in relation to the rise and progress of the church....all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against it's character as a Church and it's progress in the world- I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind, and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts, as they have transpired....so far as I have such facts in my possession." now, I'm not gonna rebuttle everything you've said, though I know the answers to all of them, because I'm under the impression that you don't really care to know, since you arn't treating what others say with much respect. What I am gonna do however, is share with you why I believe Joseph was the Prophet of God that restored Christs church, and saw God and the resurrected savior Jesus Christ face to face in a grove of trees behind his house. the reason his story is important, is cause he claims that the same orginization that was established before the foundations of this world and was taught and used by Adam and Eve all the way down till the time of Christ and his apostles, has been restored in it's intierty through him by the Resurrected Jesus Christ. thats very significant, since the majority of the world seems to think the roman Empire was the orgination Christ set up, but to say such a thing is to say that God changes, since the roman empire had a completely different orginization. we LDS folk call the time period between the death of Christ's apostles and the restoration through joseph smith, the "Great Apostasy". god only withdrew himself because the roman empire killed anyone who tried to preach a different faith, so, giving men their will, he waited for a time when people would be open to the truth, which just happened to be during the 1800's on america in a time of religious excitement. in his own history, this is what has moved me in ways I can't describe and stands as undeniable proof to myself why god lives, when I prayed about it to know if it was true, because I had a desire to know. if this history I'm about to share is true, than all of your concerns have an answer that supports it, if it isn't, than Joseph was the biggest liar the world has ever known, since millions of people today are convinced that he was a prophet and have testified they have recieved a witness from a divine power that he is through prayer. "14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally. 15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction." Satan is real if god is, and if Joseph was to be the person God used to restore a church that had been taken away from the earth since the dark ages, it makes sense he would try and stop him. "16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. 17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the dopposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?" I wanted to know if it was true, if it actually happened like Joseph said, so I prayed about it. At first, when I prayed about it, I didn't really feel anything, but I didn't feel bad either, so I figured, "oh well, guess he will answer me later" but you see, I allready had felt something before that, so I knew what I was looking for when I prayed. later on, after I had studied more and understood more aspects of the gospel, I had a new desire to know. the second time I prayed, I knew that if Josephs story was true, than that means that Jesus Christ and god live, and are perfect, that all of the questions I ever had now had a sound answer, and that life, though hard, actually is perfectly just and merciful, though we don't always know how, but that it will be revealed to us through study and prayer. I recieved a witness from god through that prayer from the power that I had felt before, and new from then on, without a doubt, that Joseph was a prophet of god. I didn't understand a lot of the doctrines at that point, but I understood the basic stuff, and since than have studied the doctrines and now know more than ever that it is true. I've met a lot of people, of a lot of different faiths, and heard many of their personal heartfelt beliefs, but I have never had another person, of another faith or belief system, have the ability, to testify what they know to be true, and that is simply because they could not, since they didn't know for themselves if what they "believed" was true, they merely "believed" it. True "Conversion" comes through the power of the holy ghost, and it is the driving force that causes people to want to change and become something better. all people have the light of the holy ghost allready, which is what tells you in your mind and in your subconscious what is right or wrong, or helps you to have morals. with those people aspire hire anyway, but only through the restored gospel can you receive all of the guidlines and answers to lifes questions that will lead you back to your maker. all the answers to your concerns have answers, the only ones that concern you are actually true. the only way you can know if something is true is by some sort of divine power, otherwise you are merely taking chances, and your answers are never sure. even history books are filled with falicies and lies. so, thats why I know, and therefor, I am obviously not in denial, nor can I be, since I don't have the ability to deny it. you on the other hand, have only based your answers on logic and sophistry, which isn't all bad, except I know if you do what I have to receive this witness, you to can know by the same power that there is a god, and that not only is there a completely logical explanation for everything including turning water to wine and walking on water, but that all those gears churning in your head will just click together and it will all make sense. I believe you and I think alike Kotetsu, so I'd like to challange you to study the doctrines of the LDS chruch, since I found it to be true and enrich my life and experiences from the knowlegde I have recieved for it. when you study it, anylize it like I did, consider "if this statement/principle is true, what would that mean to me" and try and wrap your head around all the positive things it would result in. the more doctrines you study this way, I promise you, the more you will want to know it's true. lastly, when you want to know it's true so bad that you find yourself in prayer, asking god if he is real, I want you to keep this scripture from a book of mormon prophet in mind. his name is Moroni, and he saw our generation today through vissions, and wrote this for us " 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." in other words, unless you want to know it's true, and are then willing to act upon the answer you will receive, you cannot receive a witness, for it is by the desires of your heart that god will answer your prayers. this is how I have received my witness of the truth, and why I can say, I know god lives. I have since then received countless witness's reaffirming this truth in a multitude of ways that I consider sacred. Edited by Temphis, Aug 11 2009, 02:33 PM.
