If you are a Freeza > base Saiyajin supporter...

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If you are a Freeza > base Saiyajin supporter...
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 8 2018, 08:54 AM (2,464 Views)
superperfectnerd	Jun 8 2018, 09:04 PM Post #31
Posts: 3,709 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	But then Super has made base saiyans < Freeza So it goes Cell Games (scaling makes sense) - Boo saga (scaling doesn't make sense) - BOG (scaling back to Cell Games implications) Isn't the base saiyans' standing in the Boo saga the minority which is out of whack?



ahill1	Jun 8 2018, 09:30 PM Post #32
Posts: 759 Group: Member Member #12,438 Joined: June 29, 2015 Gender Not Specified Country Egypt Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? the best Favourite Manga HxH	I'd like to see base Saiyajins > Piccolo working out numerically.



+ Son-Goku	Jun 8 2018, 09:31 PM Post #33
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	ahill1 Jun 8 2018, 09:30 PM I'd like to see base Saiyajins > Piccolo working out numerically. It can't work, not if you try to make it consistent with the rest of the series.
	RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power


Vance	Jun 8 2018, 09:42 PM Post #34
Posts: 326 Group: Member Member #13,910 Joined: June 17, 2017	Base Saiyans > Piccolo can only work if you assume Piccolo's grown exponentially weaker over the course of 7 years, something which had never been actually referenced. Considering that Android saga Piccolo was noted to be on par with a Super Saiyan (per Krillin), the idea that he'd ever get so low as below 150,000,000 just seems impossible.
	"A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them"


Thiln	Jun 8 2018, 09:51 PM Post #35
Posts: 2,481 Group: Member Member #12,166 Joined: March 23, 2015 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball, Attack on Titan What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Hokuto no Ken, Berserk, Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, Attack on Titan, Kuroshitsuji	Here's a paraphrase from another post I personally made a few months back regarding the Babidi sensing debacle... "All the Z-fighters were suppressed at the time of Babidi and Dabura's conversation. It's not like everyone was lighting themselves up for the Majin group to pick & choose who gets to be pitted against the minions and who gets to be turned to stone like some bizarre modeling contest." I feel this is still applicable now. All three of the Saiyans were heavily suppressed because the intention at the time was to conceal their presence. During the Namek arc, this same tactic was employed by Krillin and Gohan in order to avoid detection. Interestingly, it worked better then in relation to now. Babidi and his ilk represent a smorgasbords of contradictions which made it difficult to reconcile the information we're given like the fact the Saiyans, without knowing about their transformations, can apparently exploited to empower half of Buu's full strength at the hands of their namby-pamby grunt man, Pui-Pui. What, did Babidi and Dabura just not know about their own minion's capabilities? It's ridiculous. If you're going to bring up Super then the relative interactive performance against Frost should be acknowledged. Both times a Saiyan went up against Frost in the U6 tournament, they elected to transform in order to fight him - both times they held an overwhelming advantage. Piccolo was on the losing end of his fight against his exhausted opponent but he could still muster a good resistance. To me, the implication seems to be that Piccolo was closer to the Super Saiyans than he was their base states. Keep in mind, this is after years of intense training following the Buu arc, including Whis' regimen (for the Saiyans). Edited by Thiln, Jun 8 2018, 09:52 PM.



Topographic Oceans	Jun 8 2018, 10:12 PM Post #36
Posts: 1,788 Group: Member Member #10,681 Joined: January 5, 2014 Gender Male Favourite Anime Action Comics Favourite Manga Detective Comics	Regarding Piccolo... the way I see it, it's pretty simple: Piccolo (Cell Games) > base Saiyans Piccolo (Boo arc) < base Saiyans It's can't be "worked out numerically" because it's a plot hole, an inconsistency between what was stated in one arc and what was heavily implied in the next. As far as plot holes go, this one isn't that problematic as it barely affects the narrative. Piccolo doesn't do much in the Boo arc other than serve as Gotenks' comedic foil, a role he could fulfill regardless of wheter or not he's stronger than the Saiyans. It's only a major problem if you fret over numbers and Battle Powers (which I suppose we all do to an extent if we post here), in which case, the common headcanons/workarounds I mentioned previously (Vegeta was just being arrogant and Piccolo threw the match out of respect) can sort of "fix" the issue. I'm not a fan of this kind of workaround but those aren't that bad. (inb4 someone "works it out numerically" in a way that makes sense) Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jun 8 2018, 10:14 PM.
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Dankness Lava	Jun 8 2018, 10:18 PM Post #37
Dankness Forever Posts: 6,348 Group: Tha Dankness Member #9,197 Joined: March 16, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Hajime no Ippo What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Piece	Out of curiosity, can someone link the manga page showing exactly what Vegeta said? Edited by Dankness Lava, Jun 8 2018, 10:18 PM.



