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| Goku... Super Saiyan? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2009, 07:39 PM (1,254 Views) | |
| SpongeCake | Feb 22 2009, 07:39 PM Post #1 |
 
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WARNING: It's been years since I've watched & discussed Dragonball/Z faithfully, so not all of my post(s) will be 100% correct. But that's why I'm here! To learn and discuss. I've never read the manga, so I do not know what all is cannon and what is filler. Consider this a warning for this post and any others I make throughout my time spent on these forums. First off, let me start by saying hello! As you can see I'm very new to the forums *points to post count* but don't worry, I'm not new to DB/Z based discussion forums  . I first heard of Dragonball Z waaay back in 1999 when I was only in the 4th grade. I live in the U.S. and Cartoon Network had started a new block of anime called Toonami, on which Dragonball Z was shown. Now on with the topic!----- I'm sure that someone has already thought of the discussion before, but just to be sure, I'll go ahead and ask: what's the deal with the first explination of a Super Saiyan? During the episode (http://dbz-zone.org/dragonballz_eps/dbz053.php) Vegeta begins talking to himself explaining about how he believes Goku has become a Super Saiyan. During this "flashback", Vegeta goes on to say "the last Super Saiyan could only maintain his status in the transformed state". Call me crazy, but the transformed state Vegeta seems to be referring to looks an AWEFUL LOT like the Oozuru form. Why is this?? Now as I said in my warning message at the beginning of the topic, I am no Dragonball geneius. I've never read any of the manga, and it's been years since I've discussed Dragonball/Z heavily so what little knowledge I had about cannon and non-cannon is all but gone. I also know that the anime (and even parts of the manag I assume) are chocked full of plot holes and screwed up information. But why something like this? If they knew that Goku and the others would become Super Saiyans later in the show, then they probably knew what they looked like. Why then, did they decide to make Vegeta's "flashback" Super Saiyan appear in the ape form? Discuss. |
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| * Itagaki Manabu | Feb 22 2009, 07:49 PM Post #2 |
 
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Vegeta said he has managed to harness his power, and he also said the other super saiyan was too primitive too. |
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| SpongeCake | Feb 22 2009, 08:25 PM Post #3 |
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So what you're saying is this: If you have the power to become a super saiyan, but dont know how to control it, you transform into the ape form (golden ape form?). I'm probably not understanding correctly, but that just doesn't make sense to me. Nobody had seen/heard of a Super Saiyan for 3,000 years and suddenly Goku (and everyone else who eventually obtains the transformation) knows how to control the power? I dont see what the "last super saiyan" being too primitive has anything to do with it in my opinion. |
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| * Itagaki Manabu | Feb 22 2009, 08:31 PM Post #4 |
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Being too primitive he proberbly couldnt control it or didnt know how. You could say that the saiyans e.g. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan etc where more evolved so they were able to control it. I meen it was 3000 ago. Or Goku, vegeta and others were just more powerful and able to control it. |
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| * Psyam | Feb 22 2009, 10:38 PM Post #5 |
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I took it to mean that the old Super Saiyan could only access his Super Saiyan powers while in his Oozaru form, and outside of it he wouldn't be able to turn Super Saiyan. Keep in mind that when Goku first became a Super Saiyan, King Kai said that "Goku has never experienced this kind of power before, he's struggling to keep hold of who he is", the initial jolt into the SSJ state is a huge power boost that people can lose their sanity over. Now imagine being Oozaru, a state that precious few Saiyans could completely control, at 10x your normal power, and then having SSJ (which could be up to 50x normal power) added on to that. The Saiyan of legend probably lost his marbles when he was jumped up to what could possibly be 500 times his normal power in Oozaru form, which most Saiyans lose their sense in anyway. The Saiyan could probably only access the SSJ power in his Oozaru form as his normal form was too weak. He likely wasn't ready for it so lost control. Goku was the first (that we know about) Saiyan to achieve SSJ status outside of Oozaru form, as he was pretty much the first Saiyan to not have a tail. It would of been inaccurate to show him in normal form as a SSJ, and at the time we didn't know what Super Saiyans looked like. The Saiyan of legend could not achieve SSJ power outside of Oozaru form, so they showed him in his Oozaru form. |
