Vegeta (Super) vs Majin Boo Arc

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Vegeta (Super) vs Majin Boo Arc
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 2 2018, 04:59 PM (2,405 Views)
StrenuousSpider	Jun 8 2018, 03:00 PM Post #61
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	PF18 Jun 8 2018, 12:52 AM Pyrus Jun 7 2018, 09:47 PM Manga-wise, Rose is definitely supposed to be the gods' equivalent to Blue. Ch. 20, pg. 18.4-19.1 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu: “This is…amazing!! So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!” This is far more explicit than anything in the anime. In the anime the best we can conclude is that they are similar transformations. To deduce it has an identical multiplier is pure speculation and would throw the power scale into a loop. It may work in the manga, but the manga is completely different. In the manga it makes more sense too because Black achieved the "normal" SSJ transformation. So it only makes sense that he can progress to the divine version of SSJ. However, in the anime Rose is the only transformation in Black's arsenal and so it is harder to conclude that is a strict equivalent to SSB in terms of a multipler. Manga vs anime is fair when talking about power level or story elements. It dose not work however when you try and pass off rose being blues equal only in manga when they are the same form. Its either one or the other. And since its possible for it to be only one they are equal in both anime and manga. Information we don't get in anime we can find in manga simple as that. again excluding story telling and power but forms and information both have but one goes further into detail is fair game. Example jiren being above belmond, ssj rose, potentially we may get more info on Evolution and Ultra Instinct. Dose that make the information wrong no it dose not.



PF18	Jun 8 2018, 03:43 PM Post #62
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	StrenuousSpider Jun 8 2018, 03:00 PM PF18 Jun 8 2018, 12:52 AM Pyrus Jun 7 2018, 09:47 PM Manga-wise, Rose is definitely supposed to be the gods' equivalent to Blue. Ch. 20, pg. 18.4-19.1 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu: “This is…amazing!! So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!” This is far more explicit than anything in the anime. In the anime the best we can conclude is that they are similar transformations. To deduce it has an identical multiplier is pure speculation and would throw the power scale into a loop. It may work in the manga, but the manga is completely different. In the manga it makes more sense too because Black achieved the "normal" SSJ transformation. So it only makes sense that he can progress to the divine version of SSJ. However, in the anime Rose is the only transformation in Black's arsenal and so it is harder to conclude that is a strict equivalent to SSB in terms of a multipler. Manga vs anime is fair when talking about power level or story elements. It dose not work however when you try and pass off rose being blues equal only in manga when they are the same form. Its either one or the other. And since its possible for it to be only one they are equal in both anime and manga. Information we don't get in anime we can find in manga simple as that. again excluding story telling and power but forms and information both have but one goes further into detail is fair game. Example jiren being above belmond, ssj rose, potentially we may get more info on Evolution and Ultra Instinct. Dose that make the information wrong no it dose not. trying to "mix and match" almost never makes any sense since they are so different. If you apply the "Mortal who is stronger than their GoD" thing to the manga, since in the manga Quitela beat Beerus in the arm wrestle, from the anime then it appears that there is somebody in Universe 4 who is stronger than their GoD but that is just ridiculous.



StrenuousSpider	Jun 8 2018, 03:55 PM Post #63
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	PF18 Jun 8 2018, 03:43 PM StrenuousSpider Jun 8 2018, 03:00 PM PF18 Jun 8 2018, 12:52 AM Pyrus Jun 7 2018, 09:47 PM Manga-wise, Rose is definitely supposed to be the gods' equivalent to Blue. Ch. 20, pg. 18.4-19.1 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu: “This is…amazing!! So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!” This is far more explicit than anything in the anime. In the anime the best we can conclude is that they are similar transformations. To deduce it has an identical multiplier is pure speculation and would throw the power scale into a loop. It may work in the manga, but the manga is completely different. In the manga it makes more sense too because Black achieved the "normal" SSJ transformation. So it only makes sense that he can progress to the divine version of SSJ. However, in the anime Rose is the only transformation in Black's arsenal and so it is harder to conclude that is a strict equivalent to SSB in terms of a multipler. Manga vs anime is fair when talking about power level or story elements. It dose not work however when you try and pass off rose being blues equal only in manga when they are the same form. Its either one or the other. And since its possible for it to be only one they are equal in both anime and manga. Information we don't get in anime we can find in manga simple as that. again excluding story telling and power but forms and information both have but one goes further into detail is fair game. Example jiren being above belmond, ssj rose, potentially we may get more info on Evolution and Ultra Instinct. Dose that make the information wrong no it dose not. trying to "mix and match" almost never makes any sense since they are so different. If you apply the "Mortal who is stronger than their GoD" thing to the manga, since in the manga Quitela beat Beerus in the arm wrestle, from the anime then it appears that there is somebody in Universe 4 who is stronger than their GoD but that is just ridiculous. Im not saying that it is always the case. There aee several people on this form that would argue what whis ment when talking about the god and mortal. However jist because somethings may not line up and again that is more towards story then it is explaining a form which is the case here. You cant say that they are different in manga and anime when is made clear they are the same form in both. So we have more info on that form that dose not contradict anything in anime and vice verse like the story element you are useing to try a directed something thats really not related to the story much at all.



