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| If you are a Freeza > base Saiyajin supporter... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 8 2018, 08:54 AM (2,460 Views) | |
| ahill1 | Jun 8 2018, 08:54 AM Post #1 |
 
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Then could you counter this, point by point? I am only interested in the counters. Vegeta accepted to fight in the tournament in base, saying he'll still have the upper hand and #18 was there. No reason for him to not include her, specially when she was in the spaceship when Vegeta agreed.  Later, Kaioshin stated every one of them could defeat Freeza with one blow, pretty much treating him as garbage:  Yet later he was completely flabbergasted by base Vegeta's power, saying he never dreamed they [the Saiyans] were this powerful. I don't think it makes sense if base Vegeta < Freeza.  And later we have base Goten and Trunks, while in a costume, not doing so bad against #18, getting up like nothing after being punched in the ground:  So... any supporter interested? |
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| ahill1 | Jun 8 2018, 08:55 AM Post #2 |
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Damn, was supposed to post it in the discussion forum. Sorry. |
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| Notaka | Jun 8 2018, 09:21 AM Post #3 |
Always Wright
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We've debated this to death but let's go: 1) Vegeta's quote is just another product of his overconfidence. The statement goes completely false when Goku is still shown to be superior to him, when he evidently meant everyone. Even if you want to overlook this, there's still 18's confidence in winning the prize money. One has confidence that he still is stronger than everyone no matter of what handicap, the other thinks she could win the tournament and get the prize money. So either of them must be wrong then, and I'd go with the guy who's been wrong times and times again to the point it's a character flaw. The former is false, but the latter was never shown to be false later on. Just let me ask this, why is that quote treated like definite proof, when it's proven to be false later on and comes from a character whose one of many flaws is his terrible strength gauging and overconfidence in his own strength? It's full of holes, tbh. 2)Kaioshin does say they're strong but he never said they were stronger than him. If they aren't stronger than him then this point wouldn't be enough basis for Base Saiyans > Frieza. He's flabbergasted at the fact that they're really strong despite being mortals, but that's about it. The fact that Frieza is brought up in the buu saga, and have Goku amazed at someone who can kill him in one blow wouldn't make sense if the Saiyans were even 18's level, let alone Piccolo's. If you want to look from an outside view, The guidebooks state that a kili equals to 50,000 BP, so none of Babidi's mooks are actually stronger than Frieza save Dabura, and that Goku still needs Super Saiyan to reach his Namek Saga self; that being at the 150 million mark. It flat out makes no sense for him to power up and turn into an SSJ only to be weaker than his base form. 3) 18 vs Kids fight just is ambiguous. For one, we can't tell if both parties are fighting at their best, and even if we assume they did, the fight wasn't even; The kids were just getting pummeled into the grounds again and again. then they feel the need to turn into a Super Saiyan, and be fairly confident that 18 could handle a suppressed blast from them. The fight clearly showed that 18 had the advantage just by the fact they needed Super Saiyan. If this is the case then: SSJ Kids > 18 > Kids, and by then the kids doesn't have to be stronger than Frieza in base. They could be like a quart of his level but still become way stronger than 18 is via turning Super Saiyan. A lot of the facts on the manga could be interpreted otherwise, whereas Super gave a clear cut statement. Maybe from a manga puritan POV, I'd agree the Saiyans would be stronger, but when you factor other sources, it isn't the case; You have guidebooks and a clear statements as opposed to some implications and deducing. Edited by Notaka, Jun 8 2018, 09:24 AM.
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| + Pointer | Jun 8 2018, 09:34 AM Post #4 |
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Wait what ? So the general consensus here is that the base saiyans are WEAKER than frieza ? What ? And you place your assumtion on what ? Beerus line ? You know goku was very very well suppressed like hell. And beerus s line could have been a mere mockery Besides you really use a broken ki measurement as reference ? Just sum it up for me would you. The reasons why the saiyans are weaker than frieza in base . Op listed everything. Actual evidences which suggest that the base saiyans are stronger than frieza. What do you have as counter ? Beerus s line ? Cmon |
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| Notaka | Jun 8 2018, 09:51 AM Post #5 |
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Always Wright
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There's no GENERAL consensus. Either you're on one side or the opposite. It just happens that I believe in Frieza still being stronger. Nothing wrong with that, right?
Nothing tells me he was suppressed when Beerus checked him out, and you still have Beerus' quote about how he saw Goku is able to defeat Frieza after transforming into a Super Saiyan and fighting him for a bit. I'd go into details if you'd like. Vegeta isn't exempt from error, especially when there's full of holes in his quote like the ones I've pointed. And his quote could just be his overconfidence showing as always, if you want to play this game.
1) It's not broken 2) And yes, I'll use it because it contradicts nothing in the series. It's relevant to this debate therefore I'll use it.
Because it's a load of bull**** that relies on deductions based on facts that are ambiguous and which can easily be interpreted otherwise. Meanwhile, Beerus' quote and the fact nobody argues with him has never been contested and is clear-cut.
