Vegeta (Super) vs Majin Boo Arc

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Vegeta (Super) vs Majin Boo Arc
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 2 2018, 04:59 PM (2,406 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jun 5 2018, 09:57 PM Post #46
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	PF18 I did provide the actual quotes actually. It was in a previous post. Aw, I should have read your previous post, my bad. While not as overt, Kuririn did make that remark after Gohan is awestruck by their Ki, so arguing base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku was in the Beerus arc is fair. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jun 5 2018, 09:59 PM.
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PF18	Jun 5 2018, 10:17 PM Post #47
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jun 5 2018, 09:57 PM PF18 I did provide the actual quotes actually. It was in a previous post. Aw, I should have read your previous post, my bad. While not as overt, Kuririn did make that remark after Gohan is awestruck by their Ki, so arguing base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku was in the Beerus arc is fair. It is a ptetty vague statement and it is fair. But there isn't any real clarity. Krillin just comments on being more scared than he was when Beerus showed up. Mind you, Beerus was a stranger at the time and Freeza he knows is an evil maniac that killed him in the past. Edited by PF18, Jun 5 2018, 10:18 PM.



PF18	Jun 5 2018, 10:23 PM Post #48
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Quote: I don't like Super Vegetto < ssjg Goku < base Cabba < Piccolo after a bit of training for a few months < Frost I don't like that either. Since that isn't actually shown. SSJ Goku had infused the SSG power and surpassed. In order for Goku's base to have surpassed this power, his training with Whis would have to have yielded a 50x boost. Things look more like this IMO: SSJ Goku U6 Arc>SSG Goku BoG>SSJ Vegetto>Frost>Base Goku/Vegeta U6 Arc=Base Cabba>Piccolo With Piccolo, as always, gaining a huge boost when he charges his makankōsappō Edited by PF18, Jun 5 2018, 10:24 PM.



Slifer	Jun 5 2018, 10:43 PM Post #49
Posts: 3,488 Group: Member Member #10,141 Joined: September 7, 2013	Most of this could've been resolved by: 1. Having Goku lose all of his SSJG power, and only regaining it when transforming into SSJG again. No two-Base, no boosted Base, no Saiyan Beyond God. 2. Have Goku transform into SSJ3 to fight First Form Freeza, with the two of them being relatively even. This is primarily to display the fact that Freeza in his weakest form surpassed Kid Boo. 3. Then have SSJG Goku vs Final Form Freeza, and Goku kicks his a. 4. Then carry on as normal with SSJB vs Golden. Edited by Slifer**, Jun 5 2018, 10:46 PM.



PF18	Jun 5 2018, 10:48 PM Post #50
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Slifer Jun 5 2018, 10:43 PM Most of this could've been resolved by: 1. Having Goku lose all of his SSJG power, and only regaining it when transforming into SSJG again. No two-Base, no boosted Base, no Saiyan Beyond God. 2. Have Goku transform into SSJ3 to fight First Form Freeza, with the two of them being relatively even. This is primarily to display the fact that Freeza in his weakest form surpassed Kid Boo. 3. Then have SSJG Goku vs Final Form Freeza, and Goku kicks his a**. 4. Then carry on as normal with SSJB vs Golden. Yeah that would have been nice but things didnt work out that way. I like what they actually did even though that might have been better. This might be a "grass is always greener" thing though.



superperfectnerd	Jun 6 2018, 09:17 PM Post #51
Posts: 3,709 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	There's also the fact that ssj2 Trunks is relative to ssj2 Goku (and therefore ssj2 Vegeta) and base Black is beyond ssj2 Trunks and ssj2 Goku. Ssjrose is a ssjb equivalent with pink hair. So, if Black's base is above Vegeta's ssj2 then Black is over 100 times stronger than Vegeta in equal forms and rising, so Vegeta would have had to get over 100 times stronger in the ROSAT in 6 months and he'd then be over ten times stronger than ssjbkkx10 Goku. None of this works. However if Black is using 'saiyan beyond god' and ssjrose (ssjb basically) it all makes sense. Base Vegeta < base Vegeta (post ROSAT) < fpssj Vegeta < fpssj Vegeta (post ROSAT) < ssj2 Vegeta < ssj2 Vegeta (post ROSAT) < saiyan beyond god Vegeta < saiyan beyond god Black < saiyan beyond God Vegeta (post ROSAT) < ssjb Vegeta < ssjr Black < ssjb Vegeta (post ROSAT) Edited by superperfectnerd, Jun 6 2018, 09:26 PM.



