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| Improvements to DBZ/DBGT Your Thoughts? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 28 2009, 08:15 AM (1,073 Views) | |
| Airforcewes | Apr 28 2009, 08:15 AM Post #1 |
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I've been wanting to discuss these issues I've had in my mind about DBZ and DBGT with numerous fans for some years now, and I thought this would be a great place to try. There are several key aspects about these shows that really bothered me as an intelligent yet open minded individual. Mainly the fact that writers/artists did not seem to imply much logic behind certain parts of the story and graphical representation of characters. I won't say much about the original Dragon Ball except that I know it was meant as a kids show but it was entirely to "kiddish". I do not like the fact that some characters are talking animals that live amongst humans which carries over to DBZ...Not sure who came up with that idea but that was a fail. On to DBZ... 1. Raditz's hair was entirely to long. That would not be practical/logical during any type of martial arts 2. Why was Vegeta originaly drawn so short yet then some how grew to normal size later in the series? Why would you make a character almost a midget then realize that it was stupid many episodes later and change it? Again not logical. 3. Tien with three eyes...enough said there and Choutsu...completley un-needed character 4. Progressing further into the story...Gohan and the superhero thing was the absolute worst. I can understand that after Goku died it was just himself and his Mom who wanted him to concentrate on his education which is why his power got weak but a superhero? Again not logical nor entertaining...Great Saiyaman was an un-needed character. 5. I do like the never ending animosity that Vegeta has for Goku because his power always seems to surpass Vegeta's and the fact that they both fought as SS2's was awesome but the fact that Vegeta was never able to go SS3 was disappointing and not logical when you connect DBZ and DBGT. Goku said he was able to obtain it through years of training in Other World but Vegeta was training just as hard on Earth and went through Hell and back during his fights with Majin Boo. After Vegeta died I think his power shoud have shot up enough to transform to SS3, even if he was not as strong as Goku in that form. It would have made a lot of sense to have Goku fight Boo first like he did as SS3, loose and Vegeta overcome with rage about his family dying on Earth and Boo destroying his home and possibly about to kill him that HE transforms in SS3 and fights Boo while Goku makes the Spirit Bomb (which always seems to save the day which I think is lame). This is what I hated most about DBZ was Vegeta never reaching SS3 and cheating his way to SS4. 6. SS2 was an awesome concept during the Cell Games. And Gohan looked just awesome during those episodes. But when Goku and Vegeta transform into SS2 it looks to much like SS1. They should have been drawn with more difinitive features like darker hair, obviously different hair styles and bigger muscles and more lightning. Again not much logic was applied during those episodes regarding appearances. 7. The "Mystic" Gohan or whatever its called...why? Thats cool that Old Kai drasticaly raised his power level but why didn't he transform in SS1 or 2 after that? It would have made more sense to have him turn into a crazy powerful SS2. That really bothered me. On to GT...Besides having a somewhat lame storyline GT bothered me the most by far and their are a few changes that I think would have made the show MUCH better. 1. When Vegeta is fighting he is obviously outclassed as a SS yet he NEVER goes SS2 at all. That is not logical. Minor change there. 2. The SS4 concept I think is one of the coolest things in the DB story line. From the very beginning you become aware that Saiyans can transform in their ape form which increases their power ten fold, their most powerful transformation. Yet that form comes with its obvious flaws such as size, loss of humanity in some cases, apperance, etc...So for Goku and Vegeta being able to harness the power of that transformation yet retain their human looks in very cool in my opinion. But lets be honest who ever drew SS4 must be borderline retarded! I have no artistic experience and I could come up with a much better design for that form. First the fur color...WTF? Why is it that lame shade of red? It should be GOLD like their fur when they are in the ape form. Thats cool how their black hair looks and awesome that their tails are back but why red fur? And their eyes look really stupid, almost liike they have eye shadow on. Just give them regular eyes! Plus the fact that when they turn SS4 they have brand new clothes on is really dumb. Again I don't think much logic was applied when the SS4 form was drawn out. 3. Vegeta's SS4 transformation was awesome but they way it happened was really stupid. Bluntz waves? What the hell are those? Moonlight is just relfected sunlight...Bluntz waves? Seriously...thats about as lame as mediclorines in Star Wars. Once Vegeta knew their was an SS4 he should have just had his tail pulled out like Goku did and threw one of his moon blast balls up into the air old school style and transformed. Bulma and that stupid machine was retarded. Plus after he dropped out of SS4 his tail went away and he said he needed the machine again to transform. That doesn't make sense either...why woudl his tail disappear all the suddent once it already grew back? He shoud be able to transform into SS4 when ever he wanted after that. Again no logic when the story was being written. Anyways I know this was a long post but I just wanted some other real fans' opinions on these things All that stuff really bothered me. Anybody else have similar thoughts? Post up and lets get a good discussion/debate going. Take care. - Wes Edited by Airforcewes, Apr 28 2009, 08:34 AM.
