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Theory about Saiyan tails?
Topic Started: Mar 3 2009, 04:54 PM (3,868 Views)
SpongeCake
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EDIT: The 2nd theory Biology genotypes and explination(s) might not be 100% correct. It's been over a year since I took Biology in college and lets be honest, I've forgotten a lot about it and a lot about hwo exactly to do it :lol: .

While trying to answer someone's question in another topic, the subject of Saiyan tails popped in my head. Throughout Dragonball Z we witness the Oozuru transformation quite a few times from both Vegeta and Gohan. Now throwing out the possibility of what's cannon/non-cannon, here are the number of times they've transformed throughout DBZ (correct me if wrong):

Vegeta
#1 - Fighting Goku. Yajarobi (sp?) cuts his tail off.

Gohan
#1 - While training with Piccolo, Gohan notices the full moon. Piccolo blows the moon up and then pops off Gohan's tail.
#2 - Again while training with Piccolo. This is triggered because Goku's old ship is showing a hologram of the moon, which triggers Gohan. If not mistaken Piccolo blows up the ship and once again removes the tail.
#3 - While fighting Vegeta, Gohan transforms. I don't remember EXACTLY what happened to his tail to make him untransform. I believe Vegeta might have removed it? Idk.

Here's where my question comes in. What in the heck happened to their tails?? :o_O: . From what we know, Vegeta had never had his tail removed. So in theory it should have grown back as Gohan's did. Gohan's tail managed to grow back twice.. so why not grow back a 3rd time? I've got a theory but I have no idea if it's correct or just.. a theory:

Theory
 
Saiyan tails are directly linked with the Saiyan's body. In such a way whereas when a Saiyan is growing from childhood to adulthood, his tail is also in a "growing" state although it doesn't really appear to grow at all. But this, I mean of course that as long as a Saiyan is still growing up his tail is also able to grow back. This would explain why Gohan's tail continued to grow back (because he was a child still growing) and Vegeta's tail did not grow back at all (because he was already a full grown adult).


The problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain why Gohan's tail doesn't grow back for a 3rd time. Now.. another thing that bothers me about tails throughout DBZ is the fact that Gohan had a tail (1/2 Saiyan), but nither Goten or Trunks had tails even though they too were half Saiyan. I also came up with a theory for that:

Theory #2
 
Dealing with Biology and the maths of inheretince, lets say that a full blooded Saiyan both male and female holds the genotype, for inhereiting a tail, TT. Using a Punnett Square (although not needed) obviously means that every offspring of 2 full blooded Saiyans will have a tail no matter what. Now if a Saiyan has sex with a non-Saiyan then the other species obviously does not have the tail trait. But for the sake of calculating something, lets just theoretically say that all other non-Saiyan species have the genotype tt. IF you then use a Punnett square using the genotypes TT and tt, then you figure that 100% of your offsrping will be Tt (homozygous dominant).


But that theory can't be correct. Using those theoretical genotypes WOULD confirm the fact that no matter what, all full blooded Saiyans will be born with a tail. But the theory is then shot to sh*t when using the tt genotype because that means that all 1/2 Saiyans WOULD have a tail, but would also hold the possibility of giving their recessive gene to their offspring. So all in all there is no logical explination to why Gohan has a tail but Goten and Trunks do not. Your thoughts?
Edited by SpongeCake, Mar 3 2009, 04:54 PM.
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Mirage Sabrehaven
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Most Beautiful Saiyan

Heh this can easily be explained as the series goes on, please let me elaborate.

We all know ( most of us anyhow ) that Funimation chopped up DBZ to make the show suitable for day time TV or in other words PG. In Japan the whoe had plenty of nudity, not to mention blunt explanations for what was going on. I've an uncle who lives in Tokyo and when I was younger and there for the summer with his twin brats I discovered DB and DBZ long before it came to the english.

Goten's conception in the DBZ storyline at times doesn't make much sense considering the 9 months between conception and birth Goku was dead >_> In japan there is a "hidden" episode that claims goku was allowed to come to see Chichi upon request how ever there are dozens who say she became so lonely she turned to gohan and as sick as it sounds, it's not uncommon in the japanese culture for this to happen. How ever there is no evidence to support this other then the fact that the time line for his birth doesn't add up.