superperfectnerd	Jun 10 2018, 07:51 PM Post #64
Posts: 3,709 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	It makes even less sense in the manga without god ki enhanced forms which look identical. Ssj2 Goku < ssj2 Trunks < base Black <<<<<<< ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta? Anime is cleaner, Black is using saiyan beyond god and ssjr (ssjb) and is just stronger in those forms which is why he gives a suppressed ssjb Vegeta some initial trouble in simple 'saiyan beyond god' but he's not giving ssjb Vegeta trouble in regular old base, Black has the soul of a kai, he cannot turn off 'saiyan beyond god' like Goku and Vegeta can. Which is why to Trunks it appears he can't even touch a base saiyan in ssj2 but Black isn't a base saiyan, he's actually using a much 'higher form' than Trunks. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jun 10 2018, 07:56 PM.



PF18	Jun 10 2018, 10:48 PM Post #65
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	superperfectnerd Jun 10 2018, 07:51 PM It makes even less sense in the manga without god ki enhanced forms which look identical. Ssj2 Goku < ssj2 Trunks < base Black <<<<<<< ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta? Anime is cleaner, Black is using saiyan beyond god and ssjr (ssjb) and is just stronger in those forms which is why he gives a suppressed ssjb Vegeta some initial trouble in simple 'saiyan beyond god' but he's not giving ssjb Vegeta trouble in regular old base, Black has the soul of a kai, he cannot turn off 'saiyan beyond god' like Goku and Vegeta can. Which is why to Trunks it appears he can't even touch a base saiyan in ssj2 but Black isn't a base saiyan, he's actually using a much 'higher form' than Trunks. Yes the manga doesn't make much sense as usual. The anime is not "cleaner" becasue you rationalize it away as "Saiyan Beyond God" Which is a concept only in the movies. If there was a "Saiyan Beyond God" that Black was using he would have completely dominated everybody who wasn't in a God form. Goku in SSJ2 wouldn't have stood a chance against a form superior to SSG. Black's power is just structured completely differently. His body is still "fresh" and so he gets more use out of the Saiyan traits like zenkais and gaining power during battle. He has a super strong base and his own transformation. His transformation wouldn't make any sense to be of the same strength as Goku/Vegeta's even though it does look kind of similar. There's quite literally no evidence that Goku and Vegeta have an "On/Off" switch on their base to make it ridiculously more powerful. If that were the case, like "Saiyan Beyond God" worked in the movie, they utilized God Ki in their base form. This is not the case in DBS so a "Saiyan Beyond God" does not exist. Straying a little too far off the topic. Vegeta beats anything in DBZ with no difficulty in his base form.



+ Son-Goku	Jun 10 2018, 11:02 PM Post #66
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	superperfectnerd Jun 10 2018, 07:51 PM It makes even less sense in the manga without god ki enhanced forms which look identical. Ssj2 Goku < ssj2 Trunks < base Black <<<<<<< ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta? Anime is cleaner, Black is using saiyan beyond god and ssjr (ssjb) and is just stronger in those forms which is why he gives a suppressed ssjb Vegeta some initial trouble in simple 'saiyan beyond god' but he's not giving ssjb Vegeta trouble in regular old base, Black has the soul of a kai, he cannot turn off 'saiyan beyond god' like Goku and Vegeta can. Which is why to Trunks it appears he can't even touch a base saiyan in ssj2 but Black isn't a base saiyan, he's actually using a much 'higher form' than Trunks. That's only if you believe that's a normal SS2 Vegeta is using.
	RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power


superperfectnerd	Jun 11 2018, 09:34 PM Post #67
Posts: 3,709 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	So we either have an abnormally powerful base that looks the same but isn't or an abnormally powerful ssj2 which looks the same but isn't? Either way this debate is pointless because we all have to utilise some headcanon to make any sense of it or we have to decide to take certain statements with a grain of salt. I mean aside from the 'shaking the universe' thing, feats have actually often seemed more impressive in og Dragon Ball than in Z, you can't see the progression, the animation will only ever move so fast and we need to see it too. So ssj2 Vegeta looks as fast today as he did when he first arrived on Earth. All we have is vague, contradictory statements.



