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| 100% freiza vs cooler final form | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 11 2009, 04:36 PM (314 Views) | |
| Brian | Jun 13 2009, 02:40 AM Post #16 |
Homosexual Ogre
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Goku had gotten stronger since his visit on Namek. That's a contribution, firstly. In comparison to the other villains of DBZ, Cooler is one of the least big headed. I think he was enjoying his "revenge," or what he thought it would be. Cooler's 4th form wasn't as strong as Frieza's 4th form. He states, like you said Sam, that he wasn't as strong as Frieza until he surpassed him via 5th form. I would think they're pretty closely matched, but I'm saying the edge goes to Cooler. |
 "They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF | |
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| Rebel X | Jun 13 2009, 03:51 AM Post #17 |
 
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The key factor in your argument presented is that Cooler got arrogant. I'd like to point out that I too watched the movie first I posted from memory, then watched, then posted again with facts and details. If you notice my second post was right before yours Psyam and you almost repeated the EXACT same thing. Cooler was calm, cool and collective prior to the final bout against SSJ Goku. Even when he was getting thrashed around he kept thinking. Just like Frieza, he stayed calm and thought how he would win easily. At one point both brothers discovered that the powers within them against the adversary before them were simply not enough to win. "Desperate times call for desperate measures" and that's what both of them had to do. Both brothers tried to blow up the planet they were hovering on. The Cold family is much alike if you ask me, they have almost the same exact traits and reactions. Cooler and Frieza were initially very smart on how they did things. Cooler knew that this Saiyan Goku could beat his brother against his 4th form at 100%, he might not have a chance. Otherwise why chase Goku at all if you don't have an edge. You said Cooler was a better killer, so he’s not dumb enough to go directly to the same fate as his brother without a plan. He needed reinsurance that he could defeat a Super Saiyan so it was only after he found this final form that he could face Goku. We can’t measure Coolers power level like Friezas with the 15+ episodes we had level by level. Goku versus Cooler was much faster. Goku used kioken 3 times and only once was it really significant (kioken kamehameha vs Cooler). After that they both went straight into the peak of their powers. Goku would not allow Cooler to become stronger and destroy the world. Goku: “I cannot can’t let you take your unhappiness on other people anymore” Cooler rushed to win as well. The difference between Frieza and Coolers situation was simply that Cooler had the power and Frieza had the time. He decided to blow up the planet in 5 minutes because that was the best he could do. Had he the energy and time he would’ve blown up Namek like he did planet Vegeta and like he tried to do with the Earth. Cooler was hardly damaged when he casted a Super Nova attack but he wanted Goku dead and he would’ve probably destroyed the Earth anyhow. I agree that Cooler got arrogant before Goku went Super, but so did his Family. Frieza was cocky countless times against his battle versus Goku. King Cold found his arrogance when he had Trunks sword in his hands. Those quotes you pointed out are just 3 when almost every line Frieza had shown his big-headedness. Point is that it took Goku everything he had and then some to beat Cooler. Goku still had plenty of energy left after he defeated Frieza. Yes Cooler was arrogant but so were Frieza and King Cold. If you don't go by Coolers quote that he was stronger than his brother then at least you can see his other quote of how he can generate energy much quicker. Goku looked away for a second and he had a Super Nova ready while Frieza took a minute or so. The question is Frieza Final Form at 100% VS Coolers Final Form, we can only measure that by looking at Goku and his reactions in the battle. What do you guys think? -I think your someone who loks at two sides of the coin like me and doesn't stay biased on one thing or the other. Am I rambling or does any of this make sense? -Yea, I think your rambling a bit but so was I to get my point across and have it make sense. I think you made sense in your argument. The movie just has more details then what your using in your analysis. Or is it just another not thought out movie flaw? Nah 
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| Brian | Jun 13 2009, 08:42 AM Post #18 |
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Homosexual Ogre
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This, to me, is extremely convincing. He wouldn't be foolish enough to fight Goku even knowing that he defeated Frieza, who could have possibly been as strong or even stronger than he was at the time. I agree. |
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"They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF | |
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| Psyam | Jun 13 2009, 05:23 PM Post #19 |
 
