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Current piccolo vs janemba; Who takes this fight?
Topic Started: Jul 11 2018, 09:01 AM (869 Views)
StrenuousSpider
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PF18
Jul 12 2018, 04:41 PM
Quote:
 
Dose not matter if they were not used they would still surpass god by a good amount. So those statements are false plain and simple.


This just doesn't make any sense. Goku used his base and then went SSB and King Kai/the narrator commented that he had surpassed SSG. Therefore, he did not surpass SSG in his base form. This has nothing to do with his other forms in this context.

Quote:
 
And krillian and gohans statements still hold some comparison when they did not say these things about ssj before.


The fact that they didn't use that specific wording doesn't mean anything. They just made generic comments about Goku being strong and about being scared. Nothing whatsoever that indicates his base had surpassed his previous SSJ self.

Quote:
 
Its vague but the statement indicates that apparently this fight (Goku vs Frieza) is more intense than the one with Goku vs Beerus.


Kururin just commented on being more scared than when Goku fought Beerus. There's no comparison of power being made he is just acknowledging that the guy who killed him before is here and obviously he will be more scared of someone who had already killed him than Beerus.

Quote:
 
Well his base in RoF could simply always equal Super Saiyan God (BoG) Goku's strength. It doesn't necessarily mean he has to surpass God in base.


That wouldn't make any sense for him to be equal to SSG since this would indicate that either:

1. Goku didn't gain any strength from training with Whis for 6 months.
2. Goku's supposed "Saiyan Beyond God" is a weaker form than "Super Saiyan God." Considering the name of the form this wouldn't make any sense.

The whole Saiyan Beyond God thing was retconned by DBS. It was movies-only. They can't use God Ki in base anymore and their base is clearly weaker than Super Saiyan God was.
Ok he cam still be equal in base and the statement would still be true.
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PF18
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Now if he's fighting on a different level of speed this implies his base is as fast (and stronger) as Super Saiyan God (BoG) Goku's level.


see the problem is that he wasn't on a different level of speed. I think you may be referring to a dub mistake or the movie or something because I don't believe that was in the DBS anime.

Quote:
 
Also, the line where Goku is said to have surpassed Super Saiyan God with Blue could simply mean that he's found a transformation pass Super Saiyan God. Similarly like how Gohan transcended the Mastered Super Saiyan form with Super Saiyan 2, even though he ascended beyond Mastered Super Saiyan they're are forced power up of that form which are too ascended beyond a mere Super Saiyan.


They aren't mutually exclusive. It is both. It is both a transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God and the first time that he had surpassed Super Saiyan God. Had he surpassed Super Saiyan God earlier than that, then Gohan or Krillin would have commented on it clarifying it.

Essentially the "god boost" brought his SSJ to be SSG level not his base form. Otherwise, everybody would be SSG level and it would contradict episodes 13/14 and the statements made by the narrator and King Kai. Here's the numbers I use to describe it personally:

Goku(pre-ritual)
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSG: 8,000,000
Goku(post-ritual)
Base: 160,000
SSJ: 8,000,000
SSJ2: 16,000,000
SSJ3: 64,000,000
SSG: 128,000,000
SSB(hypothetical): 64,000,000,000

I explain the evidence we have that when Goku achieved the form without the ritual the multiplier went down here:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
Ok he cam still be equal in base and the statement would still be true.


Yes, but like I said, if his "Saiyan Beyond God" was the same strength that would mean that either that form is weaker than Super Saiyan God and yields a smaller boost or he didn't gain any power from training with Whis for 6 months. He can't possibly stay equal in this form, he would have to be far stronger or weaker. And the following statements show that he is weaker.
Edited by PF18, Yesterday, 8:55 PM.
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StrenuousSpider
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PF18
Jul 12 2018, 08:53 PM
Quote:
 
Now if he's fighting on a different level of speed this implies his base is as fast (and stronger) as Super Saiyan God (BoG) Goku's level.


see the problem is that he wasn't on a different level of speed. I think you may be referring to a dub mistake or the movie or something because I don't believe that was in the DBS anime.