PF18	Jun 7 2018, 12:26 AM Post #52
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	superperfectnerd Jun 6 2018, 09:17 PM There's also the fact that ssj2 Trunks is relative to ssj2 Goku (and therefore ssj2 Vegeta) and base Black is beyond ssj2 Trunks and ssj2 Goku. Ssjrose is a ssjb equivalent with pink hair. So, if Black's base is above Vegeta's ssj2 then Black is over 100 times stronger than Vegeta in equal forms and rising, so Vegeta would have had to get over 100 times stronger in the ROSAT in 6 months and he'd then be over ten times stronger than ssjbkkx10 Goku. None of this works. However if Black is using 'saiyan beyond god' and ssjrose (ssjb basically) it all makes sense. Base Vegeta < base Vegeta (post ROSAT) < fpssj Vegeta < fpssj Vegeta (post ROSAT) < ssj2 Vegeta < ssj2 Vegeta (post ROSAT) < saiyan beyond god Vegeta < saiyan beyond god Black < saiyan beyond God Vegeta (post ROSAT) < ssjb Vegeta < ssjr Black < ssjb Vegeta (post ROSAT) Well what you said in the first sentence I don't agree with. The following sequence of events happens: Goku and Trunks fight evenly as SSJ2s. Goku goes SSJ3 and one shots Trunks. Trunks says that Black is stronger than the power Goku just used to beat him and Goku is intrigued. Black shows up and fights Goku and Goku wins or atleast has a slight edge as a SSJ2. So things look like this: SSJ2 Goku Full-power>Base Black>SSJ3 Goku(suppressed)>SSJ2 Goku(suppressed)=SSJ2 Trunks So yes, SSJ2 Goku and Base Black are about equivalent to each other. No, this does not mean that Vegeta would have to get over 100 times stronger in the ROSAT. This is going with the mentality that Vegeta needs his Base to be stronger than Black in order for his SSB to be stronger than SSR Black. (and therefore any equivalent form needs to be stronger.) The problem is that is operating under the assumption that Super Saiyan Rose and Super Saiyan Blue have the same multiplier. I don't see how that is a reasonable assumption. We don't know enough about Rose to know if it is an equivalent multiplier. So you don't need to conclude that Vegeta got this massive 100+ times boost in the ROSAT. It just isn't necessary to rationalize it that way. So a two base theory isn't needed to rationalize this.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jun 7 2018, 12:31 AM Post #53
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Except Goku points out that base Black is holding back, so... Hell, Trunks even asks why Goku is not using Super Saiyan 3, so I doubt Goku was holding back against Trunks. And no, assuming Super Saiyan Rose is Black's equivalent to SSGSS is a justified assumption. Seriously, what else would it be? Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jun 7 2018, 12:40 AM.
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PF18	Jun 7 2018, 12:47 AM Post #54
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jun 7 2018, 12:31 AM Except Goku points out that base Black is holding back, so... Hell, Trunks even asks why Goku is not using Super Saiyan 3, so I doubt Goku was holding back against Trunks. And no, assuming Super Saiyan Rose is Black's equivalent to SSGSS is a justified assumption. Seriously, what else would it be? Did Goku state Base Black was holding back? I don't recall but you could be right. Trunks says that Black is stronger than the SSJ3 Goku exhibited. Goku fights evenly with Black as a SSJ2. the way I interpreted it was he suppressed himself to give him a more fair fight against Goku. I don't see how that is a reasonable assumption. We essentially nothing of the transformation and we can't just assume it is the same as a transformation we already know. Why would it look entirely different if it was the same form with the same multiplier? Rose just has a different aura and a different hair color for no reason? In the anime, Black does not have the normal SSJ transformations. For him to go from no transformations to an essentially identical SSB makes no sense. If anything, Black gets a normal SSJ boost from it. or a higher multiplier than SSJ but not as much as SSB. Ultimately, what I'm saying is "Saiyan Beyond God" I think was a movies only thing that was retired when DBS retconned the movies. Edit: I just rewatched the episode. Goku makes a couple comments about Black not being at full-power. However, this is when they were establishing that Black gets vastly stronger as he fights as he adjusts to Goku's body. It isn't that he was suppressed, it was that he couldn't bring out the full power of that body yet. He confirms this is the case when he goes back to his own timeline. Edited by PF18, Jun 7 2018, 12:58 AM.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jun 7 2018, 01:04 AM Post #55