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I don't think Cooler understood the truth depth of Frieza's power. When Frieza powered up to 50% of his maximum, he said he'd never had to summon this much energy to beat a fighter before. Keeping in mind that Cooler said "Frieza always had the edge", it can be assumed they've fought before. That would mean in previous fights, Frieza didn't even have to use 50% of his maximum to beat Cooler. Therefore, how can Cooler know Frieza's real power? And that Goku was stronger then that? Also, judging from what Cooler said, I think that Cooler thought Frieza's death was a fluke, or that Goku had got lucky. I feel I didn't explain my main point very well, it's too wordy so I'm going to try to make it really simple so it's actually readable. Base Goku (Frieza Saga) was around equal to 2% power Frieza. (Frieza commented he was only using 2% of his real power, 1% in the Funimation dub, but I believe its 2% in the manga?) after an even match at the start, in which Goku hadn't started using Kaioken yet. Base Goku (Frieza Saga) = 2% Power Frieza Base Goku in Cooler's Revenge beat 4th form Cooler. Goku can't of got THAT much stronger since Namek, not from a years training in space and a little on Earth. No way. Let's assume Goku was 3 times stronger in Cooler's Revenge then when he fought Frieza, even though even that is unlikely. If Goku in the Frieza saga was roughly equal to 2% of Frieza's Maximum, then 3 times Goku from the Frieza Saga would be roughly equal to 6% of Frieza's full power. He was beating 4th form Cooler at base. Cooler seemed to be getting worried as he transformed pretty quickly after he took a beating. So then, if Goku would be equal to just 6% of Frieza's full power, then 6% Frieza would beat 4th form Cooler. Well, that would mean (in this example, and I've been generous to Goku's power) Cooler would have to become at least 16-17 times more powerful when he transformed to beat 100% Frieza. I don't see that as being very likely. I doubt Goku would of tripled his strength since Namek, either, so it would be more then 17 times. This whole thing seems absurd, as that would mean Final Form Frieza would vastly out power 4th form Cooler. However, how did Cooler even know he could beat Frieza when Frieza has spent many years in his first form, and had never even summoned all of his power against someone before? I think Frieza was by far the stronger brother. Cooler was just too arrogant to see the truth. And that’s why he got beat so much easier then Frieza. I’m pretty certain of this, and if ,dear reader, you managed to read all that and understand it, it comes down to a few questions. Do you think Goku honestly got more then 3x more powerful in a year? Or that Cooler got more then 17 times more powerful when he transformed? Because I don’t. And if you don’t, then 100% Frieza is stronger. At least, that’s what I’ve figure. |
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| SSJVegito | Jun 13 2009, 07:24 PM Post #20 |
Ally to good. Nightmare to you.
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Well Psyam, you pretty much stated what my gut told me before I conceded and said Cooler would win based off his quote. Another thought popped into my mind about that quote though. Vegeta had stated [so many times I can't even count] that he was the strongest in the Universe. But that was just his arrogance talking and everyone knew better. I think it's similar with Cooler. You can't really take that quote as true since the villians in the DB franchise are always saying they're the strongest. And your comparison with base Goku definitely proves that. I was wondering if Cooler even knew the depth of Frieza's power as well. Especially since Frieza stated that he hadn't needed to use that much power before. And if Psyam's right and Cooler fought Frieza, there's no way Cooler could've known his true power then. And I really don't think that Goku, at his his SSJ form, got much stronger if at all. He didn't know how to transform at will yet and still required a great deal of rage to trigger the transformation. And since it's an alternate timeline than canon DBZ, it could just be that Goku fixed his ship and came straight home after the battle with Frieza. Not much training there. Especially sitting in his Ginyu space pod. |
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| RyDub | Jun 19 2009, 10:01 PM Post #21 |
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Let us not forget Goku is full blooded sayian and as we all know after every battle they only get stronger the bigger beating they take. So by the time cooler arrives he logically has to be stronger then he was when he fought freiza in any form. |
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| BattleMetal | Jun 19 2009, 10:20 PM Post #22 |
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OFF TOPIC- Mmm i had this theory (which it is just that so dont chew me out for this just keep an open mind, nothing to really back this up). The saiyans only get stronger after near death experiences and being fully recovered back to full up until they reach Super Saiyan form. Once they attain this form their power level will not increase after they recover from near fatal attacks. Its like their saiyan evolutions are kicked into hyper-drive to reach the super saiyan form, once they do it is up to the warrior to ascend. Vegetas PL doesnt increase after he is kicked to near death by android 18, it remains the same hence why he needs to train to ascend. Mystic Gohan gets battered to near death by Gotenks-Buu and is healed by Dende, however his power level does not increase. However Cell makes an exception to this rule, he is better because he does still advance after near death experiences. He not only has the DNA and abilities of the Z warriors but also is better with them (Piccolos regeneration another example). Just a theory remember. ON TOPIC- Frieza 100% still to win despite Cooler being a more level headed fighter (kinda). |