Quote:
 
Also, the line where Goku is said to have surpassed Super Saiyan God with Blue could simply mean that he's found a transformation pass Super Saiyan God. Similarly like how Gohan transcended the Mastered Super Saiyan form with Super Saiyan 2, even though he ascended beyond Mastered Super Saiyan they're are forced power up of that form which are too ascended beyond a mere Super Saiyan.


They aren't mutually exclusive. It is both. It is both a transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God and the first time that he had surpassed Super Saiyan God. Had he surpassed Super Saiyan God earlier than that, then Gohan or Krillin would have commented on it clarifying it.

Essentially the "god boost" brought his SSJ to be SSG level not his base form. Otherwise, everybody would be SSG level and it would contradict episodes 13/14 and the statements made by the narrator and King Kai. Here's the numbers I use to describe it personally:

Goku(pre-ritual)
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSG: 8,000,000
Goku(post-ritual)
Base: 160,000
SSJ: 8,000,000
SSJ2: 16,000,000
SSJ3: 64,000,000
SSG: 128,000,000
SSB(hypothetical): 64,000,000,000

I explain the evidence we have that when Goku achieved the form without the ritual the multiplier went down here:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
Ok he cam still be equal in base and the statement would still be true.


Yes, but like I said, if his "Saiyan Beyond God" was the same strength that would mean that either that form is weaker than Super Saiyan God and yields a smaller boost or he didn't gain any power from training with Whis for 6 months. He can't possibly stay equal in this form, he would have to be far stronger or weaker. And the following statements show that he is weaker.
Nothing really says hes weaker. Nothing really suggest he cant be equal.

BoG he is weaker then god. 6 months later after whis training he is equal to god. No sayain beyond god shenanigans. Withing those 6 months between BoG and RoF he catchs up to god or his ssj. Nothing says this cant be the case. And it still fits in with ssj blue surpassing god. Especially later we find out he can still turn god.
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PF18
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 12 2018, 09:21 PM
PF18
Jul 12 2018, 08:53 PM
Quote:
 
Now if he's fighting on a different level of speed this implies his base is as fast (and stronger) as Super Saiyan God (BoG) Goku's level.


see the problem is that he wasn't on a different level of speed. I think you may be referring to a dub mistake or the movie or something because I don't believe that was in the DBS anime.

Quote:
 
Also, the line where Goku is said to have surpassed Super Saiyan God with Blue could simply mean that he's found a transformation pass Super Saiyan God. Similarly like how Gohan transcended the Mastered Super Saiyan form with Super Saiyan 2, even though he ascended beyond Mastered Super Saiyan they're are forced power up of that form which are too ascended beyond a mere Super Saiyan.


They aren't mutually exclusive. It is both. It is both a transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God and the first time that he had surpassed Super Saiyan God. Had he surpassed Super Saiyan God earlier than that, then Gohan or Krillin would have commented on it clarifying it.

Essentially the "god boost" brought his SSJ to be SSG level not his base form. Otherwise, everybody would be SSG level and it would contradict episodes 13/14 and the statements made by the narrator and King Kai. Here's the numbers I use to describe it personally:

Goku(pre-ritual)
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSG: 8,000,000
Goku(post-ritual)
Base: 160,000
SSJ: 8,000,000
SSJ2: 16,000,000
SSJ3: 64,000,000
SSG: 128,000,000
SSB(hypothetical): 64,000,000,000

I explain the evidence we have that when Goku achieved the form without the ritual the multiplier went down here:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
Ok he cam still be equal in base and the statement would still be true.


Yes, but like I said, if his "Saiyan Beyond God" was the same strength that would mean that either that form is weaker than Super Saiyan God and yields a smaller boost or he didn't gain any power from training with Whis for 6 months. He can't possibly stay equal in this form, he would have to be far stronger or weaker. And the following statements show that he is weaker.
Nothing really says hes weaker. Nothing really suggest he cant be equal.

BoG he is weaker then god. 6 months later after whis training he is equal to god. No sayain beyond god shenanigans. Withing those 6 months between BoG and RoF he catchs up to god or his ssj. Nothing says this cant be the case. And it still fits in with ssj blue surpassing god. Especially later we find out he can still turn god.
So you just propose that he got 50x stronger during this time with nothing indicating that he has this "Saiyan Beyond God" form? I don't think he did get that much stronger and there's nothing indicating otherwise. There was an awe struck moment associated with passing Super Saiyan God when he went SSB, if he was already equal or better that wouldn't make any sense.

