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SSj4 Goku VS SSjG Goku; Both are Buu Saga; no god boost
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Topic Started: Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM (2,640 Views)
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
Post #31
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well! You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol.
Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter.
And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again.
Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost
Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
Post #32
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff. "You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj.
Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 05:13 AM
Post #33
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this. To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol.
No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon.
Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol.
As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 05:14 AM
Post #34
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:54 AM
- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 04:49 AM
To me it isn't particularly complicated:
SSG(pre-ritual): 20,000x SSJ3 SSG(post-ritual): 2x SSJ3
Since he had experienced that power and infused it within himslelf as stated by Beerus, and Goku himself stated he was the same strength as a SSJ when the ritual expired, he couldn't reach the same boost when he used the form from this point forward after already experiencing it and what not.
No Saiyan Beyond God shenanigans, just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity. As far as illustrating this with numbers:
Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base-160,000 SSJ-8,000,000 SSJ2-16,000,000 SSJ3-64,000,000 SSG-128,000,000
So yeah I mean his base was super strong after he experienced the power and infused it in himself. This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training.
prior to this monumental boost none of those would be possible.
"No Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans" I mean, it's just as preposterous as assuming that SSjG went from 20,000x SSj3 all the way down to 2x. "Just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity."  Checkmate. "This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training. " So do my 'Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans' I mean the 20,000 down to 2x is just my personal numbers and the numbers themselves are just my opinion. You could kind of put them wherever you feel is appropriate as long as you back it up. I don't claim then to be fact or definitive in any way. I could explain how I came to these numbers but again the method by which I came up with these numbers are subjective and I don't expect anybody
Was that image in the manga huh? I don't recall. Not really a big fan of the manga but I know there was no statement by Beerus/Goku about absorbing the power of SSG.
But anyway, as far as the anime is concerned, SSJ was stated by Beerus and Goku themselves to be equal(and may have gotten stronger than) to the SSG from a moment ago. Now, from that point forward there isn't any evidence that this changed.
During the RoF arc, Goku powers up in his "Base" state that people speculate is his "Saiyan Beyond God" state. However, Gohan and Krillin just make generic and vague statements about him being strong but no comparison is made. Then, at the end of the episode the narrator clearly states that when Goku turns SSB that he had surpassed SSG. It was strongly implied that ONLY THEN did he surpass SSG. Additionally, the "Saiyan Beyond God" premise operates under the assumption that Goku/Vegeta can use God Ki in their base. However, as I earlier mentioned everyone is sensing Goku during this period where he is supposedly in a "Saiyan Beyond God" state. Obviously this "Saiyan Beyond God" state as implieid by the name is supposed to be as strong or stronger than SSG. Had Goku been in a state superior to SSG prior to SSB, there would have been no such mention by the narrator.
In the continuity where Saiyan Beyond God actually exists, the movie continuity, the promotional material states that they had been able to use God Ki and surpassed SSG in their base, and then when they transform into SSJ it results in SSGSS(or SSB). Now they only had two states: SBG and SSB. Both using God Ki. They had no use for normal ki, and by extension the golden SSJ forms. Not only was it strongly implied SSG Goku BoG>Base Goku RoF which wasn't the case in the movie, but the normal golden SSJ forms are seen being used. They can't use God Ki in their base and they have retained the ability to transform into golden SSJ. This invalidates the premise that was established of having SBG and SSB. And in DBS it is established that they only exert the godly "pressure" and are unable to be sensed when they are in a god transformation. Nothing is ever once mentioned that they cannot sense them in their base form due to God Ki. This also implies there is no "Saiyan Beyond God" in the DBS continuity where God Ki can be used in their base.
So It is pretty clear that Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movie continuity to the DBS continuity. Nothing implies it's existence in the DBS anime.