Topographic Oceans	Jun 8 2018, 10:22 PM Post #38
Posts: 1,788 Group: Member Member #10,681 Joined: January 5, 2014 Gender Male Favourite Anime Action Comics Favourite Manga Detective Comics	It's in the OP.
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+ Pointer	Jun 8 2018, 10:52 PM Post #39
... Posts: 7,062 Group: Elite Member Member #8,812 Joined: January 5, 2013 Gender Male	Notaka Jun 8 2018, 05:42 PM Pointer Jun 8 2018, 05:28 PM 18 case was very well the opposite. She underestimated the boys and i am sure if the attack hit her she would have lost the match. Gohan said goten isnt far from him thus ssj goten must be very well between assj vegeta against cell and mssj goku I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Well even if she underestimated them, then that means she didn't even use her full power against her, right ? Since that's what underestimating someone means in DBZ. If she wasn't at full strength this makes the kids even weaker. Also which attack are you talking about? They were fighting for a brief moment, in which she slammed them to the ground and then they get back up and turn SSJ. If you mean the powered up attack from them then yes she'd lose if it hit her. @Topographic oceans The statement is still there, even if it was a retcon. The case for Base Saiyans > Freeza relies on implications about statements/feats which can be seen differently. Maybe you see this particular feat/word as definite proof, but I could still twist and it'll still make sense with the manga. Meanwhile Beerus' quote isn't something you can twist. You have his first quote, I guess you could say Goku was suppressed even though nothing tells me he would be, but you have Beerus saying how he's able to see Goku defeating Frieza after he transformed into a Super Saiyan and actually fought against him. SSJ Goku can't come over weaker than his base form, Goku would need to reach his base form's limit and then overcome it via SSJ. Really, when you look at it, Beerus' quote doesn't contradict Z if you see from another angle. The base saiyans barely fought after they got SSJ, and we're left on feats/statements, which like I said, could be interpreted otherwise. Well we all know for sure that the kids arent that far from vegeta and goku i mean in base. If goku was 10 then trunks certainly 4 thus if we see the nornal ssj which means the ssj of goku for example . We all know he isnt perfext cell tier but certainly stronger than gohan was baxk in cell games as ssj that means 40 percent of the power of kid gohan from cell games ( ssj only ) is the power whixh kid trunks had ( raw assumption) We also all know that the gap between cg vegeta and goku( cg) is about Goku ssj cg 6 Vegeta ssj cg ( stronger than 50 perfect cg goku but weaker than 100 ) lets say 4 We also know thag pre second rosat vegeta tend to be weaker by a huge margin than 50 percent xg goku whixh means Maybe 1.5 and thats assj vegeta So if buu arc goku was 10 in ssj and if trunks was 4 in ssj and if vegeta assj was 1.5 pre cell games. We can kindly make some maths Base vegeta buu arc is roughly 0.2 if we go by the maths whixh means about 7 times weaker thab his pre cell games assj Overall. Base buu arc vegeta should be about 7 times weaker than his assj pre cell games self Now it depends on the fact if you have this gap great enough to fill the difference between frieza and assj vegeta . If not well we have a problem



