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SSj4 Goku VS SSjG Goku; Both are Buu Saga; no god boost
Topic Started: Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM (2,639 Views)
FayeTimidea
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Yeah, my idea was that by extrapolating the old filler I could give some solid logic to defend the retcon standpoint without actively breaking the power scaling. As for 'tapping into the power of God', I guess since God runs off of God Ki I'm kind of forced to say yes here. I was effectively stating that Goku would power up as if he were going God, but stop before achieving it (I assume this is how he does it in the Buu arc filler, if we're talking in-universe.)


Well to me I don't feel like a retcon is necessary. It doesn't make much sense to me to stack the SSG multiplier onto the god boost so naturally the SSG multiplier would decrease. This is reinforced by two scenes in the ToP. The existence of SSG is not a concern since it is simply a reflection of using God Ki.

As far as the God Ki goes, the most prominent scene in which "SBG" is hypothesized to exist is in RoF with Goku vs Freeza but given that everybody can sense him he couldn't possibly have been using God Ki.

No offense, but I don't really think that this works particularly well. I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong I think it is really interesting and it is very creative! But I just don't think there's enough evidence in the series to get behind it with any confidence.
Well either way I seriously appreciate the time you took out of your night to debate with me. I'm so glad you and I could have a civilized conversation about this. Maybe a retcon isn't necessary, no. I just have a bad habit of over-complicating the hell out of things, haha.

I'll still be taking this back to the drawing board to see if I can figure out a more all-around feasible way to suggest its existence, and if I figure it out maybe I'll pass you a message and run it by you? :3
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FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 06:30 AM
PF18
Jul 6 2018, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Yeah, my idea was that by extrapolating the old filler I could give some solid logic to defend the retcon standpoint without actively breaking the power scaling. As for 'tapping into the power of God', I guess since God runs off of God Ki I'm kind of forced to say yes here. I was effectively stating that Goku would power up as if he were going God, but stop before achieving it (I assume this is how he does it in the Buu arc filler, if we're talking in-universe.)


Well to me I don't feel like a retcon is necessary. It doesn't make much sense to me to stack the SSG multiplier onto the god boost so naturally the SSG multiplier would decrease. This is reinforced by two scenes in the ToP. The existence of SSG is not a concern since it is simply a reflection of using God Ki.

As far as the God Ki goes, the most prominent scene in which "SBG" is hypothesized to exist is in RoF with Goku vs Freeza but given that everybody can sense him he couldn't possibly have been using God Ki.

No offense, but I don't really think that this works particularly well. I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong I think it is really interesting and it is very creative! But I just don't think there's enough evidence in the series to get behind it with any confidence.
Well either way I seriously appreciate the time you took out of your night to debate with me. I'm so glad you and I could have a civilized conversation about this. Maybe a retcon isn't necessary, no. I just have a bad habit of over-complicating the hell out of things, haha.

I'll still be taking this back to the drawing board to see if I can figure out a more all-around feasible way to suggest its existence, and if I figure it out maybe I'll pass you a message and run it by you? :3
Yeah go ahead and run it by me with a PM if you want.

I Dont really like to refer to this as debating as much as just having a discussion. Just trying to discuss the material here and come up with something rational.
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FayeTimidea
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 06:33 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 06:30 AM
PF18
Jul 6 2018, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Yeah, my idea was that by extrapolating the old filler I could give some solid logic to defend the retcon standpoint without actively breaking the power scaling. As for 'tapping into the power of God', I guess since God runs off of God Ki I'm kind of forced to say yes here. I was effectively stating that Goku would power up as if he were going God, but stop before achieving it (I assume this is how he does it in the Buu arc filler, if we're talking in-universe.)


Well to me I don't feel like a retcon is necessary. It doesn't make much sense to me to stack the SSG multiplier onto the god boost so naturally the SSG multiplier would decrease. This is reinforced by two scenes in the ToP. The existence of SSG is not a concern since it is simply a reflection of using God Ki.

As far as the God Ki goes, the most prominent scene in which "SBG" is hypothesized to exist is in RoF with Goku vs Freeza but given that everybody can sense him he couldn't possibly have been using God Ki.