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	PF18 Jun 7 2018, 12:47 AM Did Goku state Base Black was holding back? I don't recall but you could Trunks says that Black is stronger than the SSJ3 Goku exhibited. Goku fights evenly with Black as a SSJ2. the way I interpreted it was he suppressed himself to give him a more fair fight against Goku. I don't see how that is a reasonable assumption. We essentially nothing of the transformation and we can't just assume it is the same as a transformation we already know. Why would it look entirely different if it was the same form with the same multiplier? Rose just has a different aura and a different hair color for no reason? In the anime, Black does not have the normal SSJ transformations. For him to go from no transformations to an essentially identical SSB makes no sense. If anything, Black gets a normal SSJ boost from it. or a higher multiplier than SSJ but not as much as SSB. He did. Episode: 50 Goku: "What are you waiting for?" Black: "I can ask the same of you." Goku: "I'm waiting... for your full power!" Black: "There's no need to rush things. Let's have some more fun for a while." Trunks even says this while Goku and Black are fighting. Episode: 50 Trunks: "What's wrong with Goku-san? Why isn't he using the power he used against me?" It is reasonable. It looks exactly like SSGSS only pink. That's really the only evidence you need. To suggest it's anything else requires evidence. It's name would even suggest it's his take on SSGSS, given they've started calling it Super Saiyan Blue, and Black called his form Rose to play along. I don't see why he'd look different if this was just his version of Super Saiyan. PF18 Edit: I just rewatched the episode. Goku makes a couple comments about Black not being at full-power. However, this is when they were establishing that Black gets vastly stronger as he fights as he adjusts to Goku's body. It isn't that he was suppressed, it was that he couldn't bring out the full power of that body yet. He confirms this is the case when he goes back to his own timeline. Wrong. Fighting Goku indeed made him stronger, but he was still suppressed. Ultimately what fighting Goku did was allow him to ascend to Rose, which Black himself stated. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jun 7 2018, 01:10 AM.
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PF18	Jun 7 2018, 02:34 AM Post #56
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jun 7 2018, 01:04 AM PF18 Jun 7 2018, 12:47 AM Did Goku state Base Black was holding back? I don't recall but you could Trunks says that Black is stronger than the SSJ3 Goku exhibited. Goku fights evenly with Black as a SSJ2. the way I interpreted it was he suppressed himself to give him a more fair fight against Goku. I don't see how that is a reasonable assumption. We essentially nothing of the transformation and we can't just assume it is the same as a transformation we already know. Why would it look entirely different if it was the same form with the same multiplier? Rose just has a different aura and a different hair color for no reason? In the anime, Black does not have the normal SSJ transformations. For him to go from no transformations to an essentially identical SSB makes no sense. If anything, Black gets a normal SSJ boost from it. or a higher multiplier than SSJ but not as much as SSB. He did. Episode: 50 Goku: "What are you waiting for?" Black: "I can ask the same of you." Goku: "I'm waiting... for your full power!" Black: "There's no need to rush things. Let's have some more fun for a while." Trunks even says this while Goku and Black are fighting. Episode: 50 Trunks: "What's wrong with Goku-san? Why isn't he using the power he used against me?" It is reasonable. It looks exactly like SSGSS only pink. That's really the only evidence you need. To suggest it's anything else requires evidence. It's name would even suggest it's his take on SSGSS, given they've started calling it Super Saiyan Blue, and Black called his form Rose to play along. I don't see why he'd look different if this was just his version of Super Saiyan. PF18 Edit: I just rewatched the episode. Goku makes a couple comments about Black not being at full-power. However, this is when they were establishing that Black gets vastly stronger as he fights as he adjusts to Goku's body. It isn't that he was suppressed, it was that he couldn't bring out the full power of that body yet. He confirms this is the case when he goes back to his own timeline. Wrong. Fighting Goku indeed made him stronger, but he was still suppressed. Ultimately what fighting Goku did was allow him to ascend to Rose, which Black himself stated. You say "exactly alike except pink", I mean right there they don't look exactly alike. The entire point of "they look exactly alike!" is kind of diminished when you have two Gokus running around who look exactly alike and are completely different. We have very little information on SSJ Rose and absolutely no reason to believe that it is an identical amplifier to SSB. "To suggest anything else requires evidence" since the burden of proof is to prove they are the same not to just arbitrarily decide they are the same. We have no evidence so we don't know that they are the same, and for that matter we don't know that they are different either. We quite literally don't know anything. So we don't need any theory to rationalize this as though it is a certainty because it isn't.