Frankly, Beerus and Goku state his SSJ=SSG and I don't think that relationship changes and I don't think he gets 50x stronger over the course of the entire series let alone in his time with Whis. By my numbers from the time he got the god boost until the beginning of the ToP he got 30x stronger in his Base and his Base was still weaker than Super Saiyan God.

And that way anybody who is relative to Base Goku isn't also stronger than Super Saiyan God. Nothing indicates he got that strong too.
Edited by PF18, Yesterday, 9:37 PM.
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StrenuousSpider
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No sayain beyond god as he was not stronger then god. And why be awe struck when blue surpasses if ssj2 and 3 would well over power god.
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PF18
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 12 2018, 11:50 PM
No sayain beyond god as he was not stronger then god. And why be awe struck when blue surpasses if ssj2 and 3 would well over power god.
At this point I don't think I am getting anywhere. Let me just recap my stance here real quick:

Goku and Beerus stated that Goku's SSJ=SSG. Goku didn't feel weaker and Beerus said he absorbed it as he was the same power. I don't think this ever changed. So his SSJ is equal or stronger than SSG with his Base obviously being 1/50th of that.

Goku's Base being stronger than SSG isn't supported. The only scene where he appeared this may be possible was when he punched Beerus's ki blast in Base. This was either a result of a temporary "limit Breaking" boost or a result of Goku being able to access his full-power for a moment despite being heavily damaged and out of ki/stamina. This is shown when in RoF so explicit statement is made about the Base Goku being stronger than SSG/SSJ from before. If anything there is evidence that it is weaker than SSG becasue only when Goku goes SSB do the narrator/King Kai state that Goku surpassed SSG. This wouldn't make sense and would be redundant if he had already surpassed SSG in his Base.

Illustrating with numbers:

SSJ3 Goku: 1
SSG Goku: 20,000
SSJ(post-ritual): 20,000
Base(post-ritual): 400

This way it fits with the statements being made and it means that everybody and their mother who is on par with Base Goku has to be stronger than Super Saiyan God. That would be insane and apparently the writers agree according to what happened in the show.
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StrenuousSpider
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You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.

And again i did not say he was stronger just that he is equal to god. Which still lines up perfectly with the statements given.

So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.
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You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.


How does that make it false? This makes no sense. They are not mutually exclusive. Goku can be both stronger than SSG as a SSJ2 and SSB one being true does not make the other false. Goku did not use SSJ2 or any other form so they commented he had surpassed SSG when he went SSB. That was the first time he had surpassed it. Nothing suggests he IS god in base in the first place.


Quote:
 
So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not a clue
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StrenuousSpider
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PF18
Jul 13 2018, 02:32 AM
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You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.


How does that make it false? This makes no sense. They are not mutually exclusive. Goku can be both stronger than SSG as a SSJ2 and SSB one being true does not make the other false. Goku did not use SSJ2 or any other form so they commented he had surpassed SSG when he went SSB. That was the first time he had surpassed it. Nothing suggests he IS god in base in the first place.


Quote:
 
So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not a clue
The statement is false as its giving the impression that goku as blue and only blue surpassed god. It treats surpassing god as this grand thing when its not. Nothing says he cant be god at base or close to it nothing. God is still treated like this huge deal when he can simply go ssj or in your book ssj2 and surpass it. So why be surprised when blue is. So the whole thing in itself is a joke because BoG proves he has surpassed god in at least ssj.
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PF18
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 13 2018, 03:20 AM
PF18
Jul 13 2018, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.


How does that make it false? This makes no sense. They are not mutually exclusive. Goku can be both stronger than SSG as a SSJ2 and SSB one being true does not make the other false. Goku did not use SSJ2 or any other form so they commented he had surpassed SSG when he went SSB. That was the first time he had surpassed it. Nothing suggests he IS god in base in the first place.