No offense, but I don't really think that this works particularly well. I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong I think it is really interesting and it is very creative! But I just don't think there's enough evidence in the series to get behind it with any confidence.
Well either way I seriously appreciate the time you took out of your night to debate with me. I'm so glad you and I could have a civilized conversation about this. Maybe a retcon isn't necessary, no. I just have a bad habit of over-complicating the hell out of things, haha.

I'll still be taking this back to the drawing board to see if I can figure out a more all-around feasible way to suggest its existence, and if I figure it out maybe I'll pass you a message and run it by you? :3
Yeah go ahead and run it by me with a PM if you want.

I Dont really like to refer to this as debating as much as just having a discussion. Just trying to discuss the material here and come up with something rational.
Honestly, the word discussion makes alot more sense in our case anyways. Again, thanks for discussing with me! ^,^
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StrenuousSpider
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FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 06:20 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 06:16 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 06:02 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 05:53 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 05:23 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 05:13 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this:

Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc

RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such.

When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly.

Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\

Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol.

Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter.

And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again.

Ritual vs training
Time limit vs no limit
Massive boost vs small boost

Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual."
> I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj.

Ritual vs training
> Two means to the same end; I've already said this.
Time limit vs no limit
> It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form.
Massive boost vs small boost
> My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol.

No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon.

Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol.

As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
"To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol"
"What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks.

My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before.

"No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon."
I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't.

"Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol."
No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit.

That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation.


"As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual."
Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough.

You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate.
Then end it. Goku has ssj3 then so dose vegito.

In BoG no one was surprised when gohan lost as ultimate but surprised when goku lost. Goku was treated as there last hope if that dose not imply goku > gohan idk what to tell ya.

You say mine is baseless but thats all your so called explanations are baseless assumptions that hold no water. While i have evidence shown in the material itself that you pretty much say are false.

Time limit is a time limit goku being unfamiliar with the form has nothing to do with its time. That is something outside of his control.

And yes the fusion argument is valid. If anything more so. Its a unnatural form in all regards but lets jist forget about.

But yah im really bias against the same yet different forms. Do you realize how stupid that sounds right. I have a bias of original multipler and new one lol thats gold.

Regardless if you want me to even remotely take what you say as anything but baseless bring some evidence from the material that contradicts what the material said about god time limit. And about how the faild ritual power stayed with goku when borrowed power never stays.

What happened to goku with the faild ritual was a temporary gain of power of which he powers down from shortly after seeing its not god. So the power cant even be part of his godly power. And again even if goku got 100x stronger from the faild ritual it changes nothing the ritual boost would still out class its later boost.
Since I can barely understand your message and you asked me to end it, I will. Thank you for your time.
I know my grammer is horrid but its not that bad lol. Or maybe its just you dont really have anything from the material that supports anything you've said and thats why you in one way or another attack my grammer. Funny how now you cant understand me.

Regardless you are not ending this because little ol me said to. You are ending this because you wanted to. Remember you are the one that said they were gonna end it lol. All i asked were for you to give actual evidence to support your claims but instead you tuck your head between your legs and run from the subject.
Alright. I quoted actual quotes/feats of power from the show and you shrugged them off and insisted they were wrong, at every step of the way I was checking myself through clips from the show.

Your grammar isn't impossible to read but I'm in no way willing to dissect it at 2AM in order to continue a debate when you start throwing the word 'stupid' around.

I was going to continue the debate if you were willing to, but after you told me to go ahead (as well as, again, started throwing 'stupid' around, it no longer appealed to me to continue the discussion.

Have a good night, I will not reply to further messages from you. If you want, we can say that you won between the two of us; it's fine by me.
Its not really about winning. But it is interesting that you call me bias on a subject about ssj god vs ssj god but get upset when i call that stupid as its not really good thing to call someone bias just because they dont agree with you. Now let me explain this. Just because i call your argument or in this case assumption about me stupid is not me calling you stupid. Heart on the sleeve much dont ya think. Regardless i gave evidence and i dont remember you posting any that support your claim. Just alot of hearsay.
You brought up what filler to defend your point against PF18. You say training breaks the time limit gave no evidence to suggest such a thing is possible. Gave a explanation of why ritual was stronger but its flawed. You brought up gohans words about ssj goku.
So its not like you did not bring anything from the material just nothing that supports your claims hence no evidence.

