SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren

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SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 20 2018, 08:03 PM (1,581 Views)
StrenuousSpider	Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM Post #31
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT.



PF18	Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM Post #32
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing



Vance	Jun 21 2018, 02:41 AM Post #33
Posts: 326 Group: Member Member #13,910 Joined: June 17, 2017	SSJ3 Kefla eviscerates Jiren. Nothing indicates that UI --> MUI is a 4x gap, which would be required for Full-Power Jiren to even be in consideration to defeat SSJ3 Kefla going by feats.
	"A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them"


PF18	Jun 21 2018, 03:20 AM Post #34
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Vance Jun 21 2018, 02:41 AM SSJ3 Kefla eviscerates Jiren. Nothing indicates that UI --> MUI is a 4x gap, which would be required for Full-Power Jiren to even be in consideration to defeat SSJ3 Kefla going by feats. Yeah thats what I said pretty much word for word. What about the bonus fights?



Vance	Jun 21 2018, 03:38 AM Post #35
Posts: 326 Group: Member Member #13,910 Joined: June 17, 2017	PF18 Jun 21 2018, 03:20 AM Vance Jun 21 2018, 02:41 AM SSJ3 Kefla eviscerates Jiren. Nothing indicates that UI --> MUI is a 4x gap, which would be required for Full-Power Jiren to even be in consideration to defeat SSJ3 Kefla going by feats. Yeah thats what I said pretty much word for word. What about the bonus fights? 1) Beerus beats down Vegeta after a relatively competitive fight. 2) Tien getting the jump on Buutenks is more than anything Krillin had done in this arc, and despite Krillin having a more varied offensive arsenal, Tri-Beam is simply too much of a game changer to be ignored. Tien in a very back and forth contest. 3) SSJ2 Gohan beats Vegeta's a**. Majin Vegeta only acknowledged SSJ2 Goku was stronger than Gohan when he was set to fight Goku, and his statement was said with confirmation (i.e. He wasn't completely sure if Goku had surpassed Gohan when he burst SSJ2 against Yakon). Non-Majin Vegeta was clearly indicated to be inferior to SSJ2 Goku's burst against Yakon, which would henceforth be at the very most on par with SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell Games, though likely weaker. 4) SSJ Goku takes this.
	"A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them"


PF18	Jun 21 2018, 03:58 AM Post #36
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Vance Jun 21 2018, 03:38 AM PF18 Jun 21 2018, 03:20 AM Vance Jun 21 2018, 02:41 AM SSJ3 Kefla eviscerates Jiren. Nothing indicates that UI --> MUI is a 4x gap, which would be required for Full-Power Jiren to even be in consideration to defeat SSJ3 Kefla going by feats. Yeah thats what I said pretty much word for word. What about the bonus fights? 1) Beerus beats down Vegeta after a relatively competitive fight. 2) Tien getting the jump on Buutenks is more than anything Krillin had done in this arc, and despite Krillin having a more varied offensive arsenal, Tri-Beam is simply too much of a game changer to be ignored. Tien in a very back and forth contest. 3) SSJ2 Gohan beats Vegeta's a**. Majin Vegeta only acknowledged SSJ2 Goku was stronger than Gohan when he was set to fight Goku, and his statement was said with confirmation (i.e. He wasn't completely sure if Goku had surpassed Gohan when he burst SSJ2 against Yakon). Non-Majin Vegeta was clearly indicated to be inferior to SSJ2 Goku's burst against Yakon, which would henceforth be at the very most on par with SSJ2 Gohan during the Cell Games, though likely weaker. 4) SSJ Goku takes this. Any further thoughts as to why SSJ Goku wins the last fight?



