Killing and the Army

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Killing and the Army
Topic Started: May 17 2009, 10:25 PM (434 Views)
jonnoley	Jul 1 2009, 04:16 PM Post #31
Death Note, NOT TWILIGHT! Posts: 63 Group: Member Member #3,988 Joined: February 16, 2009 Favourite Anime Hellsing What Browser do you use? Opera Favourite Manga Death Note	Right, before I put my own views, I want to bring up a philisophical question I heard recently. It was written by some greek philosophist. (If anyone knows who, please say.) You are in the ocean. You have a piece of driftwood that can only support one person. Another man is in front of you, drowning. Is it Ok to let him die to save your own life? Anyway, I could never join the army, simply because I believe that it's inherantly evil, because it teaches people to kill. I couldn't kill someone. Ever. If someone held a gun to my head and said "In five seconds I will kill you" I couldn't kill him (assuming I have a gun). I could try to talk him out of it, but this is unlikely since I have five seconds and he's a nutter. But I could die knowing I tried, mainly because I have soome morbid curiosity about the afterlife. I believe that we repay all of our evil actions eventually, (Yes, karma.) So if I kill him, am I better than him? Will I escape the penalty? I would like to note that this is all hypothetical, and I might actually just shoot him. And in answer to my own philisophical question, I would let him grab one side of the wood, I would grab the other, and we would both survive a few minutes longer. Oh, BTW. Ignore the signature. Edited by jonnoley, Jul 1 2009, 04:17 PM.
	Can't be bothered changing the Alex one. Here's the Bioshock one again instead.


*Sousen Ichimonji*	Jul 1 2009, 04:29 PM Post #32
Generic Disney Villain Posts: 527 Group: Assistant Rep Member #3,986 Joined: February 15, 2009 Favourite Anime Bleach, Hellsing What Browser do you use? IE8/Firefox Favourite Manga Bleach, Ai Kora	jonnoley Jul 1 2009, 04:16 PM Anyway, I could never join the army, simply because I believe that it's inherantly evil, because it teaches people to kill. I'd like to point out the incredible irony here: you are currently a member of the army cadets. I understand that that does not mean you wish to follow a career in the army, but if you are morally against it, then why are you in the army's youth group? I'm not saying this to impress anyone, and I hope this doesn't lower anyones opinions of me. Although it will, almost certainly: I would kill someone else to save my own life. Take from this what you will. Am I cowardly? Probably. Am I a selfish being? Most certainly. Am I wrong? In my opinion, no. It is natural to want to survive, to continue.
	Thanks to AngelicHottieDS for the sig - I owe you one! ...And it feels so good to be Alive and on top My reach is global My tower secure My cause is noble My power is pure I can hand out a million vaccinations Or let'em all die in exasperation Have'em all healed of their lacerations Or have'em all killed by assassination...


Kotetsu	Jul 1 2009, 04:59 PM Post #33
SOUPER SAYIN THREE Posts: 6,108 Group: Admin Adviser Member #48 Joined: December 17, 2004 Favourite Anime Naruto What Browser do you use? Firefox, anything else is for failures. Favourite Manga Naruto Shippuuden, Straight from Japan.	I don't see killing as morally right or wrong. I just don't kill because I'd rather someone not kill me.
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Haze55	Jul 1 2009, 07:07 PM Post #34
~Out on the Tiles~ Posts: 918 Group: Member Member #1,787 Joined: October 5, 2006	Quote: Do you think, that in the name of your country, in the "name" of peace, that you'd kill? COULD you kill? In a firefight, you kill because if you don't you or one of your buddies will be killed. It has nothing to do with world peace or the name of your country, or any of that garbage. It comes down to survival, and I am perfectly capable of killing for my survival. The cause couldn't make less of a difference in that situation. People who tell you it's your "duty" to join the military are *** bureaucrats who don't know *** about what they are talking about. Join for your own reasons, not because some jerk bullies you into it. If you don't think you can kill, if you have any sort of issue with killing a person who has a gun aimed at you than you don't belong in combat position. So just don't worry about it. You don't HAVE to join the military.