But if you really truly are done because i called your assumption about me stupid. Then so be it i cant control what you do.
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superperfectnerd
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 02:11 AM
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Jul 6 2018, 01:41 AM
Kefla could just be a better fusion that Vegetto, which is also annoying considering the special union of rivals but fusion is random depending on compatibility of the fusees it would seem since Vegeta still seems stronger than Kibito Kai but base Vegetto is a power house. If I gave Supreme Kai and Kibito the same multiplier base Vegetto got, he'd be stronger than Kid Boo.

It could still be ssj3 Vegetto < ssjg Goku < base Kefla and not contradict a thing but just like my preference for two base theory, you don't like the idea of Kefla being a better fusion than Vegetto (thousands of times better) so you've done a head canon.
Well it is a matter of determining if you think it us more reasonable that Kefla's fusion is several times more potent for no reason given that the fusees arent even rivals, or that the SSG multiplier has been decreased drastically after the god boost. I mean to be able to stack SSG on top of the god boost would be insane and it appears that this isnt the case.

So then how do you rationalize SSG clearly not being an astronomical boost over SSJ2 anymore? It seems maybe a vouple fold over SSJ3 for that matter. Had it retained the same multiplier Goku would have killed Caulifla with his pinky toe on accident. Because their bases are equal and in BoG:

SSG>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ>>>Base

There's still way more evidence for this than two base theory .
I'm saying "maybe", I also don't like Kefla being stronger than Vegetto.

We're talking about an arc where every opponent cannot kill each other.

Goku takes hits from Toppo in base.

Goku takes hits from Jiren in base after Jiren makes a big show of revealing more power and yet people think because Goku seemingly exchanged blows in a warm up with Jiren in blue episodes prior, Goku must be 20 fold stronger because he was doing that with Kaioken before? What? The feats are all over the place and the only explanation is that everyone is pulling their punches massively.

Gohan was less than 2 times Cell and he two shot him. Vegeta was 2 shot by Kid Boo with a 4 times disadvantage. Dodoria had less than 10% difference and couldn't touch Vegeta. Even if Goku and Caulifla were equal as ssj2s, ssj3 would be enough to knock her straight out, let alone god, whether god is 8 times stronger or 800000000 times stronger, he still wouldn't kill her and she SHOULD still go down in one but that wouldn't be very dramatic. So Goku must be playing or trying really hard not to kill.

Base Kid Trunks took a hit from Super Boo in the anime, does that make him Super Boo tier? No.

Caulifla also couldn't even best a weakened base Goku whilst she was in ssj2 moments prior to being "his equal" when he went ssj2, so I don't know what this show is doing. It can tell me Goku's skill saved him but that doesn't gel with previous implications from the same story. Skill has never overcome a hundred fold gap, that's laughable. Goku's more skilled than Raditz but he could barely do anything to him.



Is base Goku suddenly powered up Jiren level here? No, the writers are just keeping the tension and we have to infer that Jiren is pulling his punches to be able to hit blue Goku and base Goku while only hurting both and not killing base or at least knocking him back to universe 7. You're clinging too hard to feats of established weaker characters doing okay in fights against established stronger ones. God fighting ssj2 for a bit doesn't mean it isn't much stronger in this tournament. They were probably fighting for like 10 seconds in real time anyway.

Unless of course that was saiyan beyond god Goku ;)

Basically the only feats you can take seriously as a testament to actual power are when 2 opponents are going at it, full strength and to the finish. Ssj4 Xeno Goku and ssjb Goku were not doing that, so it's hard to say.

I can infer how strong ssjbe Vegeta and god Toppo were, Jiren and UI complete Goku were because they went all out until somebody was beaten. I can't tell how strong ssjg Goku is compared to ssj2 Caulifla because it could be anywhere on a scale of base Goku all the way up to Jiren and not contradict any feats in this arc.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 6 2018, 10:58 AM.
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FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 03:14 AM
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Jul 6 2018, 02:44 AM
FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM
So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note.
1) The god boost was retconned.
> Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.
Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost.
2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both.