+ Pointer	Jun 21 2018, 07:22 AM Post #37
... Posts: 7,062 Group: Elite Member Member #8,812 Joined: January 5, 2013 Gender Male	Relatively competitive fight ? The gap between cssjb vegeta and berrus was greater than the gap between initial beerus and ssj3 goku



Vance	Jun 21 2018, 09:53 AM Post #38
Posts: 326 Group: Member Member #13,910 Joined: June 17, 2017	Pointer Jun 21 2018, 07:22 AM Relatively competitive fight ? The gap between cssjb vegeta and berrus was greater than the gap between initial beerus and ssj3 goku Enlighten me, because I didn't follow DB Super very closely aside from understanding the power scaling. How could SSBE Vegeta (with a rage boost, no less) be under 50% of Beerus, when said Vegeta is on par (if not stronger) than SSBKK x 20 Goku? Not being confrontational, I sincerely want to know how you would demonstrate that. From what I understand, even if you had Beerus at 0.01% vs. SSG Goku during the Battle of Gods arc in DB Super, SSBE Vegeta would still have to be strong enough to at least challenge Beerus, no? Manga SSB Vegeta was outright stated by Beerus to be God-tier prior to the ToP, it escapes me how an even more buffed version of that would fail to be competitive with him.
	"A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them"


Notaka	Jun 21 2018, 10:06 AM Post #39
Always Wright Posts: 4,070 Group: Member Member #10,814 Joined: January 31, 2014 Country Algeria What Browser do you use? Waterfox Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, JoJo no kimyou na bouken, One piece, currently reading Shaman King	Meh, I don't think I have Limit breaker Jiren 4 times SSJ2 Kefla. I'd say, at the very best, he's 1.5x stronger than her. So Kefla stomps here, imo. Quote: Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost) (Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc) Beerus wins, but he'd have to put a decent amount of power in it. 70% should be enough. I want to say Tenshinhan, but Kuririn was confirmed to be the strongest earthling as illogical as it sounds like so I'm going with him. Gohan wins if it's pre majin boost, otherwise Vegeta. Going with SSJ Goku, I think. I'm not to knowledgeable about low tier Super Characters. Edited by Notaka, Jun 21 2018, 10:08 AM.
	*"My name is Kakyoin Noriaki!"* Thanks to Graffiti for the Sig!


PF18	Jun 21 2018, 03:34 PM Post #40
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Pointer Jun 21 2018, 07:22 AM Relatively competitive fight ? The gap between cssjb vegeta and berrus was greater than the gap between initial beerus and ssj3 goku Obviously this is not considering the manga continuity since the question includes SSBE which wasn't in the manga. There's no reason to believe Vegeta couldn't atleast challenge Beerus to some extent



superperfectnerd	Jun 21 2018, 10:01 PM Post #41
Posts: 3,709 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	PF18 Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing Don't imply these ssjg level saiyans are green amateurs in the first place, imply they've been through some s* to make them as strong as they are. Give us something that doesn't completely undermine the lengths Goku and Vegeta have gone through, all the villains in Z and even the god ritual from BOG. Seriously, if Good Boo can train for 2 hours (WITH MR SATAN!!!!!) and be ssjg level, then why did Super Boo bother absorbing Gotenks? Why not just train for half an hour? Edited by superperfectnerd**, Jun 21 2018, 10:04 PM.



