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SSj4 Goku VS SSjG Goku; Both are Buu Saga; no god boost
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Topic Started: Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM (2,641 Views)
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 03:14 AM
Post #16
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- Jul 6 2018, 02:44 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM
So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note. 1) The god boost was retconned. > Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless. Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost. 2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both. Round 1) SSj4 VS SSjGod Round 2) SSj4 VS SSjBlue Round 3) Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 ( http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue Bonus: Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
If you mean literally after Goku defeats Buu: Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000 Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJ4: 38,400,000,000 - 307,200,000,000 SSJ4 Goku loses horribly, unless I'm mistaken on the details? Maybe somewhat mistaken. From what we know SSj4 Xeno Goku fought roughly on par with SSjBlue Goku --- at the same time though I have a couple friends who have mentioned that XEno Goku's base is higher than Goku's, so it really depends on if you see Base Xeno Goku as more than 5x Base Super Goku (since God to Blue is a rough increase of about 5x minimum, 9x maximum
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 03:39 AM
Post #17
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:14 AM
- Solid Snake
- Jul 6 2018, 02:44 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM
So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note. 1) The god boost was retconned. > Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless. Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost. 2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both. Round 1) SSj4 VS SSjGod Round 2) SSj4 VS SSjBlue Round 3) Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 ( http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue Bonus: Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
If you mean literally after Goku defeats Buu: Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000 Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJ4: 38,400,000,000 - 307,200,000,000 SSJ4 Goku loses horribly, unless I'm mistaken on the details?
Maybe somewhat mistaken. From what we know SSj4 Xeno Goku fought roughly on par with SSjBlue Goku --- at the same time though I have a couple friends who have mentioned that XEno Goku's base is higher than Goku's, so it really depends on if you see Base Xeno Goku as more than 5x Base Super Goku (since God to Blue is a rough increase of about 5x minimum, 9x maximum I mean Xeno Goku is irrelevant to this discussion. Xeno Goku takes place in a continuity where Gt happens except BoG happens and he gets the god boost. Thats the point of Xeno Goku he's>>>>>>>>>>>GT Goku. We are talking about both at the end of the Buu Arc right? So Xeno Goku would be completely irrelevant to this discussion.
And the 5x minimum to 9x maximum is for the manga continuity of DBS only.
And if we are talking about strictly the achieving the form right after the Buu Arc then the god boost is also irrelevant to this discussion. Goku got it when the SSG ran out and his body experienced and retained that level of power. But we are talking about strictly getting the SSG form and the multiplier that follows. Not getting the ritual, retaining that strength in your SSJ form, training with Whis and learning hiw to access SSG on your own. So again, the god boost is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 03:46 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
Post #18
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God. Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue.
The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 03:47 AM
Post #19
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 03:39 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:14 AM
- Solid Snake
- Jul 6 2018, 02:44 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM
So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note. 1) The god boost was retconned. > Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless. Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost. 2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both. Round 1) SSj4 VS SSjGod Round 2) SSj4 VS SSjBlue Round 3) Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 ( http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue Bonus: Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
If you mean literally after Goku defeats Buu: Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000 Goku: 76,800,000 -MSSJ: 3,840,000,000 -SSJ2: 7,680,000,000 -SSJ3: 30,720,000,000 -SSJ4: 38,400,000,000 - 307,200,000,000 SSJ4 Goku loses horribly, unless I'm mistaken on the details?
Maybe somewhat mistaken. From what we know SSj4 Xeno Goku fought roughly on par with SSjBlue Goku --- at the same time though I have a couple friends who have mentioned that XEno Goku's base is higher than Goku's, so it really depends on if you see Base Xeno Goku as more than 5x Base Super Goku (since God to Blue is a rough increase of about 5x minimum, 9x maximum
I mean Xeno Goku is irrelevant to this discussion. Xeno Goku takes place in a continuity where Gt happens except BoG happens and he gets the god boost. Thats the point of Xeno Goku he's>>>>>>>>>>>GT Goku. We are talking about both at the end of the Buu Arc right? So Xeno Goku would be completely irrelevant to this discussion. And the 5x minimum to 9x maximum is for the manga continuity of DBS only. He's not irrelevant because his fight with Blue Goku is the only fight we see of 4 VS Blue. I'll give you the point on the 5-9x limit only being on the manga, but unless you can give me a solid scaling factor of God to Blue in the anime, I see no reason to exclude the manga's rough estimate.