Round 1)
SSj4 VS SSjGod

Round 2)
SSj4 VS SSjBlue

Round 3)
Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue

Bonus:
Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
If you mean literally after Goku defeats Buu:

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJ4: 38,400,000,000 - 307,200,000,000


SSJ4 Goku loses horribly, unless I'm mistaken on the details?
Maybe somewhat mistaken. From what we know SSj4 Xeno Goku fought roughly on par with SSjBlue Goku --- at the same time though I have a couple friends who have mentioned that XEno Goku's base is higher than Goku's, so it really depends on if you see Base Xeno Goku as more than 5x Base Super Goku (since God to Blue is a rough increase of about 5x minimum, 9x maximum
Oh, we're basically scaling whatever the multiplier of Super Saiyan 4 is via his fight with Blue Goku? In that case:

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJ4: 816,000,000,000,000

Well the roles are reversed here in round 1.

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000
-SSJBLUE: 960,000,000,000,000

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJ4: 816,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 4 Goku (Xeno) gets loses round 2.

Ultra Full Power SSJ4 is around 10 to 15x stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4 given that GT Goku went from unable to hurt Syn (even tanking a Kamehameha x10) to straight up dominating him. So:

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJ4: 816,000,000,000,000
-UFPSSJ4: 8,160,000,000,000,000 - 12,240,000,000,000,000

Needless to say, Blue Goku loses badly in round 3

There's no contest this time, Mastered Super Saiyan Blue is at least 400x stronger than normal Blue, so nothing Goku (Xeno) has will work this round.
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I'm saying "maybe", I also don't like Kefla being stronger than Vegetto.

We're talking about an arc where every opponent cannot kill each other.

Goku takes hits from Toppo in base.

Goku takes hits from Jiren in base after Jiren makes a big show of revealing more power and yet people think because Goku seemingly exchanged blows in a warm up with Jiren in blue episodes prior, Goku must be 20 fold stronger because he was doing that with Kaioken before? What? The feats are all over the place and the only explanation is that everyone is pulling their punches massively.

Gohan was less than 2 times Cell and he two shot him. Vegeta was 2 shot by Kid Boo with a 4 times disadvantage. Dodoria had less than 10% difference and couldn't touch Vegeta. Even if Goku and Caulifla were equal as ssj2s, ssj3 would be enough to knock her straight out, let alone god, whether god is 8 times stronger or 800000000 times stronger, he still wouldn't kill her and she SHOULD still go down in one but that wouldn't be very dramatic. So Goku must be playing or trying really hard not to kill.

Base Kid Trunks took a hit from Super Boo in the anime, does that make him Super Boo tier? No.


There's also Bulma taking a hit from Beerus and Yamcha taking a hit from Champa.

Yes, I am aware that these sort of things happen and the fact that she didn't die doesn't indicate much of anything especially given the nature of this arc. The exact verbatim I used of "he could kill her with his pinky toe" was really meant to be more of comical than being taken literally. The point is he should be able to one shot her in SSG, and while he did clearly have an advantage the gap is clearly not nearly as wide as it should be given the boost he got against Beerus. He should at the very least, have been able to tank everything from her, not even bothering to dodge and one shot her.(Obviously he wouldn't kill her though.)

Now quantifying this "gap" is very vague and isn't entirely objective. However, this only really serves as supplementary evidenc/reinforces the fact that the relationship between the SSG boost and the potara boost took a complete 180. I don't think Goku should be able to compound the SSG boost twice, and it certainly appears that the writers agree with me.(Even if they didn't think of this they certainly portrayed it In-Universe purposely or not.)

Quote:
 
Caulifla also couldn't even best a weakened base Goku whilst she was in ssj2 moments prior to being "his equal" when he went ssj2, so I don't know what this show is doing. It can tell me Goku's skill saved him but that doesn't gel with previous implications from the same story. Skill has never overcome a hundred fold gap, that's laughable. Goku's more skilled than Raditz but he could barely do anything to him.


This was explained even though maybe it wasn't a particularly good explanation. Still, it was explained and not just left open to interpretation. SSJ2 Caulifla had a huge advantage in power but Goku's skill was giving him the advantage but as the fight progressed Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style and started winning and that's when Goku went SSJ2 and they proceeded to fight evenly. Whether it be base or SSJ2, they are even in equivalent forms and that holds true throughout.

