Kotetsu

Jul 29 2009, 12:17 PM

Actually, most all religions are written on a basis of fiction.
Let me give you a good example. Try to find a historical document or proof for that matter, that Jesus did anything the Bible says he did, other than just exist as a person. Same thing with Muhammad.

Mormons believe that between 600BC-AD421, A group of people from Jerusalem came to America. Some say that Jesus was with them. Yet there is not, and never has been any findings of these magical tablets that Joseph Smith found, and he was later killed for his view on polygamy. Some say Joesph Smith used Mormonism as a reason to be able to initiate polygamy.
Try finding historical evidence of anything the LDS book says, other than that Joseph Smith was killed by an angry mob.

As for Adam and Eve in the old testament, it's a story. Whoever wrote the old testament, didn't actually witness that event. The entire Judaic-Christian religion is in denial about this event. How can anyone say something is true if no one saw it with their own eyes? Where are the non religious documents showing that this is true?

When I speak of Historical evidence, I mean books. Writings. Teachings. Mass amounts of people being able to retell the same story. All of this that wasn't written by the religion themselves.

-Zero-

Jul 29 2009, 08:21 PM

I'm not saying to be in denial that a god exists

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Try to find a historical document or proof for that matter, that Jesus did anything the Bible says he did, other than just exist as a person. Same thing with Muhammad.

Mc Esse

Jul 31 2009, 05:09 AM

This is where agnosticsm comes into play. In today's era I doubt the clergies of the world are as spiritual as they once were. Religions are more politically motivated than ever. Governors win votes by proclaiming faith in God, but mock His law. Voters get influenced by leaders and proclaim a faith, which they don't follow. Street gangs tag their walls with religious relics. If you see a spray painted painting of the Virgin, chances are the gang is associated with Hispanics. If you notice some writing from the Nation of Islam, chances are the street gang is associated with blacks. Again, it's political. Golden crucifix necklaces; very popular. Yet it's written in the book of Exodus that God forbids the worship or manufacturing a golden idols.

I believe in God but I don't believe in the Church. Although emphasize very loosley on the word "church". I'm just saying church since I use it almost everyday, although by church I mean every religious institution. Ranging from the largest; in Roman Catholicism to [sarcsm]Jimmy and the Lords of Darkness cult[/sarcasm]. The Church invented the bible in order for people to fear God. Therefore, the Church would be able to better control people. And the Church controlled people very well between the collapse of Rome and World War 2. Don't get me wrong, the Church still has ALOT of power, but not as much as it did. I once heard a story that St. Paul, one of the first missionaries of the Church actually sailed the Mediterranean and told people not to bear children, or to bear minimal because the end of the world was near. This was in the year 67 AD btw. Can you say, population control!?

something similiar is happening in America today. America is a melting pot of many cultures as you know. If a nation leader has a chance to use religion to his advantage, I don't see how he won't. "Vote for me, I'm a practising Christian, and that's what we need in a country full of Muslims, Jews and Bhuddists to set them straight" or "I'm voting Mccain because Obama aborts and researches stem cells"(without even knowing what a stem cell is, they'll say that). And if Palin didn't screw up the campaign, Mccain would have won. There are 200 000 000 people in America who claim to be Chrstians, and claim to follow the Chrstian life style.

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Try to find a historical document or proof for that matter, that Jesus did anything the Bible says he did, other than just exist as a person. Same thing with Muhammad.

There is a historical document that prooves Jesus's existence, contrary to popular art he was not a tall, long haired, hunk. He was 5'0 with short hair. Mohammed's pressence is written in a few (or one) war documents. I think his army was a predessor to what was the largest battle upset of all time, when the Arab Caliphate, though outnumbered by 4 times defeated the Greek army of Byzantium. The Greeks never recovered, and their empire shrank until it dissapeared.

Despite all that I have a very Catholic family, my fathers' Catholic, my mother claims to be Catholic. I still go to Church every week, regardless of what I just said.
MARCH OF THE TOOLS.
Seriously though, if there's something about a church in a community I see no harm in that. Apart from listening to the priest babble you're in good company, you have family, everybody has something in common, you're taught values such as "be good" "Don't lie" "don't kill" "don't steal". Nope, I don't see anything wrong there.

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Also all of those moral values you speak of are subject to philosophical relativity. Considering that they are neither right nor wrong.

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When you say that this is where Agnosticism comes into play, you are simply proving us right about denial. Agnosticism is in a way still denial. They are denying the fact that when met with overwhelming evidence that most religions are based off fiction, they still don't know which way to turn. Either they sink into complete denial and become religious, or become atheist.

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I think it's ridiculous if people think it is right to kill or steal, above all others of the Ten Commandments. Killing? That speaks for itself. Stealing? What if somebody worked hard to earn something, and it gets stolen? I mean come on, it's crime! It makes the world an unsafer place to live in.

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I think many Christian sink into denial because of the Chruch, more so than the books of Christendom themselves though. Not many Christians (Muslims, Jews and etc. for that matter) have read their respective Holy Books here in America anyways. In Europe, despite the Church being more spiritual, they have a lower percentage of Christians. The Church has broken a few commandments over the past few decades, where finally people lacked trust in them, and therefore sunk into denial.

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Either way, it's easier to stay Chrstian than it is to leave the faith. Personally if I leave the faith I'll be in denial about what happens to me when I die. I mean, if I believe in Angels and Clouds, then I'll be motivated to be a good boy. If this religion thing is actually right, I'll go to Heaven. If it's wrong, it won't matter, I'll know I've walk through a life and did something good and feel good about myself. The fact is, I (and I'm sure others) are not able to live a life knowing that there's nothing next. I don't know, and you don't know. So I'll just have to guess for now.

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Examples include, Christians at war time, Self defense, Crime and Punishment...
Examples of stealing include, Stealing to save another persons life... etc...
All of which are moral dilemmas in which you did not consider.

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Also earlier you somewhat stated that Christians don't sink into denial.

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Also for all general purposes, refrain from trying to separate Church and Self. We are speaking primarily along the lines of Religion in general, not how a single individual thinks on the issue.

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Why do you need religion to be motivated to be a good person? That's what I don't understand. I have no hopes or care what comes next when I die. What matters to me is the now. Christians make it sound like they are in love with dying. They are so ready for the afterlife that they are completely motivated to get there no matter what it takes; AKA Fundamentalist Muslims.

-Zero-

Jul 29 2009, 05:54 AM

And of course that Jesus didn't literally walk on water I mean come on be honest with yourselves and didn't turn water into wine.