jonnoley	Jul 1 2009, 10:19 PM Post #35
Death Note, NOT TWILIGHT! Posts: 63 Group: Member Member #3,988 Joined: February 16, 2009 Favourite Anime Hellsing What Browser do you use? Opera Favourite Manga Death Note	Quote: People who tell you it's your "duty" to join the military are *** bureaucrats who don't know *** about what they are talking about. Join for your own reasons, not because some jerk bullies you into it. Excactly. Most people join the army "to protect their homes" because they're misinformed, lied to, and bullied into it. In my opinion. Anyway, yes, I am in the army cadets. But, only really cause I have friends there. It's more basic fieldcraft skills than shooting, and I hate shooting. The benefits far outweigh the irony of being part of "the army's youth group". I object to the army, but even through your illogical distaste for the cadets, you must admit it helps people who either haven't worked enough to have qualifications, or just don't know what to do in life. (Sorry for being some sort of army cadet propagandist...) And yeah. I suppose, in the present day, Darwinism is Survival of the Fittest on crack. When any human can kill another with about 10 joules of energy, killling is slightly unavoidable. We base TV around it, books, games, almost all modern culture is concentrated on killing. So in the end, most people are deadend towards violence, and can kill easily. Or something like that.
	Can't be bothered changing the Alex one. Here's the Bioshock one again instead.


Kotetsu	Jul 2 2009, 01:14 AM Post #36
SOUPER SAYIN THREE Posts: 6,108 Group: Admin Adviser Member #48 Joined: December 17, 2004 Favourite Anime Naruto What Browser do you use? Firefox, anything else is for failures. Favourite Manga Naruto Shippuuden, Straight from Japan.	jonnoley Jul 1 2009, 10:19 PM Quote: People who tell you it's your "duty" to join the military are *** bureaucrats who don't know *** about what they are talking about. Join for your own reasons, not because some jerk bullies you into it. Excactly. Most people join the army "to protect their homes" because they're misinformed, lied to, and bullied into it. In my opinion. Anyway, yes, I am in the army cadets. But, only really cause I have friends there. It's more basic fieldcraft skills than shooting, and I hate shooting. The benefits far outweigh the irony of being part of "the army's youth group". I object to the army, but even through your illogical distaste for the cadets, you must admit it helps people who either haven't worked enough to have qualifications, or just don't know what to do in life. (Sorry for being some sort of army cadet propagandist...) And yeah. I suppose, in the present day, Darwinism is Survival of the Fittest on crack. When any human can kill another with about 10 joules of energy, killling is slightly unavoidable. We base TV around it, books, games, almost all modern culture is concentrated on killing. So in the end, most people are deadend towards violence, and can kill easily. Or something like that. Well think of it this way, in the 1800s and before then, people would kill each other over an argument in a duel. ie Alexander Hamilton. We've come a long way to denounce murder as a moral wrong, but I still see it as a relative idea.
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Mitas	Jul 2 2009, 12:30 PM Post #37
Subject To Change Posts: 3,070 Group: Super Moderator Member #2,993 Joined: December 16, 2007 Favourite Anime DBZ What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga DBZ	The Crack Fox Jul 1 2009, 04:29 PM I'm not saying this to impress anyone, and I hope this doesn't lower anyones opinions of me. Although it will, almost certainly: I would kill someone else to save my own life. Take from this what you will. Am I cowardly? Probably. Am I a selfish being? Most certainly. Am I wrong? In my opinion, no. It is natural to want to survive, to continue. I can't see how someone's opinion could be lowered by that statement. Mine certainly isn't. I agree totally; if I had to kill somebody else to save my life then I would do it. Unless it was family or close friends, then it's different. But it's human nature to survive, and if that means killing another human being so that I survive then so be it. However like I said, unless I get conscripted into the army, or some crazy guy comes up to me or I get put in a 1 in a million crazy situation, I'm not going to have to do it because I'm not going to put myself in that position.
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*Brian*	Jul 3 2009, 12:02 AM Post #38
Homosexual Ogre Posts: 927 Group: Troll Member #4,185 Joined: May 9, 2009 What Browser do you use? Firefox	If people can hunt and kill harmless, helpless animals, they can kill dangerous, cold ones too. Insurgent scum? Nothing more than a mindless animal with hatred in its heart. I could serve my country today, rid the world of such evil without hesitation, and smile in pride at the end of the day. Every man is responsible for his fate. With rules comes consequences. I also noticed a couple statements about people killing another at the stake of their own life. My opinion on that: Yeah, you called it bub. That's definitely the way of the coward. Despicable. Every life lived should be in the service of leaving this world a better place. The only way to stop war is to teach everyone the way of peace, logic, and reasoning. Bigotry, instinct, anger, insecurity, lack of self control, these are all things that cause people to become violent. If everyone had warmth and kindness in their lives, these emotions would surely be suppressed if they were even present.
	"They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF


Mitas	Jul 3 2009, 08:38 AM Post #39
Subject To Change Posts: 3,070 Group: Super Moderator Member #2,993 Joined: December 16, 2007 Favourite Anime DBZ What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga DBZ	Brian Jul 3 2009, 12:02 AM I also noticed a couple statements about people killing another at the stake of their own life. My opinion on that: Yeah, you called it bub. That's definitely the way of the coward. Despicable. Every life lived should be in the service of leaving this world a better place. Why is it cowardly to want to survive? We're not saying we'd happily do it, but we'd do it because we want to live. Sure it's heroic to give your own life so that somebody else may survive, but that doesn't make you cowardly if you don't, it just makes you human. And also here's a hypothetical question. I assume you're young, late teens-early twenties. What if you were in a situation where a madman had you and an 82 year old man with a cancer that meant he had only a couple years to live and you had to kill him to survive, what would you do then? Edited by Mitas, Jul 3 2009, 08:39 AM.
	I'm no longer sig-less thanks to AngelicHottieDS! Check out my blog Words From Dan. Feedback appreciated! "To appreciate the very good, you must experience the very bad."


Kotetsu	Jul 3 2009, 12:04 PM Post #40
SOUPER SAYIN THREE Posts: 6,108 Group: Admin Adviser Member #48 Joined: December 17, 2004 Favourite Anime Naruto What Browser do you use? Firefox, anything else is for failures. Favourite Manga Naruto Shippuuden, Straight from Japan.	Mitas Jul 3 2009, 08:38 AM Brian Jul 3 2009, 12:02 AM I also noticed a couple statements about people killing another at the stake of their own life. My opinion on that: Yeah, you called it bub. That's definitely the way of the coward. Despicable. Every life lived should be in the service of leaving this world a better place. Why is it cowardly to want to survive? We're not saying we'd happily do it, but we'd do it because we want to live. Sure it's heroic to give your own life so that somebody else may survive, but that doesn't make you cowardly if you don't, it just makes you human. And also here's a hypothetical question. I assume you're young, late teens-early twenties. What if you were in a situation where a madman had you and an 82 year old man with a cancer that meant he had only a couple years to live and you had to kill him to survive, what would you do then? Who is that hypothetical question for? Because I wouldn't think twice. He'd be a dead old man.
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*Brian*	Jul 3 2009, 02:00 PM Post #41
Homosexual Ogre Posts: 927 Group: Troll Member #4,185 Joined: May 9, 2009 What Browser do you use? Firefox	Mitas Jul 3 2009, 08:38 AM Brian Jul 3 2009, 12:02 AM I also noticed a couple statements about people killing another at the stake of their own life. My opinion on that: Yeah, you called it bub. That's definitely the way of the coward. Despicable. Every life lived should be in the service of leaving this world a better place. Why is it cowardly to want to survive? We're not saying we'd happily do it, but we'd do it because we want to live. Sure it's heroic to give your own life so that somebody else may survive, but that doesn't make you cowardly if you don't, it just makes you human. And also here's a hypothetical question. I assume you're young, late teens-early twenties. What if you were in a situation where a madman had you and an 82 year old man with a cancer that meant he had only a couple years to live and you had to kill him to survive, what would you do then? Then it would be his place to sacrifice, and not mine. Had he not felt that this was to be the solution, I would consider him selfish. I'd at least try to handle the situation myself if I thought there was a -chance- to save him, though. If there wasn't, then yes, I'd have to just hope he'd see eye to eye. I see what you mean. I just think it'd be sort of cowardly to not give your life, or risk it to help someone else in a state of danger. That's just -my- personal opinion. I don't believe in some type of god or anything ridiculous like that. It's just the correct, moral, selfless, heroic thing to do. I know some people would just say "Well, better him/her die than both of us." Yeah, real admirable.
	"They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF