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| Psyam | Jun 19 2009, 10:29 PM Post #23 |
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Actually, I had much the same idea. I think also that the closer to becoming a Super Saiyan a Saiyan gets, the bigger their power boosts get. This is shown in how Vegeta only got a bit stronger after his fight with Goku, a decent amount stronger after fighting Zarbon, then a huge amount stronger after fighting Recoome and an even bigger increase after being blasted by Krillin, all while he kept getting closer to becoming a Super Saiyan. Anyway, to be realistic, we could assume Base Goku went from equal to 2% Frieza on Namek to about 2.5-3% Frieza back on Earth. He still beat Cooler's 4th form at base, which would mean Cooler would have to get at least 33 times stronger (using Goku's power as 3% of Frieza's full) when he transformed to beat 100% Frieza. I doubt Cooler's transformation is that powerful. Unless there's a big hole in what I'm saying, I think simple maths is prevailing over Cooler's statement that he was the strongest (and as SSJVegito said, basically every villain said that, even when it wasn't true). |
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| BattleMetal | Jun 19 2009, 10:49 PM Post #24 |
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Yes Pysam i think this could the case with saiyans once they get past a certain point theyre power levels very quickly jump as long as they can recover from near death. Another theory i had was maybe its like they become immune to certain healing methods. Goku constanly used Senzu beans, Vegeta used the healing chambers all the time. After a while their bodies get too used to it however when they are introduced to a new healing method their bodies respond more positvely. Gokus reaction to the Healing chamber he uses on Friezas ship after fighting Ginyu. Vegetas reaction to the Senzu bean after being beat up by Reacoom. (vegeta also finally gets a bit of rest when they are waiting on Dende just before they face Frieza. This gives his body time to catch up and increase his strength) Yeah this is often said, 'Im the strongest in the Universe blah blah'. Vegeta says it but i always thought of it as him meaning the strongest of the Sayians. Burter says hes the fastest but i felt like he meant out of the Ginyu squad (barring of course Captain Ginyu himself) and out of his race. I get the feeling that Cooler was better than say 50% Frieza but would not be better than 100% Frieza based on how poorly he does against Goku SS. Cooler might never have faced Frieza at 100%. I know Goku is potentially stronger than he fought Frieza but its a movie, a bad one to boot. Have to make things dramatic. Cooler doesnt even dent Goku. That is until he does that big attack and Goku breaks a sweat pushing it back towards him. Hard life |
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| Meta Cooler | Jul 13 2009, 02:19 AM Post #25 |
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GUYS!  The reason that Cooler doesn't last as long as Freiza did against SSJ Goku was because the fight was in a movie! Freiza had a whole Saga of battles with the Z Fighters. Personally I think that having a Cooler Saga in DBZ would have been hands down kick *****. I take Cooler because of his Supernova attack. He'd oblterate Freiza on short notice. FY! : In the Meta Cooler movie, if Goku and Vegeta didn't destroy the Big Gete star, Cooler would have killed both of them. At the start he was just toying with them. 
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 An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good!' If you can't see the bright side of life, polish the dull side. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it. | |
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| Brian | Jul 13 2009, 05:01 AM Post #26 |
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Homosexual Ogre
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This is yet another thing that is either very confusing, or proof that Mecha Frieza isn't as strong as Final Frieza. Trunks slices Mecha Frieza to pieces, then Goku proves that he is stronger than Trunks. This happens prior to the fight with Cooler. Either Cooler is stronger because of what's shown in Frieza's conflict with Trunks, or it is impossible to determine since Frieza's power is unknown in the Mecha state. On the flip side, you could assume that Frieza really -was- indeed stronger before the Mecha "upgrade," and you can go by what Sam says. |
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"They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF | |
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| BUU | Jul 17 2009, 08:17 PM Post #27 |