As for Xeno Goku's backstory, that's something I wasn't aware of. If you're going to entirely disregard the two sources of information we have at our disposal to get an actual estimate of SSj4's power, I guess that's a /shrug on my part. If you wanna go based on opinion that's cool since we're kinda in the realms of the later parts of the Dragon Ball continuity where power scaling is a challenge (basically anything Buu and beyond), but personally I use whatever numbers I can find to give some semblance of a canon-based figure.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 03:52 AM
Post #20
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god. There isn't a separate version of SSG that is somehow ridiculously stronger than the other purely because it was achieved with the ritual where the other isn't. This absorption of that power through experiencing it wouldnt make sense to compound itself otherwise you would essentially end up with the SSG boost^2 which is insane and is shown not to be the case twice in the ToP.
Goku was taught how to use God Ki by Whis so he could tap into it at will. It is literally that simple.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god. I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto.
So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon?
Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon.
I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 04:03 AM
Post #22
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At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
That is exactly what is happening. All that is happening is there's two ways to get there. Nothing further is required here.
As far as a retcon goes, I don't see how that is the case as i went into a little more detail earlier. And like you said it would break the whole scale.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 04:08 AM
Post #23
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 03:52 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
There isn't a separate version of SSG that is somehow ridiculously stronger than the other purely because it was achieved with the ritual where the other isn't. This absorption of that power through experiencing it wouldnt make sense to compound itself otherwise you would essentially end up with the SSG boost^2 which is insane and is shown not to be the case twice in the ToP. Goku was taught how to use God Ki by Whis so he could tap into it at will. It is literally that simple. We have
ritual -> massive boost over 3, time limit, not achieved with training
Normal -> small boost over 3, no time limit, achieved through training
How are they not different to you. Even if you go with after the absorption its multiplier decreased it still equates to a different form as its no longer the same.
Regardless Nothing i said puts the original god multiplier on top of him again nothing. I specifically specified that the multipliers are not the same. That is exactly what you are mentioning it to be if you think they are the same. Because guess what if they are the same then goku is getting millions of times stronger when turning god because you cant change a multiplier after its established. So no its not as simple as tapping into its power or else he would be unstoppable.
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 04:12 AM
Post #24
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:08 AM
- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 03:52 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
There isn't a separate version of SSG that is somehow ridiculously stronger than the other purely because it was achieved with the ritual where the other isn't. This absorption of that power through experiencing it wouldnt make sense to compound itself otherwise you would essentially end up with the SSG boost^2 which is insane and is shown not to be the case twice in the ToP. Goku was taught how to use God Ki by Whis so he could tap into it at will. It is literally that simple.
We have ritual -> massive boost over 3, time limit, not achieved with training Normal -> small boost over 3, no time limit, achieved through training How are they not different to you. Even if you go with after the absorption its multiplier decreased it still equates to a different form as its no longer the same. Regardless Nothing i said puts the original god multiplier on top of him again nothing. I specifically specified that the multipliers are not the same. That is exactly what you are mentioning it to be if you think they are the same. Because guess what if they are the same then goku is getting millions of times stronger when turning god because you cant change a multiplier after its established. So no its not as simple as tapping into its power or else he would be unstoppable. Oh ok I think I get what you are saying now. Since they are different multipliers in the most technical sense they are "different forms." But not in like a literal sense. At the end of the day they clearly have different multipliers so I guess either works but they ultimately have the same result so it doesnt particularly matter how you rationalize it.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
Post #25
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- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end. I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again
Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions)
God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x)
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StrenuousSpider
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Jul 6 2018, 04:21 AM
Post #26
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 04:12 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:08 AM
- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 03:52 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
There isn't a separate version of SSG that is somehow ridiculously stronger than the other purely because it was achieved with the ritual where the other isn't. This absorption of that power through experiencing it wouldnt make sense to compound itself otherwise you would essentially end up with the SSG boost^2 which is insane and is shown not to be the case twice in the ToP. Goku was taught how to use God Ki by Whis so he could tap into it at will. It is literally that simple.
