If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we don’t limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesn’t take long and you can get posting right away.
we all know the manga powerscale, you know, the one where characters' powers actually make sense, but the anime powerscale is thrown off by filler. in the manga, ultimate gohan is the strongest character barring fusions and absorptions, and is actually stronger than 3 fused characters: fat buu (majin buu, south kaioshin, dai kaioshin) super buu (good buu, evil buu) and gotenks (goten, trunks).
in the anime, however, this is thrown off by filler. goku was fighting ultimate gohan, not regular gohan. there is an art difference between the 2, mainly in the hairstyle. vegeta was fighting gotenks. these figments are just as powerful as the real things, by goku's statement.
kid buu was stated twice to be the most powerful buu, in the japanese, so it can't even be blamed on the crappy funi dub. in the anime, kid buu was more powerful than buuhan, it was flat out stated that he was the most powerful.
it doesn't matter whether these 2 points make sense or not. they were stated, and are not open to interpretation. it's filler-made plotholes like these that are the reason the anime is useless as a source of information.
I don't like the illusion comparison. In actuality, Gotenks and Gohan weren't even beaten; they were knocked down, got up, surrounded Goku and Vegeta, and then turned into cake. This is if you are in the mindset that these "illusions" were comparable in power to their real counterparts. I don't even believe that much, and I don't believe that Toie or AT even wanted us to believe that, although that's just speculation.
Anyway, the first part of this post is pretty solid evidence that the illusions can't prove that Goku or Vegeta are stronger than Mystic Gohan or SSJ3 Gotenks, even if you are making an anime nonsensical power scale comparison.
I totally agree with that.
I understand why Cocoman and lunar think the way they do, but some of their evidence is very flawed, like the one mentioned above. There just isn't enough evidence in the anime to assume that Goku is stronger than Gohan, and that Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks. Sorry, but there's not. Especially when:
1) The illusions probably were not as strong as the real thing. Who cares if Goku said it, it doesn't mean he was referring to Ultimate Gohan or that it's true.
2) Gohan defeated Super Buu. Goku could barely take on Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
I'm so confused as to how anyone could think that MSSJ Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That one flawed scene honestly means nothing when deciding this. Sorry.
Speaking of which, how can you take into consideration the illusion fight, but not SSJ3 Goku being maybe on par with Fat Buu, when Super Buu is certainly stronger than Fat Buu, and Mystic Gohan is certainly stronger than Super Buu? You're choosing points in the anime to use as reference and then discarding the rest.
I suppose a good question to ask, which might clear all of this up for is:
Are you making you power scale COMPLETELY based on filler, NONE of it based on ANYTHING that actually happened in the manga?
Because then you have as reference:
1.Illusion fight
2.SSJ2 Goku vs. Kid Buu fight
3. Anime statements
This seems like little to base a power scale off of, but I guess I could sort of see where you're coming from...
darkwarrior
has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Trunks just bought his sword somewhere or something? There's nothing really special about it.
Y2J
Well it did manage to slice Frieza into a shishkebab so it must've been packing more power than your average blade. Hell even Zelda's sword couldn't pull off that ****.
ObsessiveFanGirl
I don't believe in power levels after the Frieza Saga.
we all know the manga powerscale, you know, the one where characters' powers actually make sense, but the anime powerscale is thrown off by filler. in the manga, ultimate gohan is the strongest character barring fusions and absorptions, and is actually stronger than 3 fused characters: fat buu (majin buu, south kaioshin, dai kaioshin) super buu (good buu, evil buu) and gotenks (goten, trunks).
in the anime, however, this is thrown off by filler. goku was fighting ultimate gohan, not regular gohan. there is an art difference between the 2, mainly in the hairstyle. vegeta was fighting gotenks. these figments are just as powerful as the real things, by goku's statement.
kid buu was stated twice to be the most powerful buu, in the japanese, so it can't even be blamed on the crappy funi dub. in the anime, kid buu was more powerful than buuhan, it was flat out stated that he was the most powerful.
it doesn't matter whether these 2 points make sense or not. they were stated, and are not open to interpretation. it's filler-made plotholes like these that are the reason the anime is useless as a source of information.