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| SpongeCake | Feb 22 2009, 11:31 PM Post #6 |
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That's why I love these types of forums  . You both managed to answer my question/discussion quite precisly (sp?). The reason I didn't initially put much thought into the primitive remark was because you never really know how advanced (or lack there of) a planet can be in the Dragonball world. My main thought was "Saiyans are Sayians... who cares if its 3,000 years prior, the present, or 3,000 later. They'll all be mostly the same as far as genetics go so why should someone in Goku and Vegeta's time be able to handle Super Saiyan when they couldn't do it 3,000 years ago."I hate to veer off topic, but I can't say I fully agree with Oozuru being a 10x power multiplyer. I know Vegeta says it in his first fight with Goku but I believe it was just a huge exageration on his part. Think about it. Vegeta and Goku were pretty evenly matched. When Vegeta transformed into his Oozuru form, he would have been 10 times stronger than Goku. Now compare this to later in the series. I'll use Goku vs. Captain Ginyu for example. Captain Ginyu was about to crap a brick because Goku's power level was 60,000 more than his. Situations like that happen all the time throughout DBZ. Which brings me back to my original point: If someone can be so easily beaten simply by having a powerlevel that's only... 25-50% lower than the person they're fighting, then if the 10x multiplier rule really did apply to the Oozuru form wouldn't that pretty much mean death in only 1 hit (regardless of how little power they try to use)? EDIT: Now I know most all of you are probably going to say "Vegeta being Vegeta was just toying with Goku after he transformed. Tried to torture him", etc etc. I know that's probably what he was doing. And to be honest, that's probably the explination. But I still don't see how Oozuru can be a 10x multiplier. Seems too far fetched to me  . Unless, of course, there's actual CONFIRMATION (other than the anime) that Oozuru really is 10x... in which case I'll just tuck my tail between my legs and go lay in the corner  .
Edited by SpongeCake, Feb 22 2009, 11:35 PM.
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| BattleMetal | Feb 22 2009, 11:39 PM Post #7 |
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This segment that you are talking about SpongeCake is an anime filler, in the manga this is not mentioned but yeah i would agree with the other guys. Its a primitive saiyan who gained increduble unexpected power and went berserk before self-destructing. Oh the reason i think that the show decided to show this ancestor Super Saiyan in an Oozaru form is simply to add to the mystery of what it actually looked like. Giving enough to keep you hooked, without giving us the whole picture till the final great moment. Heres another question that this sparks up: Lets just say that this did happen, that this saiyan is primitive, then why wasnt he with other saiyans? I mean if he self-destructed with enough power to vaporise an entire planet surely he would be on his home world? If he isnt then why and how how did he travel through space, leaving his homeworld to take place in some sort of major battle that we know nothing about? How have the saiyans survived this legendary warrior that is born every 1000-3000 thousand years with so much power? |
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8040430/1/ Link to my DBZ fan-fic tale: Saiyans, Frieza, the Ginyu Force and other alien races and beings all chucked into the soup-pot for all out action and glory! http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8129945/1/#new Link to a DBZ inspired story/ battle scenario that i did when i was 16 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8071554/1/#new Link to the Marvel/DC tale of the super-powered hereos and villians of both verses. Biggest heavy-hitters square off in an almight-free-for-all brawl! | |
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| SpongeCake | Feb 22 2009, 11:56 PM Post #8 |
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Very good questions! All of which I'd like to give my crummy 2 cents on :#1 - He probably wasn't with other Saiyans because he wasn't on the home planet. This is mostly implied because it DOES show the planet blowing up the he was on. And if he blew up the planet, then I suppose the creators of the anime figured the audience would automatically know it wasn't planet Vegeta. #2 - Why he isn't on his home world... who knows. Same goes with the question regarding space ships. Most of the stuff like this the creators didn't think people who care about so they never made it a priority to explain any of it. #3 - Is it stated that there is a new Super Saiyan every 3,000 years? I know Vegeta mentions that the last Super Saiyan was 3,000 years ago but I didn't think that anywhere it said there was one born EVERY 3,000 years. Eh, either way I know where you were going with the question... which makes you wonder. If there WERE other Super Saiyans in the past, did they also destory themselves? Or perhaps there was one somewhere along the way who managed to control his power. |