We have ritual -> massive boost over 3, time limit, not achieved with training Normal -> small boost over 3, no time limit, achieved through training How are they not different to you. Even if you go with after the absorption its multiplier decreased it still equates to a different form as its no longer the same. Regardless Nothing i said puts the original god multiplier on top of him again nothing. I specifically specified that the multipliers are not the same. That is exactly what you are mentioning it to be if you think they are the same. Because guess what if they are the same then goku is getting millions of times stronger when turning god because you cant change a multiplier after its established. So no its not as simple as tapping into its power or else he would be unstoppable.
Oh ok I think I get what you are saying now. Since they are different multipliers in the most technical sense they are "different forms." But not in like a literal sense. At the end of the day they clearly have different multipliers so I guess either works but they ultimately have the same result so it doesnt particularly matter how you rationalize it. Prettu much. same form in the sense of looks and such but different in multipliers. Like i believe they cant do the ritual more then once for obvious reasons. But if they could hed have the ritual multiplier and not gods.
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Billa
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Jul 6 2018, 04:33 AM
Post #27
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Thala na Gethu!
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SSJ Blue Goku wins...like in the manga, dats the way their fight concluded right?
God/Kaioken Goku loses naturally
Every other SSJ4 Goku forms wont beat SSJ Blue Goku
Despite my opinion on SSJ4 form bein much suited for battle & not runnin out of stamina & stuff
I dont play digits, yet I still cannot understand how did Blueper won the fight?
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 04:34 AM
Post #28
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- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 04:17 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 03:54 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 03:45 AM
- FayeTimidea
- Jul 6 2018, 12:56 AM
- StrenuousSpider
- Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.
Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
Idk maybe the fact he was stated to absorb god. Shown it in the next arc. And depending on the sub says hes stronger then before. Another says his power is terrifyingly high something not said about his power in BoG. Ssj god not making him billions of times stronger is another thing that shows the two are different. And yes training is a way to unlock god. Blue is stated to be useing the power of god with ssj or something similar. So god is needed. So we have god being gained two different ways and we have two different multipliers for it. Logic to me says they are different yet similar forms. And vegeta did not do the ritual yet has blue. The ritual god aas temporary it has a time limit which normal god dose not which can also be another difference between the two. And id assume he can no longer do the ritual so no acces to this insanely strong god.
I don't believe you understand what a retcon is. In the Buu arc we were informed that the Potara permanently fuse the users, and in the Manga (Viz translation, I believe) it was 'bad air' inside of Buu that de-fused Vegetto. So should I say that Vegetto (Super) is a different entity than Vegetto (Z) because of a potara retcon? Again, I acknowledged that claiming the use of SSj God in the ToP as a retcon breaks the power scaling, however when you take into account that a retcon is literally changing how something works or happens in the DB story, it's not logical to claim it's not a retcon because of what happened prior to the potential retcon. I also would like to point out that Goku and Vegeta's glimpse into the power of Blue while training with Whis had far more to do with extremely fine ki control as opposed to the statement of SSj being stacked on God. That doesn't disqualify God as a prerequisite since the technique is quite literally Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin by name, however it also doesn't mean there's 2 different God forms. At most it means there's two different means to the same end.