As for Trunks, if you notice there is a massive gap between talking to future trunks and then suddenly he's 8 months old with Bulma and Vegeta is utterly annoyed by his very existence. In japan there were a good 20 episodes in ther to explain what happened. At this stage Bulma was running out of time to have children, she was nearly 40 years old. In japan they explained that she in fact used hair from a brush that Vegeta was using to make herself a test tube baby in the lab with the help of dr. briefs. Why he had no tail could be explained through when messing with trunks on a DNA level she might have altered it to prevent a tail having remembered how Goku was in the past how ever it's illogical.

Considering the Trunks character was originally sketched out way back in DB to be a younger brother of Bulma, upon needing to extend DBZ and Akira Toriyama wanting to end DBZ right after the namek saga, he took a bunch of old scrapped characters and threw them into the mix with poorly thought out plots.

This is were people get confused in GT, bulma was too old to have bra, which is why in the oh so crapolisous GT in japan Bra was actually a 100% clone of Bulma that was done by Bulma herself and Dr. Briefs. Because she aged like a normal person she was automatically adopted as a daughter and by this point the writers of GT had pussed up Vegeta I'm sure Akira Toriyama was getting sick just from seeing what they had done to his original characters.

The best way to explain the tail thing, as DBZ progressed from the saiyan saga into the namek saga they had all new artists constantly coming in. It's what I would call lazy in the art world. they were always hiring and firing artists on the show that eventually drawing in tails just became forgotten about, which is why it's not talked about even in the later episodes.
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Temphis
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wow, thats kinda sad. very interesting stuff though, I'll have to keep this all in mind for DBMT.
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Damaged
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Hmmmm a bit dodgy, considering i was thinking about this kind of stuff along time ago.
- I don't know how to paint black skies blue.
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SpongeCake
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Mirage Sabrehaven - I had no idea of any of that information! I even looked through a couple of websites I googles about the subject and never came across that info. I knew right off the bat that the tail situation was all just infamous DBZ plot holes and/or dodgey art, but I figured I would turn to the community for any interesting theories.

Thanks for the actual "answer" though :lol: .
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Mirage Sabrehaven
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you'd need to just watch the old uncut japanese versions, there is even old japanese mangas that mention it here and there as well
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Larxene
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Quote:
 
So all in all there is no logical explination to why Gohan has a tail but Goten and Trunks do not. Your thoughts?
Hm...

Explanation:

1) It's a cartoon/fantasy. Dinosaurs and hover cars exist in the same time period. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic/logical.

2) Toriyama didn't do his biology homework. :rofl:

You brought up some good points and theories though. Toriyama probably just didn't look too deeply into the matter since his series is of the fantasy genre(and he's often a bit lazy when it comes to his manga). He doesn't even use a reference for muscular proportion.

I can't really think of any other explination other than "it's possible in the ficitional universe that Toriyama created."

Mirage Sabrehaven
Mar 3 2009, 05:21 PM
As for Trunks, if you notice there is a massive gap between talking to future trunks and then suddenly he's 8 months old with Bulma and Vegeta is utterly annoyed by his very existence.


There is a massive gap in the manga too, it's a time-skip(they trained for 1 year).

Vegeta's reaction is never revealed. He doesn't even mention his son until Piccolo reveals F. Trunks' name and even then, he's just surprised. He ignores him/brushes him off until they're forced to train in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for a year together.

Bulma has no qualms about her son either. In fact, she's rather cheerful and laid back about it.

Quote:
 
In japan there were a good 20 episodes in ther to explain what happened. At this stage Bulma was running out of time to have children, she was nearly 40 years old. In japan they explained that she in fact used hair from a brush that Vegeta was using to make herself a test tube baby in the lab with the help of dr. briefs. Why he had no tail could be explained through when messing with trunks on a DNA level she might have altered it to prevent a tail having remembered how Goku was in the past how ever it's illogical.


Lol no.

Bulma(733 AD) was 33 years old by the time Trunks(766 AD) was born. Future Trunks explains that Yamcha was "non-committal"("unfaithful" in some translations) and she "saw that Vegeta was lonely." (Volume 28, Chapter 335). There is no further explanation for it. In the anime version, there were 1-2 filler episodes(non-canon) that gave us a glimpe of Bulma taking care of Vegeta after being injured from intense training(here's a link) But that's it.