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| Kotetsu | Aug 11 2009, 08:27 PM Post #32 |
SOUPER SAYIN THREE
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Whether or not you're in disappointment, I still did it. And I plan on doing it to you. How else can I respond to such long posts? I want to make sure I get everything you said, otherwise you let things slip through. We can't have that. Besides, if I didn't answer you this way, how else are you going to know whether I fully listened to you or not? And don't play down what AHDS did. I'm getting kind of sick of speaking my mind in here and having theists wave their finger at me like I did something wrong. That's exactly what she did, and THEN she tried to back it up with her beliefs. Did you miss that part? Explain to me how I'm in denial, and what exactly I'm in denial about? And explain to me how responding to you is being Jerk-like?
Hitler thought he was right too, Mein Kampf explains that pretty well. You can't take the main characters personal account and history with anything more than a grain of salt.
Sounds like you don't actually have answers to all of them, otherwise you should prove you do. I invite you to. I care to know what you think sir. People receive respect from me when they don't shame me for what I'm doing, like you're currently doing. Just because I respond to everything you say doesn't mean I don't respect you. Sorry you feel otherwise. Am I not allowed to respond to everything you say? I guess I should just take what you say at face value and agree with everything you say. Why do we have this section again? Oh that's right, to disagree with each other. Maybe we should take your advice about not being a jerk by not responding to everything someone says, and call this the Deep Agreement Section. (You'll probably take this offensively as well, but to be honest I'm laughing at it right now.)
Ok.
Do you have proof that an early form of Mormonism was taught and used by Adam and Eve? If that's the case, how did Judaism and Islam come to be? Surely not from Mormonism. So you're saying that Judaism is wrong? I smell contradiction through history.
I don't know a single person that says that. Though that doesn't say much. However history, which is a lot more trust worthy than Joe the Plumber in Alabama, says that Jesus had nothing to do with the Roman Empire, other than that he was killed by it. In fact, it's widely established that Jesus Christ was to become the "KING OF THE JEWS," in which he was killed for. That completely contradicts what the Majority of the world seems to think, in which you think...
How convenient. Just as America was starting to establish it's identity as religiously free. [sarcasm]I don't think that has anything to do at all with the aforesaid events.[/sarcasm]
Prove this.
The power of the holy ghost does not drive me to want to become a better person. I am a good person because I choose to be. Because I fear consequence. Because I understand in cause and effect. Not because I have a guiding light. If Religion is the only thing keeping you from being a good person, then what happens when the day comes that your religion is completely proven wrong? Say it is proven wrong tomorrow? Are you going to oppose human morals and do what you please? I doubt it. Here let me answer this section for you. What happens when Religion is proven right? What will I do? Become an even better person? I surely can't go backwards. Because if religion is as divine and right as you say it is, I could only become a better person. So, in terms of mathematics, i'd say that I'd be an even better person than yourself. Because 1 and 1 make 2.
You can't prove or disprove anything you just said because it's something you can't physically feel, experience or see. Of course you don't have the ability to deny what you believe in because you can't deny something that doesn't exist.
I'm sorry. It won't make sense. The abilities of our minds are almost limitless, which makes me think that everything anyone ever wrote in a holy book was the work of the mind, and not the eyes. That's a perfect explanation to all of it.
I can't bring myself to psyche myself out to try and understand something like you do. I tried that once with Catholicism and nothing at all made sense. Besides i'm scared of the LDS church. I hear stories of family members completely disowning their children and loved ones because they fall astray from the path of the LDS. There are plentiful groups of LDS encampments in Texas that give stories of marrying within the family, and polygamy, not to mention underage sexual encounters. The LDS church feels that their Temple is so holy and so prestige that no one can enter unless a card carrying Mormon. You can't even stand on the property without being told not to loiter. That all aside, the history is about as believable as Scientology. I'm sorry but you wouldn't be able to convince me to even spend the money on your holy book. I'd rather be left in the dark about what you've witnessed then experience any of the things I've just mentioned.
Prove that he actually wrote that.