I'm not really a big fan of the manga so I am not as well versed, but there is no mention by Beerus or Goku that there was an infusion/absorption of the SSG power as a result of Goku experiencing that power like there was in the anime.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 05:23 AM
Post #35
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 05:13 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol. No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon. Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol. As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual. "To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol" "What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks.
My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before.
"No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon." I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't.
"Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol." No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit.
That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation.
"As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual." Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough.
You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 05:33 AM
Post #36
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To me it isn't particularly complicated:
SSG(pre-ritual): 20,000x SSJ3 SSG(post-ritual): 2x SSJ3
Since he had experienced that power and infused it within himslelf as stated by Beerus, and Goku himself stated he was the same strength as a SSJ when the ritual expired, he couldn't reach the same boost when he used the form from this point forward after already experiencing it and what not.
No Saiyan Beyond God shenanigans, just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity. As far as illustrating this with numbers:
Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base-160,000 SSJ-8,000,000 SSJ2-16,000,000 SSJ3-64,000,000 SSG-128,000,000
So yeah I mean his base was super strong after he experienced the power and infused it in himself. This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training.
prior to this monumental boost none of those would be possible.
"No Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans" I mean, it's just as preposterous as assuming that SSjG went from 20,000x SSj3 all the way down to 2x. "Just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity."  Checkmate. "This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training. " So do my 'Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans'
I mean the 20,000 down to 2x is just my personal numbers and the numbers themselves are just my opinion. You could kind of put them wherever you feel is appropriate as long as you back it up. I don't claim then to be fact or definitive in any way. I could explain how I came to these numbers but again the method by which I came up with these numbers are subjective and I don't expect anybody Was that image in the manga huh? I don't recall. Not really a big fan of the manga but I know there was no statement by Beerus/Goku about absorbing the power of SSG. But anyway, as far as the anime is concerned, SSJ was stated by Beerus and Goku themselves to be equal(and may have gotten stronger than) to the SSG from a moment ago. Now, from that point forward there isn't any evidence that this changed. During the RoF arc, Goku powers up in his "Base" state that people speculate is his "Saiyan Beyond God" state. However, Gohan and Krillin just make generic and vague statements about him being strong but no comparison is made. Then, at the end of the episode the narrator clearly states that when Goku turns SSB that he had surpassed SSG. It was strongly implied that ONLY THEN did he surpass SSG. Additionally, the "Saiyan Beyond God" premise operates under the assumption that Goku/Vegeta can use God Ki in their base. However, as I earlier mentioned everyone is sensing Goku during this period where he is supposedly in a "Saiyan Beyond God" state. Obviously this "Saiyan Beyond God" state as implieid by the name is supposed to be as strong or stronger than SSG. Had Goku been in a state superior to SSG prior to SSB, there would have been no such mention by the narrator. In the continuity where Saiyan Beyond God actually exists, the movie continuity, the promotional material states that they had been able to use God Ki and surpassed SSG in their base, and then when they transform into SSJ it results in SSGSS(or SSB). Now they only had two states: SBG and SSB. Both using God Ki. They had no use for normal ki, and by extension the golden SSJ forms. Not only was it strongly implied SSG Goku BoG>Base Goku RoF which wasn't the case in the movie, but the normal golden SSJ forms are seen being used. They can't use God Ki in their base and they have retained the ability to transform into golden SSJ. This invalidates the premise that was established of having SBG and SSB. And in DBS it is established that they only exert the godly "pressure" and are unable to be sensed when they are in a god transformation. Nothing is ever once mentioned that they cannot sense them in their base form due to God Ki. This also implies there is no "Saiyan Beyond God" in the DBS continuity where God Ki can be used in their base. So It is pretty clear that Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movie continuity to the DBS continuity. Nothing implies it's existence in the DBS anime. I'm not really a big fan of the manga so I am not as well versed, but there is no mention by Beerus or Goku that there was an infusion/absorption of the SSG power as a result of Goku experiencing that power like there was in the anime. Yeah, the image was in the manga. I don't know why I didn't think to show it alongside my initial reference to Saiyajin Beyond God, honestly. Sorry about that.