Quote:
 
Is base Goku suddenly powered up Jiren level here? No, the writers are just keeping the tension and we have to infer that Jiren is pulling his punches to be able to hit blue Goku and base Goku while only hurting both and not killing base or at least knocking him back to universe 7. You're clinging too hard to feats of established weaker characters doing okay in fights against established stronger ones. God fighting ssj2 for a bit doesn't mean it isn't much stronger in this tournament. They were probably fighting for like 10 seconds in real time anyway.


You can't just disregard any fight where you suspect that either fighter may be holding back a little bit. Goku would have had no reason to suppress himself further than just being low enough to prevent killing them, and he could use his full-power to tank their hits, or dodge their attacks with no consequences in regards to being disqualified. Literally all that he has to do is pull his punches to prevent taking their life. If he kept the same multiplier he should have been able to just tank all of her attacks with no damage whatsoever. Instead, he's dodging and avoiding her attacks and not one shotting her.

So, either Kefla's fusion is 100x more potent than Vegetto's fusion and Goku was awkwardly suppressed as a SSG against Caulifla and Kale, or Goku just simply doesn't yield the same boost after the ritual and after he retained the god boost.
Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 04:19 PM.
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Ok but seriously I don't think I have answered the topic's question yet.

No god boost since this would be like Goku just getting the form and before he absorbed/experienced the power. But still I think SSG>>SSJ4.

SSG made Goku go from being inferior to Ultimate Gohan to being superior to SSJ3 Vegetto. The boost is astronomically large. I think that SSJ4 is at the very most about 80x SSJ3.

So yeah I think SSG demolishes SSJ4 in this bout. If we took BoDBGT Goku vs BoDBS Goku and gave them the respective forms then it would be more interesting. Beginning of DBS Goku is stronger than his Buu arc counterpart but not by too much. Beginning of GT Goku is stronger than his SSJ3 Buu arc counterpart in his base form. So it would be more interesting because of the difference in their base forms.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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A whole lot of nothing being argued about. There is no SSJG was "compounded twice". SSJG was the same strength before and after Goku experienced it's power as was already shown. When he went SSJG again at the end of the film it was the same strength as it was before. He wasn't many folds beyond his previous SSJG power.
And Goku wasn't at 1/8th of his full power against Beerus. The Super Saiyan form he was using was his full power.

SSJG Goku was at the level of the Gods as stated and Goku after BOG no longer was at that level. This was stated by Whis. He only reached that level again after gaining Super Saiyan Blue.

As far as this topic is concerned, the SSJG multiplier from the ritual is higher than Super Saiyan 4.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jul 6 2018, 05:09 PM.
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PF18
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A whole lot of nothing being argued about.


One of these days you will decide to stop being so rude. When that day finally comes it will be a glorious day.

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When he went SSJG again at the end of the film it was the same strength as it was before.


Dude why are you talking about the film? We are talking about DBS.

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And Goku wasn't at 1/8th of his full power against Beerus.


What are you talking about? Nobody said he was.

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SSJG Goku was at the level of the Gods as stated and Goku after BOG no longer was at that level


You take this statement way too literally. Goku trained with Whis, achieved SSB, trained for 3 years in the ROSAT, used Kaiokenx10 on top of SSB, got 10x stronger since then, used Kaokenx20 on top of that, achieved UI three times and only THEN was he on the level of the GoDs as stated by supplementary material and implied in the show. So SSG couldn't possibly have been LITERALLY on the level of the GoDS if he got literally hundreds of times stronger and only then did he become equal/stronger than Beerus.
Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 05:17 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 04:17 PM
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I'm saying "maybe", I also don't like Kefla being stronger than Vegetto.

We're talking about an arc where every opponent cannot kill each other.

Goku takes hits from Toppo in base.

Goku takes hits from Jiren in base after Jiren makes a big show of revealing more power and yet people think because Goku seemingly exchanged blows in a warm up with Jiren in blue episodes prior, Goku must be 20 fold stronger because he was doing that with Kaioken before? What? The feats are all over the place and the only explanation is that everyone is pulling their punches massively.