That is a filled idea. Just because multiple people believe the same thing as you doesn't make it true. It's part of human nature to follow a certain crowd. I'm not 100% certain Atheism is a correct thing, however it's where most of my personal ideas fit in. Much like your own. I question them as well, as you should your witness's. |
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| Temphis | Aug 11 2009, 10:22 PM Post #33 |
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The Grand Master of The Masterverse
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wow. well, I guess I should have been less personal, I dunno, guess I shouldn't have responded to you directly, your making this very unenjoyable. I guess I also missed that you did the same thing to her, but either way, It's kinda jerk-ish because your not respecting someone's views when they say "I believe ____" and you reply ". look, all I was trying to do is tell you I have personal experiences that have convienced me that god is real and that the church I go to is the restored church of a living god. I didn't expect you to agree with me nor did I ask you too. I simply stated, you can do something to find out if it's true for yourself. if you don't want to just say so. I wasn't trying to defend and support everything I was stating, because I was simply stating some of my views, not things you can prove or disprove, but thought provoking words. I never said you shouldn't disagree with others, and I'm not trying to say you shouldn't take everything someone says and reply to it, the whole purpose of these topics is to share views. "Deep discussion" however, doesn't mean "contentious argument" or "My facts have more stability than yours", and I'd rather avoid any conversation that leads to me feeling an adreniline rush from all the excitement of proving my "opponent" wrong, since this isn't a debate either. what I am trying to say your in denial about, is that you seemingly refuse to consider the evidences of a god. I don't expect you to do otherwise though, since like how I quoted Moroni, you need to have an open heart, and open mind. your life experiences have so far taught you to think it's absurd, or maybe even an insult to your intelegence. where you obviously don't have an open mind however, is the fact that I don't see you sharing anything reflective upon what has been said in defense of religious denial except it supports your views. I have stated many a time, that I can understand why you feel the way you do, or when I don't understand you I don't just take what you say and tell you "all the reasons" I disagree. I guess, if you wanted to make this a more interesting discussion, you could ask questions about your concerns, rather than belittling my personal experiences and views. as far as some of the things I stated previously that I guess I should have refraised. I'll do this as sort of a Q & A; "Hitler thought he was right too, Mein Kampf explains that pretty well. You can't take the main characters personal account and history with anything more than a grain of salt." the reason why reading his own history is important, is because you can establish how he portrays himself, you can establish whether or not he contridicts himself with events or how prideful or how humble they are. If anything, you should always get your sources straight from the horses mouth first, before comparing it to any other sources. Also, take other sources, who's goals are to disprove the integrity of the person your studying, with a grain of salt, which should be common sense, but for some reason people don't seem to realize something very important about how your own reasoning works. people tend to take the first thing they read about something as their "original" source, and then compare all others to it. if your original source of information is written by people that hate the person your trying to study, your views will be baised concerning them when you study other things about them. "Sounds like you don't actually have answers to all of them, otherwise you should prove you do. I invite you to. I care to know what you think sir. People receive respect from me when they don't shame me for what I'm doing, like you're currently doing. Just because I respond to everything you say doesn't mean I don't respect you. Sorry you feel otherwise." I won't right now, it will take me a little time to get all my facts with sources or stuff like that, though I can spill all of the answers on a whim. I didn't say I feel you weren't respecting people, but that you weren't respecting their views. "Am I not allowed to respond to everything you say? I guess I should just take what you say at face value and agree with everything you say. Why do we have this section again? Oh that's right, to disagree with each other. Maybe we should take your advice about not being a jerk by not responding to everything someone says, and call this the Deep Agreement Section. (You'll probably take this offensively as well, but to be honest I'm laughing at it right now.)" I didn't say you couldn't, I just meant it's rude to pick everything I say appart, since were not debating, where merely discussing. you can share views and disagree without arguing about them. most of the time I think you do, but this is one of the few times you seem really fired up about something that I've been involved in at least. I actually wouldn't mind you taking my personal views and beliefs at face value, since I am choosing to share them to simply state why I, as well as many other christians, are not in denial. this topic is a biased statement in itself however, so I suppose now that I may have wasted some time getting involved. your sarcasm however, is hilarious LOL I actually really loved that comeback "Maybe we should take your advice about not being a jerk by not responding to everything someone says, and call this the Deep Agreement Section." LOL XD yeah, thats not what I ment, but funny well, I gotta go, but I will finnish this Q & A thing later. I guess....feel free to post after this, even if your just giving me more stuff that I feel obligated to state my views on as well :P I'll probably reply to it too. |
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| Kotetsu | Aug 12 2009, 12:49 AM Post #34 |
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SOUPER SAYIN THREE
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That's exactly what we're trying to discuss. The evidence that is provided for a god is weak. It's hard to understand that such a perfect being, as you said in your own words, could write such an imperfect document. And I imply that to every holy book. Still stated that it's written by humans, imperfect, therefore holds little to actually being true. People speak of divine intervention, but I wonder. All i'm saying is, defend your holy book. Giving us your faith and reasoning for that is not something we can disprove and really has little place here. It's nice that you feel like you can share that, but please think of the kittens. |
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| -Zero- | Aug 12 2009, 12:54 AM Post #35 |
 
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This is not a debate? This is a discussion? Usually when it's something involving religion it always ends up being a debate whether you like it or not. Picking things apart is rude? How else are our views to be given out? You say we are close minded because he fully support on what we believe in? Well I'll be damned.