SuperSaiyanGodGogeta	Jun 11 2018, 09:44 PM Post #68
Posts: 1,228 Group: Member Member #11,951 Joined: December 29, 2014 Gender Male	There is no problem with Black's power. And no he doesn't get the same multiplier that Goku and Vegeta get from Blue since he got overpowered by SSB Vegeta initially in the anime before powering up. And Black in Rose is stated to rival Super Saiyan Blue, so he isn't hundreds of times stronger. Rose is just Black accessing Goku's original power. There isn't any reason it would have to match Blue in terms of multiplier.
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PF18	Jun 11 2018, 09:55 PM Post #69
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	SuperSaiyanGodGogeta Jun 11 2018, 09:44 PM There is no problem with Black's power. And no he doesn't get the same multiplier that Goku and Vegeta get from Blue since he got overpowered by SSB Vegeta initially in the anime before powering up. And Black in Rose is stated to rival Super Saiyan Blue, so he isn't hundreds of times stronger. Rose is just Black accessing Goku's original power. There isn't any reason it would have to match Blue in terms of multiplier. Good point. I agree with you for once!



+ Son-Goku	Jun 11 2018, 11:43 PM Post #70
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	There is a problem with Black's power as far as the manga goes. Using a different boost doesn't matter. His full power was stated to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and later, Trunks says that Black was even stronger than before. Yet, we see Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta stomping Black at his full power. Vegeta is stated to be equal to Goku and if anything he should be weaker as Vegeta says that Goku pushed himself further with training. So as superperfectnerd said, we all have our own headcanon to have sense of it. Personally, I believe Vegeta was utilizing something similar to the form he used against Beerus when he hit Bulma.
	RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power


PF18	Jun 12 2018, 02:24 AM Post #71
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Son-Goku Jun 11 2018, 11:43 PM There is a problem with Black's power as far as the manga goes. Using a different boost doesn't matter. His full power was stated to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and later, Trunks says that Black was even stronger than before. Yet, we see Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta stomping Black at his full power. Vegeta is stated to be equal to Goku and if anything he should be weaker as Vegeta says that Goku pushed himself further with training. So as superperfectnerd said, we all have our own headcanon to have sense of it. Personally, I believe Vegeta was utilizing something similar to the form he used against Beerus when he hit Bulma. Yeah I have no interest in rationalizing the manga it just makes no sense to me lol. The anime shows that Rose is a different form than SSB, and we can see that since Black can even somewhat compete with SSB Vegeta in Base, but then doesn't have THAT large of a boost as a SSJ Rose since Vegeta is still able to Block a punch or two of his before being stabbed and being disposed of. The gap between Vegeta's base and Black's base was enormous(In favor of Black of course)but the gap between Rose and SSB wasn't really that large at all. Edited by PF18, Jun 12 2018, 02:24 AM.



+ Son-Goku	Jun 12 2018, 02:27 AM Post #72
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	The anime makes less than. SS2 Trunks was competing better than SSB Vegeta did.
	RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power


PF18	Jun 12 2018, 02:35 AM Post #73
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Son-Goku Jun 12 2018, 02:27 AM The anime makes less than. SS2 Trunks was competing better than SSB Vegeta did. This is just false. Maybe Super Saiyan Rage but not SSJ2.



+ Son-Goku	Jun 12 2018, 03:27 PM Post #74
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	Right here. Edited by Son-Goku, Jun 12 2018, 03:29 PM.
	RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power


PF18	Jun 13 2018, 04:40 PM Post #75
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Son-Goku Jun 12 2018, 03:27 PM Right here. Yeah Trunks doesn't actually do much. Vegeta doesn't totally lose that badly either he blocked Black's punch he just didn't see the ki blade coming. Yes, this scene is very strange. But, to be fair, they did give a reason for it. The episode descripion talked about Trunks gaining a lot of power in his training with Vegeta Edited by PF18, Jun 13 2018, 04:41 PM.



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