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| BattleMetal | Feb 23 2009, 12:20 AM Post #9 |
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I had this idea, my own theory so dont chew me out on this one just read it open minded. i think that lets just say that there have been Super Saiyans born every so often (I cant remeber if it is EVERY 1000-3000 years or just whenever but you get the idea) then surely not all of them destroyed themselves as you have mentioned SpongeCake. i think some Super Saiyans of the past would have just attained Super Saiyan power defeated there menace of their timeline that was threatening them and then simply died of old age. Others would have gone berserk, insane with power, needing that constant challenge to test them, to push them over the edge, when the challenge wasnt being met they would destroy everything and themselves. Not out of evil but simply because they lost their minds, like a spark going off in forest that creates a supernova. This leads me to my point, remember when Trunks came back in time and said Goku would attain a mysterious disease that attacked the heart (he didnt say those exact words but you know what i mean) and kill the infected. Well i thought what if this was natures own defense mechanism, if a saiyan (ie Goku) attains Super Saiyan power then he needs constant combat at his level, if this is not met, instead of the saiyan warrior going insane and destroy everthing in sight, nature steps in. This would only affect the original Super Saiyan, the disease was infectious so maybe this was to ensure that no other Super Saiyans would risk treading the same path. However if a saiyan can defeat this disease then that is it he wont have to endure again. there is nothing to substantiate this, jusy an idea that i had when thinking about these events. Peace.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8040430/1/ Link to my DBZ fan-fic tale: Saiyans, Frieza, the Ginyu Force and other alien races and beings all chucked into the soup-pot for all out action and glory! http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8129945/1/#new Link to a DBZ inspired story/ battle scenario that i did when i was 16 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8071554/1/#new Link to the Marvel/DC tale of the super-powered hereos and villians of both verses. Biggest heavy-hitters square off in an almight-free-for-all brawl! | |
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| SpongeCake | Feb 23 2009, 05:12 AM Post #10 |
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Neat read I must admit :P . Only thing I noticed about it is if it pretained to full blooded Super Saiyans, then that means Vegeta would have contracted the virus also. Other than that I think it's a fun idea haha. |
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| BattleMetal | Feb 23 2009, 06:43 PM Post #11 |
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Ok heres the reason why Vegeta,Trunks and Gohan wouldnt have got this disease. They where in constant training (possibly half-saiyans are unnaffected by this disease, maybe they skipped this as past of their evolution just an idea!!) and they had surpassed the danger level of acquiring the disease, they where constantly being tested. Thier powers where pushed to the limits during the android saga. Once their power levels amassed beyond a certain stage they became immune to the disease. I guess it would be like a ticking time bomb, as long as you defuse the right wires in the time limit you dont blow up  Goku was a Super Saiyan for three years before Vegeta and co., therefore he should have beaten the Super Saiyan wall (ie Ascended Super Saiyan) and thus because he wasnt challenged during that time his body reacted. Of course storyline wise this wouldnt have worked, obviously Toriyam had to create obstacles and not make things so easy otherwise the sagas would have stopped at the Android point Really hard to create challenges for beings that can fly, are super strong/ fast/ durable and have the power to destroy solar systems in the blink of an eye with a flick of a wrist and few fancy words.Peace.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8040430/1/ Link to my DBZ fan-fic tale: Saiyans, Frieza, the Ginyu Force and other alien races and beings all chucked into the soup-pot for all out action and glory! http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8129945/1/#new Link to a DBZ inspired story/ battle scenario that i did when i was 16 http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8071554/1/#new Link to the Marvel/DC tale of the super-powered hereos and villians of both verses. Biggest heavy-hitters square off in an almight-free-for-all brawl! | |
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| Temphis | Feb 24 2009, 05:05 PM Post #12 |
Rampaging Explosion of Euphoric Glory!
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I'm tempted to use that idea in DBMT now you guys should have more conversations like this in the DBMT section. INGENIOUS!!!! |
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