How about I answer this one for myself, There was once upon a time when I was younger, I used to go to church on a lot of Sundays. Once upon a time I considered myself a catholic especially since I was baptized. How is that for experiences for you? And to be honest I feel a lot better about myself now than I did back there. Logic and Realism are things I live for, I'm not a dreamer I'm a realistic. Would I like there to be a heaven? Sure why not I mean after all it would mean another life after ours right? Do I believe there exists one? Absolutely not! AS I said I'm a realistic. Also the thought of thinking that only way to go to heaven would be to follow the bible strictly? Psshhh that means no one will be going to heaven now a days anyways. BUT there is another way some people say, pray for forgiveness all the time and you shall get it. If that's all it takes why make the rules in the first place? Does that mean I can just beat someone up ask them for forgiveness, they gave it to me beat someone else up and ask again? I think not.
Sure it does if you strongly believe in something you think you are right and the other person is wrong, therefore you believe your facts to have more stability, ESPECIALLY when your facts are more proven or are more realistic/logical
What evidence? I would love to know what this evidence of a god is. Please do tell me. I speak for myself when I say this not for Kotesu, I've had an open mind for a long time, but I've noticed how I've been treated by people when they find out I'm an athiest they were the ones with a close mind and a close heart. I guess then that Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, they all must be real too. Hercules was real heck he even fought that three headed monster. Zeus the master of lighting right? I see Christianity/catholic as real as Greek myth notice the word Myth Edit: I'd like to add something else. There seems to be a strong believe in religious people that religion helps them be a good person. It's easy to see why atheists get sick of it easily, what is that supposed to mean? That since you're an atheist you can't be good? I look at it this way at least I choose to be good because I WANT TO, and not because I feel like that I need to be good to be a faithful person to this god you are fond of. I believe I've done a lot of good and will do more good, more then perhaps a lot of religious people themselves. Look at this way if it was proven that god does exist (only way would happen would be for him to come forward) I would change nothing about me, I'd be the same person doing the same thing I do. Why? Because I believe my actions are good, i believe they are ethical and I have morals. Only change would be that then I would not be able to argue against religion nothing else. Edited by -Zero-, Aug 12 2009, 01:03 AM.
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| Temphis | Aug 12 2009, 04:22 AM Post #36 |
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The Grand Master of The Masterverse
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well, you've got a point. many christians are definately in denial when you put it that way. I don't believe the Bible is perfect, nor do I believe the Book of Mormon is, though I will say the book of mormon is the "most correct" book of any I have ever witnessed or read, and it's written by men who talked to a god, and translated by a man who talked to god face to face, but I am only saying that I know it because I prayed about it and received answers through undeniable sensations that are hard to describe. I don't expect anyone to believe it otherwise, unless they too receive some sort of divine answer. besides, until you actually read the book of mormon, you'll never know if it's good or not, so don't call it imperfect unless you can say you have read it cover to cover. now backing up a bit to some of the concerns or questions that have been raised previously, and my thoughts (not doctrinal, but they are reasons and explinations all the same that you can take into consideration) concerning them. Kotetsu asked "So you're saying that you'd be nothing without a God? If that was true, then people who were never taught of a God from birth are destined to fail at life? According to that logic it must be true. That if God isn't watching out for the non-believers, then they are destined for failure." A:I have stated in another "deep discussion", I don't know which one, but it was a similar answer. people who are not taught of a god from birth will be accountable for the knowledge and experience they receive. if they were taught by their parents what right and wrong is, and the parents taught them wrong intentionally, than the parents are accountable for lying to their children and accountable for whatever actions that child makes as a result of that knowledge. that way it's fair, justice is present, and the savior will provide the child with mercy as they will not be held accountable for actions they didn't know where wrong. that means that canabalistic tribes in certain parts of the world who thought that eating other men makes you stronger and live longer will not be held accountable for what many murders. Q:So you're saying that God has a plan for the children who die when they are first born? Then what was the point of them being born? You're also saying that God has a plan for the innocent man who was stabbed in the face in jail, the one that didn't have time to plead his innocence in a court. That's a terrible plan if you ask me. What's god's plan for me? I'll tell you what it is. His plan for me is to try to become an Electrical Engineer, only dying a few months before getting my degree in a terrible Car accident. Only sending me to Hell later on for not believing in him. There are major flaws in your, "God's plan." theory. A: yes he has a plan for them. the biggest reason we are born, is to inharit a mortal body. if we die before we can use it, than we are not acountable for any actions. in other words, they essentially are perfect. little children are not accountable for right and