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SSJ3 Gotenks vs. Super Buu
Topic Started: Jun 26 2018, 03:40 PM (681 Views)
Vance
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Scenario: In an uncharacteristic display of sportsmanship, Super Buu opts out of absorbing SSJ3 Gotenks & Piccolo, instead choosing to face his former foe to the death legitimately. The boys, now invigorated by Gohan's presence, are determined to impress the older boy by destroying Super Buu as quickly as possible, with no delay for tomfoolery. Buu, on the other hand, wishes to mentally weaken Gohan by brutalizing the boys, and thus is holding nothing back.


Restrictions
- No Absorption / Candy Beam
- Gotenks is fully aware of his time limit



Who takes this?
"A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them"
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+ Son-Goku
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孫悟空

Being fully aware of his time limit, Gotenks would win. He would goof off for as long as possible, then get the job done. If he wasn't aware, he'd likely get distracted and spend too much time messing around. He has the power to win, he just has to use it.
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+ Pyrus
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I would go with Gotenks here since he isn't fooling around with his time.
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superperfectnerd
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I am of the opinion that Boo always would have outlasted and bested Gotenks. Boo revealed he was fully aware of Gohan the whole time he fought ssj3 Gotenks and became aware of the time limit, he needed Gohan to arrive and then to absorb a fresh ssj3 Gotenks in order to beat Gohan. You need a bigger power advantage than Gotenks had in order to fully destroy Boo's body.
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I think Gotenks definitely had more than enough power to destroy Buu's body. It's just a matter of actually doing it and not fooling around.
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Topographic Oceans
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I think there might a plot hole in this section of the Boo arc.

As SSJ3 Gotenks was laying the smackdown on Boo, Goku even comments on how they might not need Gohan after all. Shortly after this, the fight ends with Gotenks' timer running out just as he was about to obliterate Boo. It's crystal clear: as a Super Saiyan 3, Gotenks is stronger than Boo and would've defeated him if he hadn't been a total dunderhead. That's the entire gimmick of Gotenks' character during that specific portion of the story: he's a powerhouse who can't get anything done because he's way too arrogant/dumb.

But then... we have Boo saying stuff like this to Gohan:

"It’s your fault. I was supposed to be the strongest. I began to form this plan when I first sensed your presence far from Earth and realised that you might prove stronger than I. So I thought if I should absorb “Super Gotenks”, I should surely be able to retain my title regardless of who should appear."

"You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…"

This stuff clearly implies that Gohan is the first opponent Boo came across that was stronger than him.

This makes absolutely no sense. There's no way Boo already had his plan in mind as he was getting beaten up by Gotenks because Gohan only powered-up into his "ultimate" state AFTER Gotenks had already defused.

Gotenks had clearly proven himself to be stronger than Boo during their fight... but then Boo comes up with this nonsense about how Gohan is the first to "challenge his throne" or wathever. Those two things are clearly irreconcilable, generating a plot hole. Thus, it becomes difficult to determine if Gotenks was stronger than Boo or not because even the author/the story itself suddenly changed their minds about that.

edit: Okay, the bits where I refer to the kids defusing were actually about the moment where Gotenks powered-down back to base. The overall point stills tands, though. There's a logical inconsistency at play.
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jun 26 2018, 09:00 PM.
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+ Six Trails
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I consider Gotenks and Boo as equals. I don't think Boo was giving it all he had at the end of their fight when Gotenks was kicking his butt, and that was just his way of letting Gotenks think he was superior so that he could easily goad the boys into fusing later and absorb them.

With that said, if both are going all-out then I would give the win to Boo for superior stamina and regeneration, unless Gotenks has some wacky attack to blow Boo away for good.
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Topographic Oceans
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Six Trails
Jun 26 2018, 08:52 PM
I consider Gotenks and Boo as equals. I don't think Boo was giving it all he had at the end of their fight when Gotenks was kicking his butt, and that was just his way of letting Gotenks think he was superior so that he could easily goad the boys into fusing later and absorb them.
The problem with this is that Boo states that he only hatched his absorption plan after feeling "ultimate" Gohan's power. Which could only have feasibly happened after Gotenks powered-down back to base, because it was only after that point that Gohan went ultimate.
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He was talking about Gohan's outburst earlier, I believe.

I don't think Boo would need to goad the kids into thinking they were superior. That seems like Boo reading ahead in the script rather than a believable part of his plan. He couldn't have possibly known Gohan wouldn't eliminate him.
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Topographic Oceans
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Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:14 PM
He was talking about Gohan's outburst earlier, I believe.
So Gohan was already stronger than Gotenks during his outburst?
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Topographic Oceans
Jun 26 2018, 09:16 PM
Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:14 PM
He was talking about Gohan's outburst earlier, I believe.
So Gohan was already stronger than Gotenks during his outburst?
It's possible. I don't remember that exact span of time.
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Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:21 PM
Topographic Oceans
Jun 26 2018, 09:16 PM
Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:14 PM
He was talking about Gohan's outburst earlier, I believe.
So Gohan was already stronger than Gotenks during his outburst?
It's possible. I don't remember that exact span of time.
Less than an hour.