In the anime Goku asks Beerus that, since he's a god, shouldn't he have an explanation why Goku's not any weaker. Beerus makes something up on the spot, an assumption at best. You could just as easily say that it was SSj God's power temporarily boosting his SSj, much like the SA13 movie's spirit bomb absorption, and much like the failed ritual from earlier in the arc. The idea of artificially boosting one's energy , even in SSj, is not unheard of.
I'm aware of how the SBG form works in the movies, however at the same time the movie implies that a Saiyajin who has the SBG state can't go SSj, and in the anime they can. Much like how in the anime -- unlike the movie -- Goku isn't a 6 to Beerus's 10, as far as I'm concerned it can be explained away as a slight difference from the movie to the anime. Instead of surpassing God and locking off SSj1-3, it's a harnessing of the power of SSj God and is effectively like edging the form but not quite ascending. ^ I will acknowledge that this is a shaky defense and that without this I have no viable explanation, so if you'd like me to forget about this I can accept that and we can agree that -- due to the absence of the Saiyajin Beyond God concept -- my theory is faulty and inapplicable. You've been amazingly civil so far and I see no reason to push a point if there's really no way to convince you of it.
The manga is hit or miss in places like the anime, but so far it's been pretty alright. Does alot of stuff that I wish the anime did. I'd say look into it for the sole fact that it gives you extra debate material in VS matches, honestly.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 05:52 AM
Post #37
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the movie implies that a Saiyajin who has the SBG state can't go SSj
Well yeah exactly. They can't go SSJ because they can no longer access God Ki in their base form. This was established when Gohan and Kururin were able to sense Goku's ki. He no longer has God Ki in base and that is exactly why the SSJ transformations are still available to him. Otherwise, the Golden SSJ forms would be obsolete and there would be no point in using them. The dialogue from the narrator also shows later in the episode that his base was not stronger than SSG like it was in the movies. So it is pretty strongly implied that there is no longer a "Saiyan Beyond God" and for that matter two base forms.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 05:53 AM
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I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol. No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon. Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol. As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
"To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol" "What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks. My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before. "No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon." I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't. "Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol." No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit. That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation. "As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual." Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough. You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate. Then end it. Goku has ssj3 then so dose vegito.
In BoG no one was surprised when gohan lost as ultimate but surprised when goku lost. Goku was treated as there last hope if that dose not imply goku > gohan idk what to tell ya.
You say mine is baseless but thats all your so called explanations are baseless assumptions that hold no water. While i have evidence shown in the material itself that you pretty much say are false.
Time limit is a time limit goku being unfamiliar with the form has nothing to do with its time. That is something outside of his control.
And yes the fusion argument is valid. If anything more so. Its a unnatural form in all regards but lets jist forget about.
But yah im really bias against the same yet different forms. Do you realize how stupid that sounds right. I have a bias of original multipler and new one lol thats gold.
Regardless if you want me to even remotely take what you say as anything but baseless bring some evidence from the material that contradicts what the material said about god time limit. And about how the faild ritual power stayed with goku when borrowed power never stays.
What happened to goku with the faild ritual was a temporary gain of power of which he powers down from shortly after seeing its not god. So the power cant even be part of his godly power. And again even if goku got 100x stronger from the faild ritual it changes nothing the ritual boost would still out class its later boost.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 06:00 AM
Post #39
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 05:52 AM
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the movie implies that a Saiyajin who has the SBG state can't go SSj
Well yeah exactly. They can't go SSJ because they can no longer access God Ki in their base form. This was established when Gohan and Kururin were able to sense Goku's ki. He no longer has God Ki in base and that is exactly why the SSJ transformations are still available to him. Otherwise, the Golden SSJ forms would be obsolete and there would be no point in using them. The dialogue from the narrator also shows later in the episode that his base was not stronger than SSG like it was in the movies. So it is pretty strongly implied that there is no longer a "Saiyan Beyond God" and for that matter two base forms. Lemme just say I was never arguing the two bases theory, that theory actually makes me sad and I never want to accept it or imply that I accept it. I was less implying that his base was stronger than SSjG. I'm using the 'Saiyajin Beyond God' term for the state because it gets the concept across better.