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This is an intense debate because both sides are convincing, but I will have to go with Cooler. There are a few things that I would like to bring up. In the fight against Goku in his base form, many people say that Cooler got his butt kicked. I would have to disagree. Cooler never took any serious damage. He only got punched a couple of times.Otherwise, he evened up with Goku. The reason why he transformed was because he probably knew that it was pointless to fight Goku in his base form because they were even. Another point I would like to bring up is that since Frieza beat normal Goku with 2% of his power, there's no way that even transformed Cooler could beat Fireza unless his transformation powered him up by x17 or x18, which many say is illogical. However, nothing in DBZ is logical;energy blasts, flying, destroying planets, etc. Besides, Frieza raises his power from 12,000,000 to 120,000,000 when he uses 100% full power. This is a x10 increase! Also, Goku x20 his power when he uses Kaio-ken. So why is it impossible for Cooler to x18 his power? Also, many people say that while Cooler got his butt kicked by S.S Goku, Frieza put up a good fight. Well, I admit that this is a good point, but I did some research and found a important, yet not really acknowledged difference between the anime and the manga. In the anime, Frieza puts an intense fight against S.S. Goku(and at one point was winning), but in the manga, even at 100% full power, he still was not much of a challenge for Goku. Another key factor is that Goku powered up a little since Namek, but if that wasn't enough, Cooler's eye laser nearly killed Goku (good thing he got a senzu). This was a near death experience and according to Vegeta, after a near death experience, after a saiyan is fully recovered, they become stronger. Some say that Cooler wouldn't even beat 50% full power, but I disagree. At 50% full power, Frieza was equal to Kaio-ken x20 (both had a power level of 60,000,000). Yet in the movie, Cooler trashes Kaio-ken x10 and x20 with ease. Also Frieza struggled with a x20 kamehameha, but Cooler acted as if it was nothing and jumped into the kamehameha and "swam" through it. And since Cooler easily defeated Kaio-ken while Frieza struggled, it's obvious that Cooler wins against 50% full power. Another key thing to remember is that on the battle of Namek, Frieza 100% Full power launched possibly his most stongest attack, The 100% full power death ball, yet Goku punched it back as if it were a volleyball. However, Cooler's most powerful attack took Goku all his energy to reflect because he immediately returned to normal. While against Frieza, he remained Super Saiyan and even had enough energy to give to Frieza. And my last point is that if Cooler was losing, he'd use his ability to gather energy exremely fast to create a Supernova and launch it at Frieza. Since it took S.S. Goku (who is more powerful than Frieza) all his energy to repel the supernova, Frieza would struggle but not prevail. Although some people might say that since Mecha Frieza can do a Supernova, 100% Full power can.Well, IF that were true, Frieza's would be much weaker because Trunks easily repelled it with one hand (and since Trunks had around the same power as S.S. Goku) it would be obvious that Cooler's is stronger. Well, I guess Cooler would win due to these factors. Well, that's just my two cents. |
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| Psyam | Jul 17 2009, 08:44 PM Post #28 |
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I've pretty much stated my opinion in my second to last post, but I'll just say now that you should keep in mind that Frieza was severely injured when he fought SSJ Goku. Cooler wasn't but couldn't even hurt Goku. The only reason it took all of Goku's power to repel the Supernova was because Cooler caught him totally off guard. He couldn't just Kamehameha it or anything...he barely had any time to prepare at all. If the attack had been into the air, Goku could have just got off it like Vegeta did to Goku's Kamehameha in the Saiyan saga, but he had to use all his energy stopping the momentum quickly to save the Earth. Goku had to struggle against Frieza's 100% Deathball, despite the fact that Frieza was VERY badly injured by the Spirit Bomb. So badly that he couldn't even hang on to his full power. As for Zenkai's, they pretty much become redundent and vanish after the Namek saga. I don't think you can use them in an argument. In my opinion the Saiyan's ability to get stronger after wounds is more of a bridge to becomming a Super Saiyan. Once they did, it was never mentioned again (apart from Cell getting a power up from seld-destructing, but that was Cell, not a Super Saiyan). Again I'll just say...it depends how strong you think Cooler's transformation is. Unless it's the Super Saiyan equivelent of his race, I don't think he'd win. Base Goku did have a clear advantage over Cooler's 4th form. I'd just watched the battle when I wrote that. |
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| BUU | Jul 17 2009, 08:56 PM Post #29 |
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The only reason it took all of Goku's power to repel the Supernova was because Cooler caught him totally off guard. He couldn't just Kamehameha it or anything... well technically,he had repelled the supernova with a kamehameha. And even if you are off guard, you have to be prepared for something like that. Goku had to struggle against Frieza's 100% Deathball, despite the fact that Frieza was VERY badly injured by the Spirit Bomb. So badly that he couldn't even hang on to his full power. I thought he couldn't hold on to his full power because he already strained his body too much by using 50% full power. I also have been thinking about what people said about what people said about Cooler not knowing Frieza's true power, and I came to a conclusion that it's like turning from S.S. to SS2, there are ways to totally max out the Super Saiyan's power(such as Ascended Super Saiyan Full power Super Saiyan, etc.) Well, 100% full power is like that. Cooler must know about 100%, because it's like a stage you have to pass in order to go on to the next transformation. Anyway, judging form your opinion Psyam, I would call this a very close battle. Almost like a coin toss. Edited by BUU, Jul 18 2009, 06:38 PM.
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