Mitas	Jul 3 2009, 09:42 PM Post #42
Subject To Change Posts: 3,070 Group: Super Moderator Member #2,993 Joined: December 16, 2007 Favourite Anime DBZ What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer Favourite Manga DBZ	The question was for Brian. Although I realise you are both Brians :P I agree that it is the moral and heroic thing to do, but not the correct thing. It's neither the right or wrong thing to give your life for somebody elses. The opinion even changes for those whose life you're saving. They may feel that you're arrogant and pretentious for giving your life to save theirs (I'm not by any means saying that I think that, but it is most likely that somebody feels that way).
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jonnoley	Jul 6 2009, 04:47 PM Post #43
Death Note, NOT TWILIGHT! Posts: 63 Group: Member Member #3,988 Joined: February 16, 2009 Favourite Anime Hellsing What Browser do you use? Opera Favourite Manga Death Note	If a nutter says "Pick who dies, you or this baby?" Who would you pick? I realize this only loosely ties in with the rest of the discussion, but Shrugs. And I'm sorry, but "Insurgent scum?" People essentially defending their countries from the western invaders? I agree, the terrorist organisations are evil, because they kill innocent people, but most people (I imagine, if you are "insurgent scum", and I'm wrong, please correct me,) are simply defending their homes from what they will see as an injust invasion. I don't support either side in the current conflicts, the terrorists, or the nations that induced them to attack innocent people. But anyway, choose. Who dies? You, no doubt some sin in your life, or a perfectly innocent baby? Could anyone really give their life to save a baby? I believe I could, but I may be wrong. Let's all hope none of us ever have to find out.
	Can't be bothered changing the Alex one. Here's the Bioshock one again instead.


Kotetsu	Jul 6 2009, 05:25 PM Post #44
SOUPER SAYIN THREE Posts: 6,108 Group: Admin Adviser Member #48 Joined: December 17, 2004 Favourite Anime Naruto What Browser do you use? Firefox, anything else is for failures. Favourite Manga Naruto Shippuuden, Straight from Japan.	jonnoley Jul 6 2009, 04:47 PM If a nutter says "Pick who dies, you or this baby?" Who would you pick? I realize this only loosely ties in with the rest of the discussion, but Shrugs. And I'm sorry, but "Insurgent scum?" People essentially defending their countries from the western invaders? I agree, the terrorist organisations are evil, because they kill innocent people, but most people (I imagine, if you are "insurgent scum", and I'm wrong, please correct me,) are simply defending their homes from what they will see as an injust invasion. I don't support either side in the current conflicts, the terrorists, or the nations that induced them to attack innocent people. But anyway, choose. Who dies? You, no doubt some sin in your life, or a perfectly innocent baby? Could anyone really give their life to save a baby? I believe I could, but I may be wrong. Let's all hope none of us ever have to find out. Again, the baby would die. It's impossible, and untrue, to place more value on one human over another. If each person is Intrinsically valuable, then neither or both are worth saving. Not one or the other. But since it's me who is making the decision, I'm going to live. I don't feel bad or immoral about this at all. I don't see how anyone can. Maybe I lack feelings or empathy, that's just the way I am. Also using vocabulary to make the baby seem innocent compared to the things I've done in my life, that's falacious. It's very possible the baby could grow up to be a serial killer or worse.
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*Brian*	Jul 6 2009, 07:18 PM Post #45
Homosexual Ogre Posts: 927 Group: Troll Member #4,185 Joined: May 9, 2009 What Browser do you use? Firefox	Mitas Jul 3 2009, 09:42 PM The opinion even changes for those whose life you're saving. They may feel that you're arrogant and pretentious for giving your life to save theirs (I'm not by any means saying that I think that, but it is most likely that somebody feels that way). Arrogant? Wait, ... Arrogant? You're saying, that if somebody gives their life for another, somebody may find that as ARROGANT? What the... I figured it would be the exact opposite. Arrogant people are selfish, to a degree I would say, and that is easily the most selfless sacrifice one could make. I'm not sure if that's what you meant. It just sounded like it.
	"They wanna take your women." - Too inappropriate for DBZF


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