PF18	Jun 22 2018, 01:58 AM Post #42
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	superperfectnerd Jun 21 2018, 10:01 PM PF18 Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing Don't imply these ssjg level saiyans are green amateurs in the first place, imply they've been through some s* to make them as strong as they are. Give us something that doesn't completely undermine the lengths Goku and Vegeta have gone through, all the villains in Z and even the god ritual from BOG. Seriously, if Good Boo can train for 2 hours (WITH MR SATAN!!!!!) and be ssjg level, then why did Super Boo bother absorbing Gotenks? Why not just train for half an hour? Let's not get carried away neither Buu nor the Base U6 Saiyans are SSg level in Base.(I would say Caulifla is close though) Base Goku isn't as strong as SSG and when he fought Buu he certainly didn't seem very serious. Buu got a lot stronger but he isn't nearly that strongIt goes: SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>SSG Goku BoG>>Base Goku And cabba falls in that gap between SSG and Base Goku. But yes, their base forms are several magnitudes stronger than Goku and Vegeta were even As SSJ3/SSJ2(their respective highest forms) in the Buu arc. But no, I don't think this is bad writing. They were evolved differently, they have a totally different society, different morals, different temperament, and at the end of the day they are still some of the strongest warriors in their entire Universe. Too many variables involved for it to deemed inconsistent. Why should the strongest of their Universe be so much weaker than our main character's Universe? How should we know if they have been through the s* Goku and Vegeta have been through, we don't know if they went to the same lengths. We just don't know. And it is perfectly plausible for them to have gotten that strong. Besides if they were Buu arc Goku and Vegeta level then it would be boring because they would be completely irrelevant



StrenuousSpider	Jun 23 2018, 02:51 AM Post #43
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	PF18 Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing Lets put it this way. Ssj god >= ssj4 gogeta I know you believe only ssj is god level after so ill use that here. Goku 1 Ssj/god 50 Goku later gets 10x stronger shown when he fought hit. Goku 10 Past ssj/god 50 Then we have goku < black < vegeta. And the gap between vegeta and black here is bigger then one of blacks power ups to the point he was still smashing black. So lets say 4x difference between goku and vegeta here. Well goku catchs up by time TOP. Goku 40 Past ssj/god 50 So now we have a 20% difference between base goku and god from BoG. Well roshi was able to pressure base goku to the point he needed a kamea wave to finish him off. So ill be nice and say roshi is sitting at a 15 to gokus 40 but ill use his god power of 50. Now we have gogeta being dozens of times ssj4 goku and vegeta so at the least 24x Ssj4 goku 2 Ssj4 gogeta 50 Omega 20 Past Ssj/god 50 Base goku ToP 40 Roshi 15 So roshi could vary well kill most of GT. This is not coming from misunderstandings like you claim them to be but feats, showings, and statements from super itself and GT and its guide books for the gogeta stuff. Also it not like when roshi was fighting goku that goku was not serious or somewhat serious about the situation at hand. Goku mentions that roshi has been secretly training so no the magic made him stronger nonsense as goku clearly felt that it was roshis power. You cant even argue that goku was heavely suppressed as if that was the case why not simply finger flick him instead of resorting to a kamea wave when a simple chop to the neck KO is alot less dangerous then a kamea wave. Hell krillian forced goku to turn ssj. Tein survived several hits from Ultimate gohan who is at the vary least god teir ToP which is far above BoG god teir. So the humans at the vary least have been in the past arc or two to not be far behind the base Sayains. Hell that bird dude was said by roshi to be a problem for goku and vegeta if not stopped because he was getting stronger and i find a base to blue power gain less crazy then a billions probably trillions of times stronger in a hour. Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jun 23 2018, 03:07 AM.



StrenuousSpider	Jun 23 2018, 02:57 AM Post #44
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	PF18 Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing Never said they were weak lol. Just said they should be. Vegeta can still vary well mentor cabba regardless if he Is much weaker. Like i said they should have had 17, and Gohan hell even piccolo there level and had them all fight. Goku and vegeta are not the only ones in this story you know. Humans and many others had decent storys without being godly level and having to fight goku. So stop acting like anyone bot haveing anything to do with goku is not useful to the story.