wrong until about the age of 8 or so, so until than, if they die, it's a free ticket to the highest degree of glory in heaven. normally, this means that the child was probably a super vallient individual "Before they came to earth" in what Mormons call "Pre-Earth Life", where we all lived with god, who is litarally the "father" of our spirits, not just a father figure. people who die will be taught everything in the afterlife if they didn't have an opertunity to learn it in life. that way, everyone has an opertunity, whether in life or death, to receive the truth. as for the innocent men in jail who get stabbed in the face, their suffering dulls in comparison to the atrocoties that countless others have experienced in life, however, the sheer joy that will come from the fullness of the truth they will recieve, and the eternal rewards they will receive for enduring it well, will make their horrific experiences dull in comparison. people must pass through the refiners fire, before they can become a masterpiece. in other words, without trials and hardships, we would never be able to fully appreciate the eternities to come, which is why we left the pressence of god to begin with. gods plan for you, as well as every son and daughter of his, is to help us find joy in this life, and eternal joy in the life to come. he is rewarding us for even being alive, because according to LDS doctrine, we chose to come to earth and leave our heavenly home so we could experience this life, receive a mortal body, die and become reborn in a perfect body, receive eternal rewards for our actions in life, and then return home to the eternities with our families and continuesly progress. Zero: I always hear god is supposed to be a father figure to us all. Yet there are so many people in the world starving. Does a father let their own childs starve? A: no, he lets people be free, and then people in power who like living more upperclass lives use there authority to unevenly distribute food so that you have to pay for it. Zero: Does a father allow a kid to to go into danger? Would a father let their kids be raped if they had to chance to save them? Come on we all know it's bs and denial. A: if that father is restrained by the laws of the universe to let people commit crimes so that they can receive punishment for them, since thats part of living in mortality, as well as people who are victimized receiving eternal rewards that are unfathomaly greater than you can currently understand, than I can only imagine it all makes sense and they will be perfectly satisfied in the end. Zero: For those that say They believe in god helps them make good and at least die knowing you were good, I have a question. Do you feel good knowing that the reason why you did good is because you believe in a higher power? Are you really a good person than? Sounds more like those criminals that go to jail but start being good to just get out, it still doesn't change what they did what so ever. A: God has told people through scripture, the most important commandment, is to love. all of the commandments are guidelines, all of which, require a degree of love, compassion, and understanding. you allready obey a lot of commandments, even if you don't know what they are. the commandments in the Bible where written to the Jews in the Judaic times, the ones that we are supposed to obey in addition to those come from "Modern Day Revelation" or "Living Prophets" who communicate with god and represent his church today. Zero: How we came to be? Certainly not from Adamn or Eve being created from Adam's rib. Let's get real here, you can't make people like that it doesn't com e out from anywhere it doesn't come from thin air. Evolution, ever heard of it? It's not like we try to say oooo an ape just changed from ape to human in one day. No it takes years slowly it happens, adaptability. Adapting and evolving to your surroundings. A: I'd rather not believe we came from monkeys. I don't believe in evolution, mostly cause it doesn't really work, but I am fond of the idea of adaptation. however, we did not come from adaptation if god is real, for he created man in his image, for to not do so would be to create imperfection. he made adam and eve in perfect bodies, but they were also innocent. they were in his pressence and could not leave, because they were perfect, and perfect things dwell in gods pressence, so he needed to make them "transgress" the law, so that they could be cast out of his pressence and begin creating life in mortality, since they could not procreate, since nothing can be change in a "perfect" atmosphere and it still be "perfect" so he had them put in a situation where he knew they would do something contrary to commandments so they could leave and begin mortality. that aside, we don't know how long they were there, or exactly how long it took for the planet to form for that matter. for all we know dinosaurs are alien life form's remains that were taken from worlds with other life on them that had died and where just recycled into earths surface so that we would have fossil fuels when we got the technology for it. Adam and Eves particles where formed from the earths matter, which was changed into flesh, one of adam's ribs went into eve, symbolicly representing that the man and women were joined. in LDS doctrine, Adam and Eve were also married by god, since in heaven there is eternal marriage. it's easy to understand how god could form Adam and Eve from the earths matter when you realize he can turn water into wine. Zero: If god exists and it is him that choses the plans and destinies for people than he must be one big *****. Why give people cancer? Why even create diseases that hurt people in this world? I mean if god did create people then he must have created everything else right? A: like I said, we all need to experience pains and trails so that we can understand and appriciate eternal joys and bliss. Zero: Church has killed so many people over the years it's not even funny. Let's not get started on the priests that maleste boys that's just disgusting. A: stop