Since I did compare it to the Goku-Pikkon filler, I could leave it unnamed or coin them 'Essence of a SSj' (which someone here has done, I believe!) and 'Essence of a SSj God'.


I'm basically lumping these two concepts together and implying that Goku is able to tap into the power of God to a certain degree before ascending to the state, as well as being able to do the same to SSj. Note that I am aware the SSj one is from filler, but if we're disregarding filler then we'd be forced to disregard all filler, which includes some of the DBS filler scenes that actually push more for your argument than my own.
Does that make a bit more sense? Sorry if I was causing confusion with the 'SBG' name.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 06:02 AM
Post #40
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- StrenuousSpider
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol. No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon. Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol. As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
"To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol" "What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks. My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before. "No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon." I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't. "Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol." No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit. That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation. "As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual." Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough. You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate.
Then end it. Goku has ssj3 then so dose vegito. In BoG no one was surprised when gohan lost as ultimate but surprised when goku lost. Goku was treated as there last hope if that dose not imply goku > gohan idk what to tell ya. You say mine is baseless but thats all your so called explanations are baseless assumptions that hold no water. While i have evidence shown in the material itself that you pretty much say are false. Time limit is a time limit goku being unfamiliar with the form has nothing to do with its time. That is something outside of his control. And yes the fusion argument is valid. If anything more so. Its a unnatural form in all regards but lets jist forget about. But yah im really bias against the same yet different forms. Do you realize how stupid that sounds right. I have a bias of original multipler and new one lol thats gold. Regardless if you want me to even remotely take what you say as anything but baseless bring some evidence from the material that contradicts what the material said about god time limit. And about how the faild ritual power stayed with goku when borrowed power never stays. What happened to goku with the faild ritual was a temporary gain of power of which he powers down from shortly after seeing its not god. So the power cant even be part of his godly power. And again even if goku got 100x stronger from the faild ritual it changes nothing the ritual boost would still out class its later boost. Since I can barely understand your message and you asked me to end it, I will. Thank you for your time.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 06:06 AM
Post #41
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 06:00 AM
- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 05:52 AM
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the movie implies that a Saiyajin who has the SBG state can't go SSj
Well yeah exactly. They can't go SSJ because they can no longer access God Ki in their base form. This was established when Gohan and Kururin were able to sense Goku's ki. He no longer has God Ki in base and that is exactly why the SSJ transformations are still available to him. Otherwise, the Golden SSJ forms would be obsolete and there would be no point in using them. The dialogue from the narrator also shows later in the episode that his base was not stronger than SSG like it was in the movies. So it is pretty strongly implied that there is no longer a "Saiyan Beyond God" and for that matter two base forms.
Lemme just say I was never arguing the two bases theory, that theory actually makes me sad and I never want to accept it or imply that I accept it. I was less implying that his base was stronger than SSjG. I'm using the 'Saiyajin Beyond God' term for the state because it gets the concept across better. Since I did compare it to the Goku-Pikkon filler, I could leave it unnamed or coin them 'Essence of a SSj' (which someone here has done, I believe!) and 'Essence of a SSj God'.   I'm basically lumping these two concepts together and implying that Goku is able to tap into the power of God to a certain degree before ascending to the state, as well as being able to do the same to SSj. Note that I am aware the SSj one is from filler, but if we're disregarding filler then we'd be forced to disregard all filler, which includes some of the DBS filler scenes that actually push more for your argument than my own. Does that make a bit more sense? Sorry if I was causing confusion with the 'SBG' name. Oh ok I gotcha. At this point I am very used to trying to explain my concerns with the two base theory and why I don't think it makes much sense. You refuse to accept two base theory? The good news is you don't have to accept it because it isn't substantiated!