Gohan was less than 2 times Cell and he two shot him. Vegeta was 2 shot by Kid Boo with a 4 times disadvantage. Dodoria had less than 10% difference and couldn't touch Vegeta. Even if Goku and Caulifla were equal as ssj2s, ssj3 would be enough to knock her straight out, let alone god, whether god is 8 times stronger or 800000000 times stronger, he still wouldn't kill her and she SHOULD still go down in one but that wouldn't be very dramatic. So Goku must be playing or trying really hard not to kill.

Base Kid Trunks took a hit from Super Boo in the anime, does that make him Super Boo tier? No.


There's also Bulma taking a hit from Beerus and Yamcha taking a hit from Champa.

Yes, I am aware that these sort of things happen and the fact that she didn't die doesn't indicate much of anything especially given the nature of this arc. The exact verbatim I used of "he could kill her with his pinky toe" was really meant to be more of comical than being taken literally. The point is he should be able to one shot her in SSG, and while he did clearly have an advantage the gap is clearly not nearly as wide as it should be given the boost he got against Beerus. He should at the very least, have been able to tank everything from her, not even bothering to dodge and one shot her.(Obviously he wouldn't kill her though.)

Now quantifying this "gap" is very vague and isn't entirely objective. However, this only really serves as supplementary evidenc/reinforces the fact that the relationship between the SSG boost and the potara boost took a complete 180. I don't think Goku should be able to compound the SSG boost twice, and it certainly appears that the writers agree with me.(Even if they didn't think of this they certainly portrayed it In-Universe purposely or not.)

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Caulifla also couldn't even best a weakened base Goku whilst she was in ssj2 moments prior to being "his equal" when he went ssj2, so I don't know what this show is doing. It can tell me Goku's skill saved him but that doesn't gel with previous implications from the same story. Skill has never overcome a hundred fold gap, that's laughable. Goku's more skilled than Raditz but he could barely do anything to him.


This was explained even though maybe it wasn't a particularly good explanation. Still, it was explained and not just left open to interpretation. SSJ2 Caulifla had a huge advantage in power but Goku's skill was giving him the advantage but as the fight progressed Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style and started winning and that's when Goku went SSJ2 and they proceeded to fight evenly. Whether it be base or SSJ2, they are even in equivalent forms and that holds true throughout.

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Is base Goku suddenly powered up Jiren level here? No, the writers are just keeping the tension and we have to infer that Jiren is pulling his punches to be able to hit blue Goku and base Goku while only hurting both and not killing base or at least knocking him back to universe 7. You're clinging too hard to feats of established weaker characters doing okay in fights against established stronger ones. God fighting ssj2 for a bit doesn't mean it isn't much stronger in this tournament. They were probably fighting for like 10 seconds in real time anyway.


You can't just disregard any fight where you suspect that either fighter may be holding back a little bit. Goku would have had no reason to suppress himself further than just being low enough to prevent killing them, and he could use his full-power to tank their hits, or dodge their attacks with no consequences in regards to being disqualified. Literally all that he has to do is pull his punches to prevent taking their life. If he kept the same multiplier he should have been able to just tank all of her attacks with no damage whatsoever. Instead, he's dodging and avoiding her attacks and not one shotting her.

So, either Kefla's fusion is 100x more potent than Vegetto's fusion and Goku was awkwardly suppressed as a SSG against Caulifla and Kale, or Goku just simply doesn't yield the same boost after the ritual and after he retained the god boost.
Jiren SHOULD also be able to one shot ssjb Goku if he can do what he does to kaioken blue X 20 but he doesn't. He SHOULD be able to tank all of ssjb Goku's attacks but he doesn't. Despite this we know Jiren is way more than 20 times blue Goku and yet you're not applying the same to ssjg Goku versus ssj2 caulifla? We're also told multiple times that Goku is weakened, remember what golden Freeza and 17 did to a weakened Jiren?

Ssjb <<< ssjbkkx20 <<< UI omen <<< Jiren and yet blue Goku can budge Jiren, Jiren chooses to dodge.

Ssj2 Caulifla <<< ssj3 Goku <<< ssjg Goku and yet Caulifla can budge Goku and he chooses to dodge


Do you see what I mean?