The outburst happens when Piccolo convinces Buu to wait an hour..
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Topographic Oceans
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Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:21 PM
Topographic Oceans
Jun 26 2018, 09:16 PM
Pyrus
Jun 26 2018, 09:14 PM
He was talking about Gohan's outburst earlier, I believe.
So Gohan was already stronger than Gotenks during his outburst?
It's possible. I don't remember that exact span of time.
But that would make the gaps a bit too small, wouldn't it? I know gaps are completely arbitrary, but still.

Everyone s***s their pants at Gohan's brief outburst, so it was certainly impressive. But if he was already stronger than Gotenks, then the gap between outburst!Gohan and "complete" ultimate Gohan would be too small. We know ultimate Gohan isn't THAT far ahead of Gotenks, since adding Gotenks' power to his own was enough for Boo to throw Gohan around like a ragdoll. If Ultimate Gohan isn't too far ahead of Gotenks and outburst!Gohan is already stronger than Gotenks, then the gap between those two versions of Gohan is pretty small. That doesn't add up with the fact that Goku once again reacts in a flaggerbasted manner when Gohan goes ultimate, implying there was another significant power-up and that "ultimate" Gohan should be quite a bit stronger than outburst!Gohan.
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Thiln
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Is it possible the outburst could have included some of the typical rage induced adrenal spiking which Gohan is known for briefly unleashing? At the time, his potential wasn't completely unleashed so a wellspring would have still existed there for him to tap into. Elder Kaioshin's ritual would have fully unleashed that remaining power and made it normatively usable by Gohan without any emotional impetus required. What's more, if Super Buu's plan was only devised after Gohan had become Mystic then it calls into question certain coincidences like why Buu was taking so long to retaliate against Gotenks once the fused being had depleted himself of his power and regressed back to base. There were several pages of dialogue that occurred between Buu recovering and Gohan powering up. Given what he had just endured and with Piccolo's assessment of Buu having been psychologically affronted by the impertinence of Gotenks' power in mind, my first impression is that Buu would have proceeded to torture Gotenks as excruciatingly as possible. We saw none of that, however. Plus, for Buu to devise a multi-step strategy like he did on his feet like that really calls into question why he would need Piccolo's "mind" in the first place if he's already showing the kind of shrewdness that Vegeta on Namek was demonstrating.

Secondly, you have Buutenks' explanation to Gohan about how he had come up with the strategy in the midst of fighting Gotenks, or more specifically, "if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”. By the time Mystic Gohan formally came into existence, the fighting had already ceased and Gotenks was even't transformed at that point. It was more like a condemned man, or child in this situation, staring his executioner in the face. To me, at least, that seems to indicate he felt Gohan's outburst from before. They even go to the trouble of portraying Super Buu's reaction to first hearing Gotenks give away his time limit earlier - implying that it was an important detail which he might have kept in mind for some possible future event.

Answering the original question - it's possible Super Buu could win if he took to using attritional tactics and waiting Gotenks out. Regardless if a minute power difference existed or not, what Buu had in abundance which Gotenks lacked so poorly in was time and stamina. Fusion Dance isn't intended to be used for long protracted wars. It's supposed to be an all or nothing surgical strike that damages the enemy as much as possible in the hopes of defeating them before giving out. Piccolo was actually right in his observations there. Gotenks could win if he went all out at the beginning and gave no quarter to Buu - that includes no joking around, no theatrics, just pure lethal killing intent. Otherwise, I have to give the nod to Buu.
Edited by Thiln, Jun 26 2018, 10:19 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Boo can sense ki better than others, Piccolo who has been doing this for years did not feel Gohan's power in a far off place, Boo did. There are multiple instances in the series where characters being able to sense potential power beyond an opponent's current level would explain things and it even happens, like Goku knowing Ginyu was stronger than he first showed, Boo simply knew the full extent of the power he felt would be above him.

Boo also not only needed Goten and Trunks to believe they were able to defeat him but also Piccolo and Gohan, he needed to goad everyone into letting the boys fuse again, he needed them to think they could win when he admitted to this being his plan all along, he was always in control.

Also, does "stronger" literally have to mean "higher power level", Boo could simply mean that he would beat Gotenks in a fight and not Gohan, Gotenks might be slightly stronger and faster but Boo would still win with his regen and stamina, so would technically be the "strongest warrior in the universe" still as he wouldn't lose. Like a boxer claiming to be the "strongest" because their granite chin carries them through the fight but they can't bench as much as their opponent. Doesn't really matter in the fight.
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