StrenuousSpider	Jun 7 2018, 04:57 AM Post #57
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	Just look at the manga for the proof you want. Black goes normal ssj possibly ssj2 then goes Rose. Also didn't zamasu say something like a divine being who as surpassed ssj god turns pink not blue. Which is pretty much identical to how blue is described minus the divine part. So we get a pretty clear picture that Blue = Pink ones mortal ones divine which also goes along with the theme of the arc. Yes it was vague in anime but manga makes it clear as day. But both regardless have them as the same form. Also black to me had the upper hand on goku the whole fight. Black was distracted by trunks and his time machine and he still fought goku well. Trunks saying black was ssj3 level makes him ssj3 level. Goku was showing trunks the power of ssj3 no reason for him to hold back. Its also fair to note every time black powered up he was being sucked back to the future. So its safe to say it was not a fair fight for black. Also if you have ssj2 trunks = ssj2 goku and black smashes ssj2 trunks then logic says he can do the same to goku as a ssj2 easily. Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jun 7 2018, 04:58 AM.



+ Pyrus	Jun 7 2018, 09:47 PM Post #58
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Manga-wise, Rose is definitely supposed to be the gods' equivalent to Blue. Ch. 20, pg. 18.4-19.1 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu: “This is…amazing!! So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!”
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+ Son-Goku	Jun 8 2018, 12:37 AM Post #59
孫悟空 Posts: 13,359 Group: Elite Member Member #12,886 Joined: January 24, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime DB/DBZ/DBS, Code Geass, Gintama, YYH, Death Note, and SAO. What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fairy Tail, and Naruto.	I'm pretty sure even anime wise, Rosé is Blacku's equivalent of Blue.
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PF18	Jun 8 2018, 12:52 AM Post #60
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Pyrus Jun 7 2018, 09:47 PM Manga-wise, Rose is definitely supposed to be the gods' equivalent to Blue. Ch. 20, pg. 18.4-19.1 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu: “This is…amazing!! So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!” This is far more explicit than anything in the anime. In the anime the best we can conclude is that they are similar transformations. To deduce it has an identical multiplier is pure speculation and would throw the power scale into a loop. It may work in the manga, but the manga is completely different. In the manga it makes more sense too because Black achieved the "normal" SSJ transformation. So it only makes sense that he can progress to the divine version of SSJ. However, in the anime Rose is the only transformation in Black's arsenal and so it is harder to conclude that is a strict equivalent to SSB in terms of a multipler.



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