Notaka	Jun 8 2018, 10:56 PM Post #40
Always Wright Posts: 4,070 Group: Member Member #10,814 Joined: January 31, 2014 Country Algeria What Browser do you use? Waterfox Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, JoJo no kimyou na bouken, One piece, currently reading Shaman King	ahill1 Jun 8 2018, 08:28 PM Notaka Jun 8 2018, 09:21 AM We've debated this to death but let's go: I am aware, but I am still interested in the debate. Anyway, thank you for your counters and for your time. My bad. Sorry if I came across as rude, it's because the last heated debate about it wasn't too long ago. @Pointer: This is what my powerlevels are like: SSJ Vegeta(After 1st rosat):1,000,000,000 -ASSJ Vegeta(after 1st Rosat):1,250,000,000 SSJ Goku(Cell games):3,000,000,000 -50% power:1,500,000,000 SSJ Vegeta(Cell Games):1,800,000,000 -ASSJ Vegeta(Cell games):2,250,000,000 SSJ Gohan(Cell Games):3,250,000,000 SSJ Goku(Buu Saga):3,500,000,000 -Base Goku:70,000,000 SSJ Vegeta(Buu Saga):2,750,000,000 -Base Vegeta:55,000,000 SSJ Gohan(Buu Saga):2,400,000,000 -Base Gohan:48,000,000 The kids are around 40-45 millions, I have 38 millions for Goten and 40 millions for Trunks, both are 45 million after the rosat. So IMO, it takes until the rosat for the kids to surpass Piccolo, while using SSJ. The series work fine for me even with the base Saiyans being weaker than Frieza. Some gaps might seem too small, but the series isn't consistent about it. Frieza is 10 times weaker than Vegeta after his 1st rosat but Base Vegeta from the Buu saga is more than twenty times weaker. Edited by Notaka, Jun 8 2018, 11:08 PM.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jun 8 2018, 11:46 PM Post #41
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	I'm just jumping into this, so forgive me if all of this has been addressed. Regarding Vegeta's confidence, it's definitely a road block. You could argue Vegeta's only taking the other Saiyans into account, but there's always a possibility he'll be matched up with No. 18 or Piccolo before Goku, so there is a problem. You could argue that Vegeta could go Super Saiyan for an instant and knock No. 18 or Piccolo out of bounds though. It's a cop out, but that's definitely possible. As for Kaioshin stating the Kaioshin could easily defeat Freeza, I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. The entire point of that exchange is to establish that the Kaioshin, and more importantly, Boo are really really strong. What's more, Goku is actually taken back by what Kaioshin says, so I think it's fair to say Freeza is still a worthy measuring stick. Regarding Bobbidi's henchmen, like Thiln pointed out, Bobbidi's henchmen cannot be sensed. Kaioshin only has the reputation to go on, which isn't terribly reliable it seems. He thought Pui Pui was hot s* because Bobbidi recruited him, but he was li'l b*. To expand further on this point, Kaioshin says this after Goku kills Yakon. Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5 Context: after Goku kills Yakon Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…” Kaioshin only seems to be surpassed by Super Saiyan. Finally, regarding Goten and Trunks, you could easily argue No. 18 isn't going all out. It was established earlier that No. 18 struggles to control her power, so she may not be able to just go for a finishing blow without the risking of killing her opponent. If nothing else, No. 18 isn't totally put off by Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan at first. Only after seeing their power does she freak out.
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+ Son-Goku	Jun 9 2018, 12:04 AM Post #42
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	Dankness Lava Jun 8 2018, 10:18 PM Out of curiosity, can someone link the manga page showing exactly what Vegeta said?
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Dankness Lava	Jun 9 2018, 02:25 AM Post #43
Dankness Forever Posts: 6,348 Group: Tha Dankness Member #9,197 Joined: March 16, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Hajime no Ippo What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Piece	Did Vegeta know Goku was alive when he said what he said?



+ Son-Goku	Jun 9 2018, 02:44 AM Post #44
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	Dankness Lava Jun 9 2018, 02:25 AM Did Vegeta know Goku was alive when he said what he said? Yes, it was on their way to the tournament.
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+ Emmeth	Jun 9 2018, 02:51 AM Post #45
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	There's just a whole lot of assumptions no matter what side you support. None of them are clearer than the other, especially considering Beerus' quote in BoG. You can dismiss Vegeta's comment before the tournament or you can dismiss Beerus' comment about Base Goku. Either way, they have a transformation called Super Saiyan that surpasses almost every single important character up to the Cell arc, Piccolo included.
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