So you are pulling from the filler in DBZ and extrapolating it to DBS? When you say "Tap into the power of God" do you mean God Ki? There is a clear distinction between regular ki and God Ki and Goku/Vegeta cannot use God Ki in their base form so I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Can he tap into the power of God without using God Ki? Honestly I am still confused lol.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 06:14 AM
Post #42
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 06:06 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 06:00 AM
- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 05:52 AM
- Quote:
-
the movie implies that a Saiyajin who has the SBG state can't go SSj
Well yeah exactly. They can't go SSJ because they can no longer access God Ki in their base form. This was established when Gohan and Kururin were able to sense Goku's ki. He no longer has God Ki in base and that is exactly why the SSJ transformations are still available to him. Otherwise, the Golden SSJ forms would be obsolete and there would be no point in using them. The dialogue from the narrator also shows later in the episode that his base was not stronger than SSG like it was in the movies. So it is pretty strongly implied that there is no longer a "Saiyan Beyond God" and for that matter two base forms.
Lemme just say I was never arguing the two bases theory, that theory actually makes me sad and I never want to accept it or imply that I accept it. I was less implying that his base was stronger than SSjG. I'm using the 'Saiyajin Beyond God' term for the state because it gets the concept across better. Since I did compare it to the Goku-Pikkon filler, I could leave it unnamed or coin them 'Essence of a SSj' (which someone here has done, I believe!) and 'Essence of a SSj God'.   I'm basically lumping these two concepts together and implying that Goku is able to tap into the power of God to a certain degree before ascending to the state, as well as being able to do the same to SSj. Note that I am aware the SSj one is from filler, but if we're disregarding filler then we'd be forced to disregard all filler, which includes some of the DBS filler scenes that actually push more for your argument than my own. Does that make a bit more sense? Sorry if I was causing confusion with the 'SBG' name.
Oh ok I gotcha. At this point I am very used to trying to explain my concerns with the two base theory and why I don't think it makes much sense. You refuse to accept two base theory? The good news is you don't have to accept it because it isn't substantiated! So you are pulling from the filler in DBZ and extrapolating it to DBS? When you say "Tap into the power of God" do you mean God Ki? There is a clear distinction between regular ki and God Ki and Goku/Vegeta cannot use God Ki in their base form so I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Can he tap into the power of God without using God Ki? Honestly I am still confused lol. Yeah, my idea was that by extrapolating the old filler I could give some solid logic to defend the retcon standpoint without actively breaking the power scaling. As for 'tapping into the power of God', I guess since God runs off of God Ki I'm kind of forced to say yes here. I was effectively stating that Goku would power up as if he were going God, but stop before achieving it (I assume this is how he does it in the Buu arc filler, if we're talking in-universe.)
So does that mean the extrapolation doesn't work, or should I just go back to the drawing board and try to get a better flow of logic to it and then try it again? I obviously don't wanna use it if it contradicts what we know after all.
Maybe he can tap into the god form's power without god ki up to a certain point? I doubt it so I'll likely have to scrap the concept as I have it for the time being.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 06:16 AM
Post #43
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 06:02 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 05:53 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:23 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 05:13 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol. No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon. Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol. As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
"To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol" "What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks. My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before. "No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon." I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't. "Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol." No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit. That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation. "As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual." Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough. You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate.