being so one sided. it's not Churches. all Churches are is just an orginization founded by a belief. people are the ones that do bad thiings, and are the ones that form churches that do bad things. if it was god's church, he wouldn't allow it as an orginization to hurt people or do wrong, though that doesn't mean he can stop individuals within his church from doing bad things to others (which has and will happen because not all people in a religion follow it's precepts.....in fact I'd say a large percent of all Christians EPIC FAIL when it comes to living up to guidelines taught in the Bible or any scripture for that matter.) Zero: If it wasn't for church science would have involved a lot more as Kotesus said. Medical world should be a lot better than what it is now. And there are still some stupid people that refuse to take medical help because they say praying is the answer. A: actually, there are countless examples of prayer working to heal the sick and the afflicted, it's worked on me before, as well as people that I know personally. plus I've heard countless stories from others that I've met of their miraculaus experiences that the doctors couldn't understand. I suppose you havn't heard to many of these kinds of stories, but if you did, I suppose you'd be quick to dismiss them. let me just say one of my aquantices who was on his death bed with several large tumors was cured miraculasly when an entier congregation of people fasted for a week for him to be healed, and his baseball sized tumors where gone without a trace the next time the doctors checked on him to see his condition. there are plenty of modern day miracles and god continues to do them, you just need to open your eyes a little more. BTW, your right about one thing, it's when people pray without action that prayer becomes pointless. you pray for streangth to do what you can, and ask the lord to do the rest. if you don't do your part, why is your father gonna help and teach you that you can get by without doing your part? Zero: There is more evidence that proves science than there is that proves religion. A: um, funny, cause if religion is true, than the worlds science is primitive, since it's science would seem to have no clue how more than a small portion of the universe works in relationship to a god, but I'll give ya an example. Kotetsu said: So you really believe that a man walked on water, turned water into wine, a shrub talked, a man survived being swallowed by a whale, that it's possible to obtain 1 of every creature in existence and quell the natural instincts of animals such as a cougar for 40-D&N's? If you really believe this, find a modern example. If not, you are in denial. A: well, it's not all that complicated, when you can explain how miracles may work. this is my thoughts. Think for a second, if it were possible that within every particle, within every atom, within matter on an infintesimally small level, there is an "intelagence". now I don't want to document this, but I think some scientists are just now starting to come up with the idea that, particles somehow "know" what they are doing, it's like they are programmed to do it. now, if all mater is intelegent, than that means it can act upon things, and be acted upon, and understands whats happening. it also means it may or may not contain vast amounts of knowledge. more importantly though, it means it can recieve instruction and understand it. now, if god wants water to become wine, why not just have the specific particles missing from water to make it wine, just show up and bond with it, making it wine? why not have the matter of the earth become human flesh and turn into bodies for Adam and Eve? why would he not be able to part the red sea? all of these things now have some form of an explination. anywho, as vauge and unsupported by study that may appear, you deffinately can't prove it wrong, and if god is real, it may not be far from the truth, but again, this is just my idea, not doctrine. an amputee will get his original leg back with this explination, at the resurrection, since all the same particles that where used to form it originally can reassemble and rebond to him, not to mention become indestructable, thus forming a perfect body. I will continue this later, I'm excited to reply to Zero's last post, cause I thought a lot of it was funny, mostly cause of the grammer. here is something Kotetsu said that was non-biased :I'll agree with you here. And it's a very very sad situation for the world. I wouldn't wish to take away religion to the people who lean on it for support to literally live. It's sad because it takes religion to motivate people to make their lives better. They lack the effort it takes to do it themselves. Instead they lean on invisible means to support them, and nothing improves. this statement is true considering a vast number of mainstream christians. the only problem with it is the last three words, "and nothing improves" that really depends on what they believe and what they do with it. many christians think they can do bad things over and over, and just keep asking for forgiveness and then just keep going about doing the same bad things over and over that end up screwing up their lives, and then they wonder "why does god do this to me? I'm asking for forgiveness!"......yeah, part of recieving forgiveness is to stop doing the thing your asking forgiveness for. If you keep smacking someone upside the head and saying "oh, sorry" each time, but keep doing it anyway, you think they are gonna say "oh, thats fine, were good" ? of course not, they are gonna get frustrated and leave. God does the same until we change, but he will always help us to change and do everything he can (so long as it is within his own laws and doesn't contridict his own laws of justice and mercy. he wants us to overcome our own demons, not just take them away, for it is when we rise to action and change ourselves that we become more like him, which is his ultimate goal for us all.) I'll finnish this later, this is plenty for now.... Edited by Temphis, Aug 12 2009, 04:26 AM.