I don't like the illusion comparison. In actuality, Gotenks and Gohan weren't even beaten; they were knocked down, got up, surrounded Goku and Vegeta, and then turned into cake. This is if you are in the mindset that these "illusions" were comparable in power to their real counterparts. I don't even believe that much, and I don't believe that Toie or AT even wanted us to believe that, although that's just speculation.
Anyway, the first part of this post is pretty solid evidence that the illusions can't prove that Goku or Vegeta are stronger than Mystic Gohan or SSJ3 Gotenks, even if you are making an anime nonsensical power scale comparison.
I totally agree with that.
I understand why Cocoman and lunar think the way they do, but some of their evidence is very flawed, like the one mentioned above. There just isn't enough evidence in the anime to assume that Goku is stronger than Gohan, and that Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks. Sorry, but there's not. Especially when:
1) The illusions probably were not as strong as the real thing. Who cares if Goku said it, it doesn't mean he was referring to Ultimate Gohan or that it's true.
2) Gohan defeated Super Buu. Goku could barely take on Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
I'm so confused as to how anyone could think that MSSJ Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That one flawed scene honestly means nothing when deciding this. Sorry.
Speaking of which, how can you take into consideration the illusion fight, but not SSJ3 Goku being maybe on par with Fat Buu, when Super Buu is certainly stronger than Fat Buu, and Mystic Gohan is certainly stronger than Super Buu? You're choosing points in the anime to use as reference and then discarding the rest.
I suppose a good question to ask, which might clear all of this up for is:
Are you making you power scale COMPLETELY based on filler, NONE of it based on ANYTHING that actually happened in the manga?
Because then you have as reference:
1.Illusion fight
2.SSJ2 Goku vs. Kid Buu fight
3. Anime statements
This seems like little to base a power scale off of, but I guess I could sort of see where you're coming from...
I'm assuming you're not referring to me? lol. Because I completely agree with you. Basing all this off of a single instance of filler is silly.
has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Trunks just bought his sword somewhere or something? There's nothing really special about it.
Y2J
Well it did manage to slice Frieza into a shishkebab so it must've been packing more power than your average blade. Hell even Zelda's sword couldn't pull off that ****.
ObsessiveFanGirl
I don't believe in power levels after the Frieza Saga.
1) The illusions probably were not as strong as the real thing. Who cares if Goku said it, it doesn't mean he was referring to Ultimate Gohan or that it's true.
Ultimate Gohan was the only Gohan in existence at the time. You know how nonsensical it would be for Goku to be referring to an earlier version of Gohan?
Goku: "He's just as strong as the real thing." (something very similar to that, if not that exact line)
Key words being "real thing", which at the time, was Ultimate Gohan.
Quote:
2) Gohan defeated Super Buu. Goku could barely take on Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
Goku could have annihilated Fat Boo and was fighting evenly with Kid Boo.
This is annoying, the clear difference between the two interpretations is obvious. In order to make goku the hero they HAD to make him defeat kid buu, especially if its with a spirit bomb, which NO ONE can control but him.
Why is it you guys are arguing over hypotheticals? kid buu KILLED EVRYONE!!! the japanese version did state him as the most dangerous, not powerful. But at the same time no one could stop kid buu. Why? ill tell you why, the comic and anime ALREADY told you why. He has no inhibitions, and therefore no restraint on his power. Without dai kaioshin and south kais goodness holding him back, kid buu would blow up a planet to prove a point. Oh wait, he already did. Yu guys can argue if you want but hte stories been told and none of you are right, as your scales are made for the wrong reason.
Being realistic about how strong everyone was makes sense if you care, but in the end? the last two standing was goku and kid buu, in both interpretations, get over it.
The spirit bomb has elements of gokus power in it, so whoever said its NOT his power is wrong, all of the times goku has used a spirit bomb it drains him hardcore. In gt he almost died from it. The spirit bomb is a technique that requires precision and concentration to make it work, what? did you think the ball forms itself? who controls it? how many people have managed to push it back? Just one, kid buu.