Quote:
 
So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not a clue
The statement is false as its giving the impression that goku as blue and only blue surpassed god. It treats surpassing god as this grand thing when its not. Nothing says he cant be god at base or close to it nothing. God is still treated like this huge deal when he can simply go ssj or in your book ssj2 and surpass it. So why be surprised when blue is. So the whole thing in itself is a joke because BoG proves he has surpassed god in at least ssj.
What? That makes no sense. Jf anything that would make it mjsleading not false. And they commented he surpassed SSG when he had surpassed SSG, it doesn't preclude you from surpassing it in SSJ or SSJ2. You keep treating them like they are mutually exclusive
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StrenuousSpider
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PF18
Jul 13 2018, 04:12 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 13 2018, 03:20 AM
PF18
Jul 13 2018, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.


How does that make it false? This makes no sense. They are not mutually exclusive. Goku can be both stronger than SSG as a SSJ2 and SSB one being true does not make the other false. Goku did not use SSJ2 or any other form so they commented he had surpassed SSG when he went SSB. That was the first time he had surpassed it. Nothing suggests he IS god in base in the first place.


Quote:
 
So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not a clue
The statement is false as its giving the impression that goku as blue and only blue surpassed god. It treats surpassing god as this grand thing when its not. Nothing says he cant be god at base or close to it nothing. God is still treated like this huge deal when he can simply go ssj or in your book ssj2 and surpass it. So why be surprised when blue is. So the whole thing in itself is a joke because BoG proves he has surpassed god in at least ssj.
What? That makes no sense. Jf anything that would make it mjsleading not false. And they commented he surpassed SSG when he had surpassed SSG, it doesn't preclude you from surpassing it in SSJ or SSJ2. You keep treating them like they are mutually exclusive
Thats how it is treated. It is a surprise when blue outclasses god. Why be surprised when 3 inferior forms are stronger. And they all know how strong the ssj forms make them. Unless they are treating ssj as inferior to god. Which we know by Battle of gods that its not.
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In super i mean in the anime the three forms of ssj are inferior to god post god ssj or not. I n the movies though

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PF18
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 13 2018, 07:09 AM
PF18
Jul 13 2018, 04:12 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 13 2018, 03:20 AM
PF18
Jul 13 2018, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
You keep useing the same kong kai and narrator thing like its not false to begin with. He surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 and in my book ssj. Nothing suggest goku did not get stronger nothing suggest he is not god in base. You say temporary limit break it dont work that way.


How does that make it false? This makes no sense. They are not mutually exclusive. Goku can be both stronger than SSG as a SSJ2 and SSB one being true does not make the other false. Goku did not use SSJ2 or any other form so they commented he had surpassed SSG when he went SSB. That was the first time he had surpassed it. Nothing suggests he IS god in base in the first place.


Quote:
 
So i suggest unless you believe goku did not absorb god and everything in the beerus fight is wrong and should be ignored. Then stop useing those statements which are false. If he is only god as ssj then hes surpassed god as a ssj2 and 3 not just blue.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not a clue
The statement is false as its giving the impression that goku as blue and only blue surpassed god. It treats surpassing god as this grand thing when its not. Nothing says he cant be god at base or close to it nothing. God is still treated like this huge deal when he can simply go ssj or in your book ssj2 and surpass it. So why be surprised when blue is. So the whole thing in itself is a joke because BoG proves he has surpassed god in at least ssj.
What? That makes no sense. Jf anything that would make it mjsleading not false. And they commented he surpassed SSG when he had surpassed SSG, it doesn't preclude you from surpassing it in SSJ or SSJ2. You keep treating them like they are mutually exclusive
Thats how it is treated. It is a surprise when blue outclasses god. Why be surprised when 3 inferior forms are stronger. And they all know how strong the ssj forms make them. Unless they are treating ssj as inferior to god. Which we know by Battle of gods that its not.
Ok so then at the worst it is misleadinig because SSJ could surpass BoG SSG. This does not make it false. Regardless of how cohesive the reaction of the characters are it is still strongly implied that they had not surpassed SSG. This at the very least shows that "Saiyan Beyond God" does not exist. Either way, the emphasis on SSJ=SSG in BoG is never contradicted and still holds true based on the statements and showings.
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