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| * Mitas | Apr 28 2009, 09:34 AM Post #2 |
It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I can only reply to your DBZ stuff as I haven't seen DBGT. 1. You say that Raditz's hair was too long for any form of Martial Arts, but didn't say anything about SSJ3. They're both pretty much the same length :P 2. Goku could only go SSJ3 because he had 7 years to practice it in Otherworld where hsi body could take the strain with ease. On Earth, his body could hardly take the strain at all. Vegeta would have been on Earth the whole time, so the strain on his body would be a lot harder than when Goku first achieved it, plus Goku is stronger, as Vegeta admits. 3. It is hard to tell the difference between SSJ1 and SSJ2. Basically, SSJ2 has spikier and longer hair and electric bolts surrounding them. However, this is just my opinions on your opinions, and I can't tell you what and what not to like :P |
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| Damaged | Apr 28 2009, 10:06 AM Post #3 |
 
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Great stuff you posted, but like you were saying, this is not the best place to discuss that kind of stuff most of the people on this forum don't talk in-depth about the show, which is why i go on better DB Forums, anyways in reply to all of these with my highly advanced 15 year DB Knowledge. (Excluding GT) 1. Disagree with you there dude, what is the key feature of every Saiya-Jin that makes them different, Hair. Look at Vegeta, loo at Goku, Gohan, Raditz....look at Nappa, anyways also basically because it was just for design, he was very creative thinking up all these designs and features for the characters, Akira Toriyama that is. As for the in fights, at one point never was his hair in his way or impacted his fighting style to his disadvantage. 2. Hmmm, as you notice throughout the whole series, Vegeta is usually in his own seperate panel, and we hardly ever see him standing up against people, he is short, and hell he's a Saiyan, there growth rate is really unknown, anyways when you look at the people who he was always standing near, Piccolo, Nappa, Tienshinhan....and all the guys he fought, Cell(10ft), Boo(9ft), Super Boo(11ft), alot of them are really tall in comparison to him. 3. Tienshinhan and Chouzu, are the most love underrated characters, as for as my knowledge goes, they are also the most mysterious main stream characters in the show. They're well designed. 4. Most of which was filler (Funimation sucks). 5. One, GT sucks, Two now Vegeta was never meant to be a character after the Freeza Saga, "He only really stayed in because of the fans" - Akira Toriyama, So to that, i don't think that Akira would have like to use him as the main character and take over Goku's role, as far as im concerned, Akira Toriyama wasn't really a fan of Vegeta. 6. They were dude, but because of their hairstyles, you couldn't really do alot, or they'll look weird, we only saw Gohan in calm Saiya-Jin mode, which is just his normal hair, when he turned Super Saiyan 2, it was at that point he look different alot. 7. Because he didn't need to really, it wouldn't have done much to his abilities, it unlocks all his hidden power, which would be stronger. |
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| Fused | Apr 28 2009, 11:19 AM Post #4 |
 
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I agree with a lot of those things but I actually hate SSJ3 and I feel it was unncessary. But Gohan and everything he does, especially the Great Saiyaman persona are over 9000% awesome, I can't believe so many people hate it. |
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| Airforcewes | Apr 28 2009, 11:21 AM Post #5 |