So argue all you want over something that doesnt matter, its already been decided. Kid buu > everyone and didnt have a hard time doing it. The most powerful doesnt matter, its who has the brains to survive and pull it off. Everyone else died, so why bother caring about how strong they were?
This is annoying, the clear difference between the two interpretations is obvious. In order to make goku the hero they HAD to make him defeat kid buu, especially if its with a spirit bomb, which NO ONE can control but him.
Why is it you guys are arguing over hypotheticals? kid buu KILLED EVRYONE!!! the japanese version did state him as the most dangerous, not powerful. But at the same time no one could stop kid buu. Why? ill tell you why, the comic and anime ALREADY told you why. He has no inhibitions, and therefore no restraint on his power. Without dai kaioshin and south kais goodness holding him back, kid buu would blow up a planet to prove a point. Oh wait, he already did. Yu guys can argue if you want but hte stories been told and none of you are right, as your scales are made for the wrong reason.
Being realistic about how strong everyone was makes sense if you care, but in the end? the last two standing was goku and kid buu, in both interpretations, get over it.
The spirit bomb has elements of gokus power in it, so whoever said its NOT his power is wrong, all of the times goku has used a spirit bomb it drains him hardcore. In gt he almost died from it. The spirit bomb is a technique that requires precision and concentration to make it work, what? did you think the ball forms itself? who controls it? how many people have managed to push it back? Just one, kid buu.
So argue all you want over something that doesnt matter, its already been decided. Kid buu > everyone and didnt have a hard time doing it. The most powerful doesnt matter, its who has the brains to survive and pull it off. Everyone else died, so why bother caring about how strong they were?
Yeah, well Goku wasn't SSJ2 in Movie 10!
Lol, just trolling, just trolling.
darkwarrior
has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Trunks just bought his sword somewhere or something? There's nothing really special about it.
Y2J
Well it did manage to slice Frieza into a shishkebab so it must've been packing more power than your average blade. Hell even Zelda's sword couldn't pull off that ****.
ObsessiveFanGirl
I don't believe in power levels after the Frieza Saga.
1) The illusions probably were not as strong as the real thing. Who cares if Goku said it, it doesn't mean he was referring to Ultimate Gohan or that it's true.
Ultimate Gohan was the only Gohan in existence at the time. You know how nonsensical it would be for Goku to be referring to an earlier version of Gohan?
Goku: "He's just as strong as the real thing." (something very similar to that, if not that exact line)
Key words being "real thing", which at the time, was Ultimate Gohan.
Quote:
2) Gohan defeated Super Buu. Goku could barely take on Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
Goku could have annihilated Fat Boo and was fighting evenly with Kid Boo.
Buu Body was filler, no KP?
so it's irrelevant.
Also, you and I both know Goku in the anime is hax.
1) The illusions probably were not as strong as the real thing. Who cares if Goku said it, it doesn't mean he was referring to Ultimate Gohan or that it's true.
Ultimate Gohan was the only Gohan in existence at the time. You know how nonsensical it would be for Goku to be referring to an earlier version of Gohan?
Goku: "He's just as strong as the real thing." (something very similar to that, if not that exact line)
Key words being "real thing", which at the time, was Ultimate Gohan.
Quote:
2) Gohan defeated Super Buu. Goku could barely take on Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
Goku could have annihilated Fat Boo and was fighting evenly with Kid Boo.
I believe I explained that in one of my first posts.
When Goku said that, he was not referring to Ultimate Gohan for a couple of reasons.
1) Goku had never fought Ultimate Gohan or even watched him fight. He had never seen the true extent of his power - only felt it when Gohan was first given the power by Elder Kai. And even then, he barely felt it. He never even saw or felt Ultimate Gohan power up, so there was no way Goku could have known how powerful Ultimate Gohan truly was.
2) Goku had seen regular Gohan fight and power up to his maximum at the Worlds Martial Arts Tournament. This is the power that he was referring to. Goku said that the "clone" inside of Buu was "just like the real thing," yes, but "real thing" doesn't necessarily mean the current level of power that Gohan was at. It just meant... the real Gohan. There isn't much to it, really. He was referring to Gohan's power as he had seen it at the tournament, because he had never truly felt Ultimate Gohan's power.