Then end it. Goku has ssj3 then so dose vegito. In BoG no one was surprised when gohan lost as ultimate but surprised when goku lost. Goku was treated as there last hope if that dose not imply goku > gohan idk what to tell ya. You say mine is baseless but thats all your so called explanations are baseless assumptions that hold no water. While i have evidence shown in the material itself that you pretty much say are false. Time limit is a time limit goku being unfamiliar with the form has nothing to do with its time. That is something outside of his control. And yes the fusion argument is valid. If anything more so. Its a unnatural form in all regards but lets jist forget about. But yah im really bias against the same yet different forms. Do you realize how stupid that sounds right. I have a bias of original multipler and new one lol thats gold. Regardless if you want me to even remotely take what you say as anything but baseless bring some evidence from the material that contradicts what the material said about god time limit. And about how the faild ritual power stayed with goku when borrowed power never stays. What happened to goku with the faild ritual was a temporary gain of power of which he powers down from shortly after seeing its not god. So the power cant even be part of his godly power. And again even if goku got 100x stronger from the faild ritual it changes nothing the ritual boost would still out class its later boost.
Since I can barely understand your message and you asked me to end it, I will. Thank you for your time. I know my grammer is horrid but its not that bad lol. Or maybe its just you dont really have anything from the material that supports anything you've said and thats why you in one way or another attack my grammer. Funny how now you cant understand me.
Regardless you are not ending this because little ol me said to. You are ending this because you wanted to. Remember you are the one that said they were gonna end it lol. All i asked were for you to give actual evidence to support your claims but instead you tuck your head between your legs and run from the subject.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 06:20 AM
Post #44
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 06:16 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 06:02 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 05:53 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:23 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 05:13 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 05:06 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:57 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this: Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such. When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly. Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\ Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual. Its not going to make him go from a small multiplier over 3 to millions lol. Never said that you said BoG goku > jiren. I made that claim. But it honestly dont matter. And no its not baseless i have gave you 3 reasons to why they are different. But ill say it again. Ritual vs training Time limit vs no limit Massive boost vs small boost Those are huge differences not minor ones. Its like the original potara concept vs dance type of difference but there is 3 of them each being solidified unlike the fusion stuff.
"You are putting way to much credit on the faild ritual." > I'm putting too much stock in the failed ritual, yet even Gohan said he never felt power like that before. That means in his amplified SSj state Goku's power surpassed Ultimate Gohan and Buutenks. I can't say Gohan would know the power of Buuhan or Vegetto so he may not be above those in SSj. Ritual vs training > Two means to the same end; I've already said this. Time limit vs no limit > It could easily be stated that using the ritual to achieve the form is an unreliable and all around unstable method, while training to reach the same state results in being able to hold onto the form. Massive boost vs small boost > My previous reply to you explains this.
To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to gohan so what your point lol. Jist because he got stronger and is the highest ki hes felt dose not put him millions times stronger lol. No you cant just say two means to a end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon. Time limit explanation is just completely false lol. A time limit is a time limit. Thats like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol. As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual.
"To much credit is to much credit. Goku was already treated superior to Gohan so what your point lol" "What your point", mate? Goku was never once stated to be superior to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan as a SSj. Super Buu was of equal to or greater power than Majin Buu, who Goku needed SSj3 for. Ultimate Gohan was able to outclass Goku as a whole and fight Super Buu and dominate, until Buutenks. My point is that at this point in the anime, Ultimate Gohan was vastly superior to Super Saiyajin 1 Goku. Thusly, that means that post-failed-ritual SSJ Goku is marginally stronger than he had been prior to the failed ritual, enough so to shock Gohan who had been superior moments before. "No you cant just say two means to an end when the ritual was treated as the only way by a all knowing dragon." I mean, I kind of just did. It holds more ground than your interpretation, buddy. I explained how the power difference could be explained, as well as why one showing of the form is temporary and the other isn't. "Time limit explanation is just completelt false lol. A time limit is a time limit. That's like saying gogeta and vegito have a time limit becaus ethey are not used to the form lol." No because that's a different circumstance which we have an explanation for. Fusion time is dictated by the power of the fusion and the stamina drain while fused. Hence why Vegetto Blue lasted much less time than Super Vegetto on the same theoretical time limit. That argument makes no sense because you're comparing two entirely different things. Vegetto is not a transformation, nor is Gogeta. They are being created by two forms of fusion. Super Saiyajin God is not a being, it is a transformation. "As for the boost you cant have them the same no matter what you try to pull you cant. God was shown to be only mildly above ssj3 while before it surpassed ssj3 - base vegito - ssj vegito - ssj 2 vegito - ssj3 vegito by a large margin and that margin is not mixed by no measly boost from a faild ritual." Reference my explanation as to why there's an apparent difference in the multiplier of God. Also there's no confirmation that Goku was referring to SSj3 Vegetto when he said fusion wouldn't be enough but if that's how you want to interpret it then that's fair enough. You're disregarding statements that I've given because of your own personal bias and it's frankly leading me to want to end our discussion on a stalemate.