Jiren chooses to block base Vegeta's punches too.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 6 2018, 05:32 PM.
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PF18
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Ssj2 Kefla <<< ssj3 Goku <<< ssjg Goku and yet Caulifla can budge Goku and he chooses to dodge


Uhhh SSJ2 Kefla is weaker than SSJ3 Goku? Are you sure about this? I can't say I agree on this one
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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The film shows the same events as the show, so unfortunately that excuse doesn't hold water. The same narrative is retained with Beerus using 10% of his strength against Vegeta and him powering up even further to fight Goku.

Yes you are stating that Goku was at 1/8th of his full power against Beerus since you claim that SSJ Goku from his fight with Beerus is no different than the one from now even though one is stated to be on the level of the Gods and the other is stated to not be.

Because Goku couldn't have gone SSJ3 during the film and physically overpowered Beerus despite being negligibly weaker than SSJG as an SSJ. Just like that Super Saiyan form with SSJG's power was his full power in the show. He had no higher power than that.

And no. UI Goku in any of his incarnations was never stated to be comparable to the Gods of Destruction. Ever. It isn't going to be true no matter how many times you repeat it. This has been addressed multiple times with you. You make no attempt to properly interpret the dialogue in the story.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jul 6 2018, 05:34 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 05:30 PM
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Ssj2 Kefla <<< ssj3 Goku <<< ssjg Goku and yet Caulifla can budge Goku and he chooses to dodge


Uhhh SSJ2 Kefla is weaker than SSJ3 Goku? Are you sure about this? I can't say I agree on this one
Sorry I mean Caulifla.
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PF18
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The film shows the same events as the show, so unfortunately that excuse doesn't hold water. The same narrative is retained with Beerus using 10% of his strength against Vegeta and him powering up even further to fight Goku.


....yeah that just isn't true. Beerus gave no real indication about his power he was stated to have lied about using his full-power and obviously he must have been lieing to Vegeta too. Goku never re-attains SSG in the DBS anime he just uses it and then it expires. He doesn't achieve it at the end like he does in the movie.

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Yes you are stating that Goku was at 1/8th of his full power against Beerus since you claim that SSJ Goku from his fight with Beerus is no different than the one from now even though one is stated to be on the level of the Gods and the other is stated to not be

Because Goku couldn't have gone SSJ3 during the film and physically overpowered Beerus despite being negligibly weaker than SSJG as an SSJ.


I never said that Goku could have gone SSJ3 during this time. Beerus and Goku both stated that Goku's SSJ at this time was equal to SSG from a moment prior. This is explicitly stated there isn't any further speculation about whether he can use SSJ3 during this time that doesn't matter.

Again, you are mentioning the film, In the Film the gap between SSG Goku and Beerus is exponentially smaller than in the DBS anime. Goku is 60% of Beerus in the film but not in the DBS anime. If Goku had somehow managed to go SSJ3 during this time he still would have gotten absolutely destroyed he wouldn't have been able to overpower him like you are implying.

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And no. UI Goku in any of his incarnations was never stated to be comparable to the Gods of Destruction. Ever. It isn't going to be true no matter how many times you repeat it. This has been addressed multiple times with you. You make no attempt to properly interpret the dialogue in the story.


Belmod is stronger than Beerus and weaker than Jiren. Whis implies Belmod is stronger than Beerus and at the very least they are equals. Jiren is stronger than Belmod. Goku completes UI and dominates Jiren. All of this is very clear. If Goku can beat Jiren he is far stronger than the GoDS. UI Omen is their equal and completed UI is their superior. The supplementary material confirms this and states that 3rd UI Omen is equal to Beerus. And the DBS anime very heavily implies that:

Completed UI Goku>Limits Broken Jiren>Full-Power Jiren>Belmod>Beerus~3rd UI Omen Goku.

So Goku cannot be on the level of the GoDs in SSG while simultaneously be weaker after achieving SSB and stacking Kaioken x20 on top of it. That just doesn't make any sense.

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You make no attempt to properly interpret the dialogue in the story.


I think you need to try "properly interpreting the dialogue" in the show.


Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 05:45 PM.
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