An actual evidence would be a clear statement, not these implications. Literally the only time the base saiyans and Freeza were mentioned in the same sentence has Frieza as the superior one. Why do you treat Beerus as unreliable but take Vegeta's quote for granted, despite him being times and times wrong? It's hypocritical. Edited by Notaka, Jun 8 2018, 09:55 AM.
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| Topographic Oceans | Jun 8 2018, 01:28 PM Post #6 |
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Not to mention that Shin suggested that they all fight Yakon together, and that was after witnessing Vegeta easily trounce Pui-Pui. He seemingly knew Yakon by reputation, too. Goku proceeds to fight by himself and dominates Yakon even in pitch-black darkness, turning into a Super Saiyan only to show that he had a way of lightening up the room. Even if you take Gohan's seemingly contradictory "Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!" statement into consideration, it would still show that two base Saiyans in an unfamiliar environment > Yakon in his natural habitat. Dabura, who also watched Vegeta vs Pui-Pui, stated before the Yakon fight that Yakon would be able to easily dispose of everyone there even without moving them to the "Dark Planet". Not only does that all suggest that Vegeta's showing, the one that strongly impressed Shin, was him only using a fraction of his power, but that Yakon >>> Shin. Meaning that, if you believe Goku was stronger than Yakon or at least on a similar level and that Dabura's assertion that Yakon would easily deal with all of them based on what he had seen of Vegeta's power was correct, we would have: Base Goku >/~ Yakon >> Shin + Three base Saiyans fighting with the same level of power that an effortless base Vegeta used against Pui-Pui >>> base Vegeta (effortless) >> Pui-Pui If you believe Dabura was wrong and that Shin's idea of fighting together would be effective (which is more likely), and also that Yakon is slightly stronger than base Goku and that it would take two base Saiyans to defeat him in pitch-black darkness, Shin still comes out looking like a chump: Two base Saiyans (putting some effort into it) ~ Shin + Three base Saiyans fighting with the same level of power that an effortless Vegeta used against Pui-Pui >> Yakon >>> base Vegeta (effortless) >> Pui-Pui Not to mention that Shin being all worried ("You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!") because of opponents supposedely much weaker than him doesn't make sense, both in and out-of-universe. Why include that if Shin is actually much stronger than those guys? Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jun 8 2018, 01:47 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jun 8 2018, 04:14 PM Post #7 |
 
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Vegeta is an idiot. What he says doesn't matter unless it's backed up by several other characters, the guidebooks, and Akira Toriyama himself.
He meant 1st Form Freeza.
He's an idiot. Whatever he says in Babidi's ship should be taken with a grain of toilet paper. Same with Dabura.
She was suppressed to above average human level (since that's what she thought Mighty Mask was at first), like 21st World Martial Arts Tournament level. That lines up with the kids being strong for kids, but not threatening the level of the actual battle-hardened warriors. Even after the kids turned Super Saiyan and she figured it out, she wasn't worried until they displayed reckless behavior. She had to eliminate them immediately, and she did. There's no evidence Goten and Trunks—even as Super Saiyans—are approaching Android Saga tier. This is especially apparent if their fathers, who are multiple times stronger, still haven't gotten Freeza without transformations. I wager you're fully satisfied now, ahill. There isn't a single valid proof on the opposing side. Edited by Pyrus, Jun 8 2018, 04:16 PM.
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| Thiln | Jun 8 2018, 04:38 PM Post #8 |
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Could Babidi's warriors even be sensed? I don't particularly recall anyone ever registering a signature. If the warriors could be registered then Shin wouldn't have needed to devise his strategy for shadowing Spopovich and Yamu. In fairness, you could dispute that Pui-Pui and Yakon were suppressed, but why would Babidi endeavour to do so? He's one of the most egotistical villains in the entire arc. Moreover, he was hoping to have a confrontation with Shin in order to avenge his father; suggesting that he wouldn't necessarily take every precaution imaginable. You then have this rare gem of a conversation from the individuals conspiring to resurrect Buu while determining who's "worthy" for providing energy and who isn't (referenced on Kanezenshuu)... Spoiler: click to toggle Surely there's something amiss with this assessment of Dabura's - three Base Saiyans' power compensating for a resurrectional need equivalent to a Super Saiyan 2's power? No matter how inflated you may think the Base Saiyans' power grew, there's no way that they could possess strength that's minimally 1/3rd of an SSJ2's. It's made doubly foolish when Babidi agrees with him. Apparently they think Pui-Pui has what it takes to handle three fighters with enough energy to fill half of Buu's cocoon. If that's the case then Shin has every reason to fret over the Saiyans not taking the situation seriously. |
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| GreatSaiyaman123 | Jun 8 2018, 04:41 PM Post #9 |