Then end it. Goku has ssj3 then so dose vegito. In BoG no one was surprised when gohan lost as ultimate but surprised when goku lost. Goku was treated as there last hope if that dose not imply goku > gohan idk what to tell ya. You say mine is baseless but thats all your so called explanations are baseless assumptions that hold no water. While i have evidence shown in the material itself that you pretty much say are false. Time limit is a time limit goku being unfamiliar with the form has nothing to do with its time. That is something outside of his control. And yes the fusion argument is valid. If anything more so. Its a unnatural form in all regards but lets jist forget about. But yah im really bias against the same yet different forms. Do you realize how stupid that sounds right. I have a bias of original multipler and new one lol thats gold. Regardless if you want me to even remotely take what you say as anything but baseless bring some evidence from the material that contradicts what the material said about god time limit. And about how the faild ritual power stayed with goku when borrowed power never stays. What happened to goku with the faild ritual was a temporary gain of power of which he powers down from shortly after seeing its not god. So the power cant even be part of his godly power. And again even if goku got 100x stronger from the faild ritual it changes nothing the ritual boost would still out class its later boost.
Since I can barely understand your message and you asked me to end it, I will. Thank you for your time.
I know my grammer is horrid but its not that bad lol. Or maybe its just you dont really have anything from the material that supports anything you've said and thats why you in one way or another attack my grammer. Funny how now you cant understand me. Regardless you are not ending this because little ol me said to. You are ending this because you wanted to. Remember you are the one that said they were gonna end it lol. All i asked were for you to give actual evidence to support your claims but instead you tuck your head between your legs and run from the subject. Alright. I quoted actual quotes/feats of power from the show and you shrugged them off and insisted they were wrong, at every step of the way I was checking myself through clips from the show.
Your grammar isn't impossible to read but I'm in no way willing to dissect it at 2AM in order to continue a debate when you start throwing the word 'stupid' around.
I was going to continue the debate if you were willing to, but after you told me to go ahead (as well as, again, started throwing 'stupid' around, it no longer appealed to me to continue the discussion.
Have a good night, I will not reply to further messages from you. If you want, we can say that you won between the two of us; it's fine by me.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 06:26 AM
Post #45
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Yeah, my idea was that by extrapolating the old filler I could give some solid logic to defend the retcon standpoint without actively breaking the power scaling. As for 'tapping into the power of God', I guess since God runs off of God Ki I'm kind of forced to say yes here. I was effectively stating that Goku would power up as if he were going God, but stop before achieving it (I assume this is how he does it in the Buu arc filler, if we're talking in-universe.)
Well to me I don't feel like a retcon is necessary. It doesn't make much sense to me to stack the SSG multiplier onto the god boost so naturally the SSG multiplier would decrease. This is reinforced by two scenes in the ToP. The existence of SSG is not a concern since it is simply a reflection of using God Ki.
As far as the God Ki goes, the most prominent scene in which "SBG" is hypothesized to exist is in RoF with Goku vs Freeza but given that everybody can sense him he couldn't possibly have been using God Ki.
No offense, but I don't really think that this works particularly well. I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong I think it is really interesting and it is very creative! But I just don't think there's enough evidence in the series to get behind it with any confidence.
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