Quote:
 
Considering the Trunks character was originally sketched out way back in DB to be a younger brother of Bulma, upon needing to extend DBZ and Akira Toriyama wanting to end DBZ right after the namek saga, he took a bunch of old scrapped characters and threw them into the mix with poorly thought out plots.


Evidence Plz?

Quote:
 
This is were people get confused in GT, bulma was too old to have bra, which is why in the oh so crapolisous GT in japan Bra was actually a 100% clone of Bulma that was done by Bulma herself and Dr. Briefs. Because she aged like a normal person she was automatically adopted as a daughter and by this point the writers of GT had pussed up Vegeta I'm sure Akira Toriyama was getting sick just from seeing what they had done to his original characters.


That is no such explanation in GT(nor in the Perfect Files).

I've already explained this, but here's evidence that Bra is 1/2 Saiyajin(and Vegeta's daughter):

Daizenshuu 2~ Story Guide:

Human Drama

"Vol. 42 / Chp. 518
With Buu's terror gone, she(Bulma) once again heads for a peaceful life. She even has a second child with Vegeta, Bra."


She is also listed as a human with saiyajin blood in the Racial Groups section of Daizenshuu 4: World Guide along with Trunks, Gohan, Pan, and Goten:

Posted Image

Source:

http://www.kanzentai.com/

Sorry to nickpick so much, but where did you get all of this crazy information? If you actually "saw it yourself" in the anime/manga, which episode/chapter?(Here's a list of episodes(original Japanese numbers and titles on on the left))

If someone told you this, sorry to say, but they're making it up.
Edited by Larxene, Mar 11 2009, 06:48 AM.
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fenk town
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Mirage Sabrehaven
Mar 3 2009, 05:21 PM
Heh this can easily be explained as the series goes on, please let me elaborate.

We all know ( most of us anyhow ) that Funimation chopped up DBZ to make the show suitable for day time TV or in other words PG. In Japan the whoe had plenty of nudity, not to mention blunt explanations for what was going on. I've an uncle who lives in Tokyo and when I was younger and there for the summer with his twin brats I discovered DB and DBZ long before it came to the english.

Goten's conception in the DBZ storyline at times doesn't make much sense considering the 9 months between conception and birth Goku was dead >_> In japan there is a "hidden" episode that claims goku was allowed to come to see Chichi upon request how ever there are dozens who say she became so lonely she turned to gohan and as sick as it sounds, it's not uncommon in the japanese culture for this to happen. How ever there is no evidence to support this other then the fact that the time line for his birth doesn't add up.

As for Trunks, if you notice there is a massive gap between talking to future trunks and then suddenly he's 8 months old with Bulma and Vegeta is utterly annoyed by his very existence. In japan there were a good 20 episodes in ther to explain what happened. At this stage Bulma was running out of time to have children, she was nearly 40 years old. In japan they explained that she in fact used hair from a brush that Vegeta was using to make herself a test tube baby in the lab with the help of dr. briefs. Why he had no tail could be explained through when messing with trunks on a DNA level she might have altered it to prevent a tail having remembered how Goku was in the past how ever it's illogical.

Considering the Trunks character was originally sketched out way back in DB to be a younger brother of Bulma, upon needing to extend DBZ and Akira Toriyama wanting to end DBZ right after the namek saga, he took a bunch of old scrapped characters and threw them into the mix with poorly thought out plots.

This is were people get confused in GT, bulma was too old to have bra, which is why in the oh so crapolisous GT in japan Bra was actually a 100% clone of Bulma that was done by Bulma herself and Dr. Briefs. Because she aged like a normal person she was automatically adopted as a daughter and by this point the writers of GT had pussed up Vegeta I'm sure Akira Toriyama was getting sick just from seeing what they had done to his original characters.

The best way to explain the tail thing, as DBZ progressed from the saiyan saga into the namek saga they had all new artists constantly coming in. It's what I would call lazy in the art world. they were always hiring and firing artists on the show that eventually drawing in tails just became forgotten about, which is why it's not talked about even in the later episodes.
u are making a joke right that is honestly the biggest crap i have ever heard trunks and bra where born the normal way through sex and chichi and gohan certainly didnt conceive goten but if you wer making a joke that is pretty funny albeit disturbing
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