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Honestly, everything on the Spaceship implies Kaioshin is weaker than Base Saiyans. It's one of those things that's very obvious from the start IMO. Kaioshin's behavior, Babidi's confidence, even the volume cover kind of portrays Kaioshin as inferior to them. Also, don't forget this, Ahill: Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…” Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…” Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.” Piccolo gets lumped with Kuririn as trash, while Base Saiyans are marvelous energy. That's before they even realize the full extension of the Base Saiyan's power, as they thought Pocus would at worst have "Some trouble" with the Base Saiyans: Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P4.6 Context: talking about facing Vegeta alone. Pui-Pui: “Fuhihihihi…Lord Babidi told me to be careful since these guys have strong energy, but it looks like they’re just a bunch of morons…” Note to how Babidi told Pocus to be careful with the Saiyans, but completely glosses over Kaioshin. |
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| Topographic Oceans | Jun 8 2018, 04:41 PM Post #10 |
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People who can't be trusted because they are arrogant and/or stupid: Vegeta, Shin, Dabura, Goku, Gohan. People who are extremely intelligent and trustworthy: Billis. |
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| + Son-Goku | Jun 8 2018, 04:55 PM Post #11 |
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This has nothing to do with their base forms. Keep in mind that the energy absorbed from Gohan before was his power as a Super Saiyan 2. That power is being taken into consideration, it doesn't imply in the slightest that they're above the others in their base form. Once again, Pui Pui's line doesn't indicate anything to do with their base forms. Using that Vegeta could beat him in his base form is better, evidence but this quote isn't. Edited by Son-Goku, Jun 8 2018, 04:57 PM.
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| + Pointer | Jun 8 2018, 05:08 PM Post #12 |
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It is not just vegeta s word which is being taken as granted. Rather the vast number of evidences which prove your theory otherwise 1 vegeta being confident winning the tournament easily even assuming he is above goku. 2 goten and trunks did relatively well against android 18 who is massively above frieza. Yes they were weaker than 18 without the ssj but not that much weaker to be completely hiopeless. 3. Kaioshin s*** himself in terror when he witnessed vegeta against pui pui in base. Before thaz he flatout stated that kaioshin >> frieza. From that amazement wr have to say base vegeta > kaioshin or he was simply amazed by the power of base vegeta ? Then why he s*** himself on terror against pui pui. If both of them are weaker tha feieza and if kaioshin is above frieza ? Why was he scared ? 4. Babidi and dabura s line : so that only the saiyans power which matters. Its a huge bet but that means the saiyans are above kaioshin and piccolo ? So i have certainly not only vegeta s line but rather a lot of things. |
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| Notaka | Jun 8 2018, 05:23 PM Post #13 |
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And that's where my problem with this quote starts: He assumes he's above Goku when he has no idea how strong Goku could have gotten, nor Piccolo or 18 for that matter. Tell me, how is this any different from assuming he's still above Cell and Frieza when they transformed? We all know how those fights turned out for him. And then there's 18's confidence in winning the prize money. Maybe she could bargain against People stronger than her (like Piccolo) to lose against her, but the Saiyans except Gohan won't step down without a fight, and she knows that. I'd rather take the overconfident guy just overestimating himself than 18 being a moron.
Relatively well? Is that what you call getting pounded in the ground? I guess Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan was one of the most even fights, then. And then you have the kids needing to go Super Saiyan, multiplying their powers many folds, and be fairly confident that she could handle a blast for them. And this is only assuming 18 was at full strength, she could have very well be hiding her full strength due to the no killing rule of the tournament.
Those could be interpreted otherwise: He's amazed about Vegeta's strength. Point blank. And also, it's easy to be scared when the tiniest of damage could revive your worst nightmare; He's, if anything, wary. And Thiln brings an excellent point, why do we assume that Kaioshin knows how strong Babidi's fighter were? He very well couldn't know, and just decided to be precautious.
Judging from Thiln's quote: Dabura is confident that the base Saiyans are enough to fill something you need an SSJ2 to do? Maybe Dabura is just like Vegeta, poor at judging strength. But then we know he's wrong because it took SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta fighting to revive Buu, so. I don't get it, you'd rather take implications and guesses about facts which can easily be interpreted and twisted otherwise as opposed to clear statement that hasn't been contradicted later on? |
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| + Pointer | Jun 8 2018, 05:28 PM Post #14 |
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18 case was very well the opposite. She underestimated the boys and i am sure if the attack hit her she would have lost the match. Gohan said goten isnt far from him thus ssj goten must be very well between assj vegeta against cell and mssj goku |
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| Topographic Oceans | Jun 8 2018, 05:29 PM Post #15 |
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The main problem with Freeza > base Saiyans (other than it relying on a statement that seems more like an unintentional retcon than anything else) is that, even though some of the arguments in favor of that viewpoint aren't entire implausible, they all require workarounds, reinterpretations of key scenes and all sorts of logic malabarisms to justify why scenes with obvious, clear-cut implications don't actually mean what they apparently mean. |
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