That's really all there is to say about that. It's common sense.
Also, it was never stated that Goku could have annihilated Fat Buu, so I don't know where you got that from. He was holding back some of his power, sure, but he couldn't have flat out annihilated him because it was never stated, or even really hinted to.
1) Goku had never fought Ultimate Gohan or even watched him fight. He had never seen the true extent of his power - only felt it when Gohan was first given the power by Elder Kai. And even then, he barely felt it. He never even saw or felt Ultimate Gohan power up, so there was no way Goku could have known how powerful Ultimate Gohan truly was.
He could sense Gohan from the Kai planet, just like he could sense Gotenks and Boo, so he did know how powerful Gohan was.
Quote:
2) Goku had seen regular Gohan fight and power up to his maximum at the Worlds Martial Arts Tournament. This is the power that he was referring to. Goku said that the "clone" inside of Buu was "just like the real thing," yes, but "real thing" doesn't necessarily mean the current level of power that Gohan was at. It just meant... the real Gohan. There isn't much to it, really. He was referring to Gohan's power as he had seen it at the tournament, because he had never truly felt Ultimate Gohan's power.
He did feel Ultimate Gohan's true power and the real Gohan was Ultimate Gohan. For him to be referring to a previous version of Gohan would be like saying Piccolo meant SSj Kid Gohan instead of SSj2 Kid Gohan when comparing SSj2 Majin Vegeta, or like saying Vegeta meant Gohan from the Namek fights when he said Goku's power was greater than Gohan's was "back then". It's always the most recent incarnation.
Quote:
Also, it was never stated that Goku could have annihilated Fat Buu, so I don't know where you got that from. He was holding back some of his power, sure, but he couldn't have flat out annihilated him because it was never stated, or even really hinted to.
It was more of a throwaway line instead of him actually expressing any concern over the difficulty in which he would've accomplished the task, so I don't doubt he could have annihilated him. He was fighting evenly with Kid Boo, after all, and Kid Boo was a lot more powerful than Fat Boo.
^^Well, Goku did say on the Kai's planet to Vegeta that he could have beaten Fat Buu, but he let the kids have a chance. Goku also could most likely feel Gohan's power from the Kai's planet when he was fighting Buutenks, considering that Gohan could feel Goku's SSJ3 from the Kai's planet.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that that list is pretty flawed, but I do differ in opinion concerning this issue.
has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Trunks just bought his sword somewhere or something? There's nothing really special about it.
Y2J
Well it did manage to slice Frieza into a shishkebab so it must've been packing more power than your average blade. Hell even Zelda's sword couldn't pull off that ****.
ObsessiveFanGirl
I don't believe in power levels after the Frieza Saga.
I also agree that the anime is messed up. Kid Boo is both the strongest and one of the weakest forms of Boo, and Fat Boo is both stronger and weaker than Kid Boo somehow. I'm not saying it should be taken as anything other than pure entertainment, but trying to fix the mistakes in the anime doesn't work for every little one.
Well, my thing is the fact that you can't make a power level comparison list for the Buus regarding the anime. You have to pick and choose which statements and which fights you want to use as your basis, meaning there is no way to make a definitive list for the anime as some were doing previously.
darkwarrior
has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe Trunks just bought his sword somewhere or something? There's nothing really special about it.
Y2J
Well it did manage to slice Frieza into a shishkebab so it must've been packing more power than your average blade. Hell even Zelda's sword couldn't pull off that ****.
ObsessiveFanGirl
I don't believe in power levels after the Frieza Saga.
Well, my thing is the fact that you can't make a power level comparison list for the Buus regarding the anime. You have to pick and choose which statements and which fights you want to use as your basis, meaning there is no way to make a definitive list for the anime as some were doing previously.
So true. lol.
I still don't quite believe that the clone was the same as Ultimate Gohan, but whatev. It's just filler anyways.
ファイナルフラッシュ
4:52 PM Jul 13