PF18	Jun 23 2018, 08:25 PM Post #45
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	StrenuousSpider Jun 23 2018, 02:57 AM PF18 Jun 21 2018, 02:00 AM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 11:08 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 11:03 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 20 2018, 10:53 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 10:21 PM PF18 Jun 20 2018, 09:30 PM superperfectnerd Jun 20 2018, 09:21 PM Plus Kefla has to have abnormal multipliers to be so strong if ssjg > super Vegetto (at least) Well no not really. The difference SSG makes was diminished. pre-absorption it was an enormous, astronomical boost over SSJ3. post-absorption, It wasn't really implied to be that large of a difference over SSJ3 at all. Going SSJ3 Goku has a slight advantage against Caulifla/Kale then he goes SSG and he has a significant advantage but the boost is clearly nothing like it was when Goku first did the ritual. This is just reinforced when we see that potara yielded a larger boost than SSG, when it was stated otherwise in the BoG arc. Personally, I think things look like this: Pre-ritual Goku Base-1 SSJ-50 SSJ2-100 SSJ3-400 SSG-8,000,000 Post-ritual Goku Base: 180,000 SSJ: 9,000,000 SSJ2: 18,000,000 SSJ3: 72,000,000 SSG: 144,000,000 So the boost from SSJ3->SSG went from 20,000 SSJ3 down to 2x SSJ3 after he absorbed the power But then the uni 6 saiyans are ssjg level with no ritual or angel training... and no ssj either? (Before Goku and Vegeta) How are Goku and Vegeta treated like veteran, experienced saiyans when 2 years prior Cabba could have sneezed in base and wiped out universe 7 whilst Goku was fannying around on King Kai's planet with his base weaker than Freeza? Thats what we call bad writing and PIS. I don't really think it is an example of bad writing. Let's say that they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc. AKA they are strong as Goku and Vegeta would be without angel training or the ritual. But then they would be completely useless fodder. Do you think them being useless fodder would be better writing?? Id say yes it would be better. Or at the vary least dont make them out to be some kind of inexperienced unknowable t*s that dont even know about ssj. Give them at least ssj3 you could have them be the teir that gohan,17,buu should all be while having someone like Hit and a new character be the god teirs. The humans are fodder but they still had there time to shine so the fodder argument you are trying to make is not a excuse for bad writing. This bad writing has made roshi a monster that can b* slap GT. The comment about Roshi is just objectively false and can only be concluded based on a series of misinterpretations. Let's just make Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale around the same strength as Goku and Vegeta from the Buu arc. So what Kale gets her Berserker form and Goku one shots her in base? They fuse and they give base Goku a tough run and then he goes SSJ and one shots them? If they are so weak to be inconsequential that cannot possibly make for them being an interesting part of the story. Vegeta mentors somebody who is unfathomably weak compared to him just to be nice? No. He matched Vegeta in Base and Vegeta was very impressed with that. If Vegeta isn't impressed then they don't form a relationship there. Goku wouldn't enjoy fighting Caulifla because he likes fighting strong opponents on his level. I just don't think Cabba/Kale/Caulifla being super strong is an example of bad writing Never said they were weak lol. Just said they should be. Vegeta can still vary well mentor cabba regardless if he Is much weaker. Like i said they should have had 17, and Gohan hell even piccolo there level and had them all fight. Goku and vegeta are not the only ones in this story you know. Humans and many others had decent storys without being godly level and having to fight goku. So stop acting like anyone bot haveing anything to do with goku is not useful to the story. The discussion was about if they were as strong as Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc. By DBS standards that is extremely weak and would make them completely irrelevant. I never said that you thought they were weak and I recognize that you said that they should have been weak rather than being as strong as they were. Vegeta mentoring Cabba stemmed from being impressed that Cabba could match him in the initial bout when they were both in base. He is fascinated by Cabba's strength without having learned SSJ yet and he mentors him and gives him a more challenging fight. Otherwise, Vegeta would have one shot Cabba and it would have been pointless for Cabba to go SSJ because Vegeta would one shot him then too. Since when is it bad writing for the current antagonists to be stronger than the previous ones? Was it bad writing that Nappa was stronger than Piccolo Daimao?? If Cabba was weaker than Buu it wouldn't follow the narrative that the entire story had established throughout the entire franchise and Cabba would be a useless character not worth a challenge for Goku and Vegeta in their current state. Edited by PF18, Jun 23 2018, 08:27 PM.



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