I do understand what a retcon is i just dont think you can simply retcon what two arcs established and solidified. I also dont really think potara was retconed much either. Yes i think it was in the since of no permanent fusion of non kais but the reason for defusion in buu saga is not time limit ill stick with the original reason that fits into that entire sagas theme. Tho that retcon dose not change really anything dose it now. How ever like i said changing god changes everything we know. To the point BoG goku >>>> jiren. And thats not the case. The idea of two different gods is not something that dose not have any merit. Like ive mentioned they are treated as totally different forms. And ill write it again Ritual- done with ritual, has a time limit, massive boost(in the millions) God- training, no time limit, small boost(not even 100x) I... where did I ever say that God in the ToP was gonna make Goku stronger than Jiren or imply that? In my eyes the multiplier God boasted never changed. I believe that the ToP could theoretically retcon the god boost at the cost of breaking power scaling for the rest of the show. Regardless, the idea that there are two different identical-looking forms achieved in two different ways that are the same except for power is completely baseless. It makes more sense to assume this:
Initial God: Boosted in power by the failed god ritual that happened prior to the successful one, resulting in such a high power. It could also explain why he was still able to do decently in his fight with Beerus, though that is a bit of a stretch. This allows the multiplier for God to be reasonably lower without breaking the BoG arc
RoF 'God'/Saiyajin Beyond God: Simply put, it could simply be that Goku was summoning the power of SSjGod without actually going into the form. My defense for this invovles anime filler and an in universe explanation for it but it goes as such.
When Goku and Pikkon are fighting in Hell, Goku goes into a form that looks identical to SSj, but with black hair/eyes. Now, OOC we know it was a combination of an animation error and a time crunch, but in universe it could be described as Goku powering up to near-SSj power without going SSj, to hide it from Pikkon. What if Goku was just powering up to near-God levels of power without going God, since he's generally known to hold back in fights, even against Beerus if I recall correctly.
Tournament of Power God: The same God form in multiplier and such that Goku used in Battle of Gods AKA Initial God, except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\
Hell, looking at it that way preserves the power scaling, and uses totally reasonable in-universe logic in order to explain it, as well!
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PF18
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Jul 6 2018, 04:49 AM
Post #29
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To me it isn't particularly complicated:
SSG(pre-ritual): 20,000x SSJ3 SSG(post-ritual): 2x SSJ3
Since he had experienced that power and infused it within himslelf as stated by Beerus, and Goku himself stated he was the same strength as a SSJ when the ritual expired, he couldn't reach the same boost when he used the form from this point forward after already experiencing it and what not.
No Saiyan Beyond God shenanigans, just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity. As far as illustrating this with numbers:
Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base-160,000 SSJ-8,000,000 SSJ2-16,000,000 SSJ3-64,000,000 SSG-128,000,000
So yeah I mean his base was super strong after he experienced the power and infused it in himself. This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training.
prior to this monumental boost none of those would be possible.
- Quote:
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except because he doesn't have the boost from the failed ritual, its apparent power output deceptively seems lessened, while really it's about the same.\
I have trouble believing that the failed ritual made THAT much of a difference given how they were shown to be atleast bare minimum 100x different in terms of multiplier.(IMO it is 10,000x but that's just my opinion.)
I mean I just attribute the lesser SSG being a result of him previously absorbing the form. I mean if he could use the same multiplier on top of the god boost he got it would be absolutely insane.
Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 04:53 AM.
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FayeTimidea
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Jul 6 2018, 04:54 AM
Post #30
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- PF18
- Jul 6 2018, 04:49 AM
To me it isn't particularly complicated:
SSG(pre-ritual): 20,000x SSJ3 SSG(post-ritual): 2x SSJ3
Since he had experienced that power and infused it within himslelf as stated by Beerus, and Goku himself stated he was the same strength as a SSJ when the ritual expired, he couldn't reach the same boost when he used the form from this point forward after already experiencing it and what not.
No Saiyan Beyond God shenanigans, just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity. As far as illustrating this with numbers:
Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base-160,000 SSJ-8,000,000 SSJ2-16,000,000 SSJ3-64,000,000 SSG-128,000,000
So yeah I mean his base was super strong after he experienced the power and infused it in himself. This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training.
prior to this monumental boost none of those would be possible. "No Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans" I mean, it's just as preposterous as assuming that SSjG went from 20,000x SSj3 all the way down to 2x.
"Just using forms that were actually stated and shown to exist in the DBS continuity."
 Checkmate.
"This explains how he was shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit, and Buu after training. " So do my 'Saiyan Beyond God Shenanigans'
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