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Yeah about Nappa I think he should have had some hair atleast. But not speaking from the show's standpoint more of a "realistic" view, nobody who fights for a living would grow their hair that long. Plus I think it looked stupid anyways. And yeah SS3 hair is kind of crazy long as well. But whatever... You can really tell a difference in Vegeta's height when he fights Goku on Earth and then as the series continues he progressively gets taller. Especially during Boo saga he is almost the same height as goku and his torso/legs/arms are longer. The "unknown" growth rate has nothing to do with it either. If it did they would have explained it. Shows usually just don't leave stuff for you to "assume" like that. Truth is different people were probably the artits and just made him taller and taller but the fact that he was created so short was stupid in the 1st place. I'm only comparing his size to Goku though, none of the other tall villans. I didn't know that about Vegeta thats interesting though. Thats cool how Toriyama was able to create a story that kept Vegeta as a major character. Not saying he should have taken over Goku's role but he was dead when he was fighting Boo I still think he should have turned SS3. That would have seemed to make sense to me instead of having Goku being an entire level above him. Goku's hair as SS2 could have been made to look almost just like Gohan's which I think would have been the way to go. Vegeta on the other hand could have had much more individual spikes which some shots it was and others it was hard to tell. I say that because in SS form he had a small number of large clumped together spikes and in SS2 it was a larger number of more defined spikes which was cool, I wish they would have drawn that more consisten though from scene to scene. Also some larger muscles or something would have made it easier to distinguish from level 1 and 2. I understand the concept behind ultimate Gohan. He basicly was able to power up to his max super saiyan power without actually turning his hair blonde. I think it would have made more sense to just make him super strong SS2 so he didn't have to get rid of the awesome SS2 look. Any comments on GT? |
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| Fused | Apr 28 2009, 11:25 AM Post #6 |
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Haven't seen GT so I can't comment on much of it. |
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| DbzNerd | Apr 28 2009, 11:34 AM Post #7 |
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DBZ 1. Raditz's story telling make his hair rock. Raditz "3 years ago Planet Vegeta was destroyed by an asteroid"  that phase still gets 2 me.2. Vegeta height changed because of the art. Akira definitely wanted a newer art design compare 2 his old DB days. 3. Agree Tien, Chaotzu, and I might add Yamacha, Roshi should of stayed dead. 4. I fine the Great Saiyanman quite good though and I rlly want Akira 2 make a manga based on it. Would b entertaining. 5. I rather have Goku nvr ascending 2 the SSJ3 than Vegeta having it. 6. Agree with this 1. If Gohan SSJ hair matches his normal hair style then y doesn't Goku's matches his instead of the pointy one. But then again Goku would look like a total fag with it. 7. I like Mystic Gohan's hair as I nvr liked Akira's idea of changing their hair blonde. Look's like a asian dude wanting 2 b an American wanabe or something like that (no offense though). DBGT 1. Any SSJ2 or above is nvr given electric aura so it might b an error or something but I agree Toei should of done a better job making the effects instead of leaving it b. 2. SSJ4 definitely has no logic behind it and shouldn't even b created in the first place. Definitely the most retarded sh8t created by Toei so far outside of Bio Brolly. 3. I feel u in this 1.