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| -Zero- | Aug 12 2009, 12:06 PM Post #37 |
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I'll reply to more later when I'm less tired but I just find this statement hilarious and controversial.And you say Kotesu is rude? Well at least he's not talking about anyone's grammar and if you are to laugh at my post because of the grammar then don;t even bother posting cause that's just plain stupid. If you are going to laugh about something on my posts at least laugh about something like the ideas I posted not grammar. I also caught another controversy. You said that cancer and diseases like that exist so people can have these experiences in life blah blah, yet later on you say god cured a tumor. If he's going to cure it why even create it in the first place? Makes no sense. I also have another simple question I always hear god created man from his image. Where did all the animals come from then? Do they have their own god creating them? AS I said I'll answer to more later when I'm not as tired, but I'm beginning to see exactly what I was see from religious people bringing something that has nothing to do with this argument such as grammar, especially since 've said it a ton of times before grammar was never my strength. Also I also laughed at your post but not for your grammar for some of the things you actually said. |
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Thanks Desi for the first sig and Hustla for the second Don't forget to check out Peter's Blogs- http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8165825/1/ - updated everyday | |
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| Temphis | Aug 12 2009, 07:47 PM Post #38 |
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The Grand Master of The Masterverse
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sorry if I offended you, I shouldn't have said anything. I wasn't going to make fun of it, I was just saying that I thought it sounded funny, and I was excited to reply to alot of the things you mentioned, but not right now, this topic is really just to complicated to go on about the way I am. so heres what you can do, give me a list of your thoughts and views of why "Christians are in denial about believing what they do" and I'll give you responses to each of my views concerning why not all christians are, though I will say many are and I will agree with you on many aspects you may share. either way, I can understand how from the outside, looking at christians, they can seem pretty arogent about a lot of nothings, but some people, like myself, have absolute reasons to believe what we do, and evidence to support. some evidence you can hold in your hand is "the book of mormon" since it alone is an example of a miracle in itself. if you were to study the work that went into it, the education of Joseph Smith, and the circumstances he was under at the time he "had the gold plates" from which he translated it, it dosn't even seem possible that it should exist, but what evidence is stronger still, is that to this day it stands firm under any who have tried to disprove it's claimed origin, and only those who don't know it's true can't seem to figure out why. anyway, just give me a list of things you want to hear me reply to, that way this will seem much less like were attacking each other, and more like were discussing our different views. |
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whoever made this banner, thanks a bunch for your support. oh, and I just found this Ergo Proxy one, I just had to use it | |
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| Super Goku | Aug 26 2009, 03:07 AM Post #39 |
Vizard Jinchurikii
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I'm a cristian. and i believe in my religion. But i do wrestle with a lot of ideas. I usually dont believe something until i have proof. yet i still believe in what i do. So consider the fact that the planet we live on has a moon perfectly balanced for our earth, which has the right atmosphere and amount of water for supporting life. Our planet is too perfect. Now consider evolution. How could a single cell organism evolve into a primate, and how could this primate evolve in such great leaps and bounds as to turn to a human? When along the line of evolution does a primate begin to have deep thoughts and emotions and common sense? I believe evolution stops at monkeys, and humans were created separately. As stated by the bible when adam and eve were created separate from animals. There is infact, mathematical formulas and equations, depicting intelligent design behind plants and everything in space. how could these things happen by chance? I believe in God because i dont think these amazing things can happen by chance. How can us, us humans, be discussing such a deep topic while we sit hundreds, maybe thousands of miles away from eachother, using little bolts of electricity? This isnt chance. Another argument i have about religion (which i dont know what to make of it really) is one that involves a lot of religions. Multiple religions have the same basic idea. A savior born of a virgin, a star in the east directing three kings to the new born king, this savior has 12 deciples, dies, rises from death 3 days later. I believe because so many religions have similar ideas, that they all base it off of one story that happened in ancient times, and the story was retold so many times that people got different ideas. This one story depicts the true savior of our people. I said i was a guy who needs proof. But really...sometimes there ISNT PROOF. We know there are some things, time and space. We can move through space, we can grasp the idea that things take up space. But we cannot SEE space, or HEAR it, or FEEL it. It just is, and we live in it. We interact with it always. Time is very much real, and we cannot see it or interact with it by choice at ALL. yet everyone believes in time. We just live withing Time. we live withing Space. And like these things that we cannot proove, like time and space, we live with god and the holy spirit. (you can interact with these things as well, almost like space.) You guys were arguing about scriptures in the bible, scriptures anywhere. Scriptures are man made, and men arent perfect. I doubt every word of the bible is completely true. Translations change, there are misinterpretations. Things are lost in translation sometimes. So i believe christanity to be true FOR THE MOST PART. I definitely believe in a higher power, an intelligent being who created us and this world for us. Maybe his name wasnt jesus, maybe some things he was said to have done didnt happen exactly the way we think. But things happened. There is a god and a savior. I believe in my religion. thats my two cents |
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| Kotetsu | Aug 26 2009, 03:07 AM Post #40 |
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SOUPER SAYIN THREE
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Have you seen the golden plates? Do you have a picture of the golden plates? I can't help but be skeptical of your religion if you can't prove the one thing that supposedly created your religion. But you're wrong. It does seem possible that they existed. It's a shame they don't. Even to this day. And how is it a miracle? Please explain without using a passage.
No. Our planet is not perfect. It is a ticking time bomb. It's only a matter of time before the pressure underneath the earth completely erupts and destroys everything. It is said that a pressure bubble pushed to the surface and caused an eruption that could change the climate on a global scale, and destroy most life. That's said to have caused Pangaea to move apart. And if that doesn't do the trick, then the sun will.
It's simple. How do bacteria multiply? How does a virus change to resist vaccine? How are we capable of changing the genetics of a rose to cause it to become white? Look at the history of the human. There was a point in time that we couldn't write our thoughts down. If that doesn't prove evolution, then you're ignoring it. The only reason you have no idea what happened before then, is because we didn't have the brain capabilities to write that down. If we did, there wouldn't be such a thing as Adam and Eve. It'd be a fairy tale. And tell me your talking snake is a more believable idea.
We do not fully understand infinite numbers. Yet chance is exactly that.
It's not chance. And for you to limit life to series of chance is kind of disappointing. If everything in this world happened by chance, then you're entire life is nothing but chance. Everything happens for a reason. There's an explanation to every physical possibility. Just because you don't understand the reason, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it's chance. Volcanoes erupt because of pressure. Diamonds are formed because of pockets of pressure. Plants are formed because a seed falls. A plant evolves to live in the area its at, otherwise it dies. That's the whole purpose of existence, to evolve and take form of the place you live. Viruses do it constantly, and so do we.
Or a fairy tale copied over and over again. Since man started recording events, there has been a need for religion. People fear what they don't understand, and create stories to understand it better.
Thank you. Finally someone who understands the capabilities of man.
Because you were raised to do so. What if you weren't? Would you be saying the same thing? Edited by Kotetsu, Aug 26 2009, 03:28 AM.
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| Super Goku | Aug 26 2009, 03:41 AM Post #41 |
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Vizard Jinchurikii
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yeah i would be thinking different if i was brought up in another religion. A lot of things you disagreed with me about were because you looked at them from a different point of view. speaking of which, someone said no one was around to write the book of genesis, so adam and eve must be fake, or something. There is infact a theory that genesis is a metaphor. meaning snakes did NOT talk. as i said though, there is no proof, so we dont know one way or another about any of this. |
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| -Zero- | Aug 26 2009, 07:00 AM Post #42 |
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Thanks Desi for the first sig and Hustla for the second Don't forget to check out Peter's Blogs- http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8165825/1/ - updated everyday | |
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