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| Airforcewes | Apr 28 2009, 12:13 PM Post #8 |
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Just watched the DBZ 40th anniversary special that came out in 2008. Lame fighting but it was surprisingly funny. DBZNerd, I'm not sure why Raditz said Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor unless it was all a galactic coverup haha. He could have just said an intergalactic warlord destroyed it. I thought that was the reason why Vegeta's height was changed. To me it would have made more sense to draw him like other humanoids in the show that and not like a midget. I never thought about completly erasing SS3...thats interesting. I guess it really isn't a needed form. They could have just progressed higher as level 2 which would have kept Vegeta and Goku at the same level. I like that idea a lot. Plus I think SS3 also looks kind of stupid. Gohan's hair doesn't stay 100% the same when he transforms, the front flips up some. During the episode where Goku shows Boo the different forms of a SS there is one scene when he is SS2 that he's drawn how it should be with one long blonde bang and the rest is all high spikes with definition all slicked back. It looks pimp, he should have always been drawn like that. About GT I wouldn't go as far to say that SS4 should have never been created because I think it is a great concept. Almost like Goku and Vegeta achieve the pinnacle of their races' genetics. But the way they look is just ridiculous. I'll never forget when I was in high school and I saw a picture of SS4 Goku for the 1st time hahaha Kodak moment. I was VERY disappointed. This thread is turning out well. Lets keep is rollin'. |
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| DbzNerd | Apr 28 2009, 12:44 PM Post #9 |
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That's y his statement makes his hair rock  .Let me rephase that part. Vegeta's overall height didn't change at all and stayed the same but the new art just made him look taller. Like how other character seems 2 b much taller like Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, and let's not 4 get the other midget Krillen. Yea I agree with the idea of a more complex level or a mastery of the SSJ2 level other than the eyebrowless SSJ3. Yea when he go Mystic his hair resemble his SSJ2 form but in the color black. Toei's creation of the false SSJ is what I wanted Akira 2 do when characters go SSJ, keep the black hair but with the intense golden aura. I have 2 give Toei credit 4 that  .I rlly hated the SSJ4 and it's designl. I mean how did a golden monkey end up with red fur, black hair (liked the black hair though), and a new set of pants  . Totally awful  .
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| Temphis | Apr 28 2009, 02:32 PM Post #10 |
Rampaging Explosion of Euphoric Glory!
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I used to be very critical of the dragon ball series, but than I did some research on Akira and why he made it the way he did, and it all makes sense. while, yes, the DBZ series could have been much improved, Akira wanted to do more of a comedy, and serious action stuff isn't really his thing, plus he was completely changing a fighting comedy series (DB) into a more serious fighting series (DBZ) and was on a strict deadline schedual. I would have hated to be forced to produce a new episode once a week. even once a month is kinda pushy. he didn't have time to think about it much. also, I've found one reason a lot of his stuff looks the same, is because he hardly ever uses refrences when drawing, so he ends up giving everything the same style. I don't think thats a good thing, but it's worked for him, so even if some of his stuff looks like it's allready been done, or is just a clone character or whatever, people still like it, strange as that is. well, I feel if your going to get nitty gritty about what should have been different, than help me make DBMU, since it's pretty much supposed to be a perfected/glorified version of Dragon Ball, it will actually provide solutions to every single point you just made. well anyway, thats my two cents. |
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| Airforcewes | Apr 28 2009, 03:21 PM Post #11 |
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What is DBMU? Your own version online episodes of DB or something? That would be awesome. So the deadline for DBZ was 1 episode a week?!?! That is total BS. Thats probably a huge contributor to the problem right there! How can you write a quality story in a week and then put it into graphical representation? I never knew that. I would imagine you would need atleast 3 weeks to a month to make an episode.
Edited by Airforcewes, Apr 28 2009, 03:28 PM.
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| selfdestruction | Apr 29 2009, 02:45 PM Post #12 |
hellcat and the prowl
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(about yamcha tien and others u said): it makes dbz more true  i mean there are different people in the world so ... they're all ok and i dont know why people hate satan he's cool 
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| DbzNerd | Apr 29 2009, 09:38 PM Post #13 |
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I liked Satan 2 . But Tien, Yamacha, Chaotzu, Roshi should of stayed dead because they r alrdy out shadow by the saiyans. I would of kicked out Krillen 2 but he's just 2 cool.
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| Trickster | May 4 2009, 09:26 AM Post #14 |
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Ninja
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I agree, just about all the human z fighters were worthless from the start. once goku went ssj, the only ones that could make any difference was the saiyans and piccolo. But Krillan was cool for some reason. He always stayed next to them puting himself out there. |
 A true worrior becomes a legend A true saiyan becomes a GOD | |
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| * Mitas | May 4 2009, 10:04 AM Post #15 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I don't agree that the human Z Fighters i.e Krillin, Tien and Yamcha, and to an extent Piccolo, were worthless. I think that they could have been good characters had Akira focused a little more on them, but they were just over-shadowed. I wouldn't have enjoyed the series half as much had these characters been taken out. |
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