PF18

Jun 4 2018, 10:27 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jun 4 2018, 08:59 PM

I mean, Goku struggles a lot when he shouldn't in the Tournament of Power, lol. I'd say Frost is a better indicator of a 2 base theory.

Base Goku >~ True Form Freeza

Third Form Frost > Base Goku

Super Saiyan Vegeta(ToP) ~ Final Form Frost(ToP)

True Form Freeza(ToP) >>> Final Form Frost(ToP)

Vegeta had to make a conscious effort not to kill Frost as Frost mentioned and Vegeta didn't dispute it. Frost and SSJ Vegeta are not even close to being equals. Vegeta easily deflected Frost's ki blast he shot at him in Base. Then he went over and proceeded to kick the crap out of him.

PF18

 

Final Form Freeza(ToP)>Base Goku ToP>>>Final Form Frost>=Base Goku U6>Base Goku ROF>Final Form Freeza ROF

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jun 4 2018, 10:53 PM

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 10:27 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jun 4 2018, 08:59 PM

I mean, Goku struggles a lot when he shouldn't in the Tournament of Power, lol. I'd say Frost is a better indicator of a 2 base theory.

Base Goku >~ True Form Freeza

Third Form Frost > Base Goku

Super Saiyan Vegeta(ToP) ~ Final Form Frost(ToP)

True Form Freeza(ToP) >>> Final Form Frost(ToP)

Vegeta had to make a conscious effort not to kill Frost as Frost mentioned and Vegeta didn't dispute it. Frost and SSJ Vegeta are not even close to being equals. Vegeta easily deflected Frost's ki blast he shot at him in Base. Then he went over and proceeded to kick the crap out of him.

You're being rather selective here. Super Saiyan Vegeta has to hold back against Frost, but Frost doesn't have to hold back against base Vegeta in that instance? He shot that attack to get his attention. Frost in his third form was stronger than base Goku during the God Selection Tournament, yet Freeza is noted to be significantly stronger than Frost in his final form in the Tournament of Power, and base Goku was stronger than Freeza in the arc before the God Selection Tournament. I'd say the implication is clear.

Freeza(True Form) > Frost(Final Form) > Frost(Third Form) > Base Goku > Freeza(True Form)

There's a problem here that is adequately dismissed by a 2 base theory.

Saiyan Beyond God Goku > Freeza(True Form) > Super Saiyan Goku > Frost(Final Form) > Frost(Third Form) > Base Goku

EDIT: Also, Frost doesn't mention anything to Vegeta about having to hold back.

PF18

 

Final Form Freeza(ToP)>Base Goku ToP>>>Final Form Frost>=Base Goku U6>Base Goku ROF>Final Form Freeza ROF

Unless the difference between Freeza's true form and Golden Evolution drastically shrank, this doesn't work.

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 11:42 PM

Frost's exact words were to Base Vegeta "another hit and I just might die" after Vegeta had only hit him once.
Implying that on Vegeta's next hit he ahd to hold back to prevent murdering Frost. Why would Frost have to hold back against Base Vegeta? I am not being selective, we are given no indication that Frost is strong enough to need to hold back. Base Vegeta is just straight up stronger than Frost and almost knocks him out in one hit. (Base Vegeta who is relative to Final Form Frreza) You keep making reference to the U6 tournament, but Goku,and Vegeta are massively stronger than they were then and far surpassed Final Form Frost in their Base.

Your chain makes no sense given the massive gain that Goku has, him and Vegeta are much stronger than Frost in Base and Freeza is relative to them. No two base theory is needed nor is it implied or supported.

(ToP Base Goku/Base Vegeta/True Form Freeza)>>Final Form Frost>Base Goku U6>Base Goku ROF>=True Form Freeza RoF

As far as your comment about Freeza's true form and Golden's difference having to be shrunk. it would only have to shrink slightly so that Base Goku could go from being slightly weaker than Base Goku to being slight to moderately stronger than Base Goku. This Freeza portion where he is stronger than ToP Base Goku is the only part that doesn't fit perfectly. I am not sure how to rationalize it, but we are clearly shown that ToP Final Form Freeza>ToP Base Goku. As shown by:

1. Freeza in Final form was relative to SSJ2 Cabba.
2. Freeza in Final form easily tanked Dyspo's hits.
3. Freeza was relative to SSJ Goku in the final scene of the tournament.
4. Freeza's performance against Jiren in Final Form was better than Goku's in Base.

The way I see it is that Freeza use to only be able to access say 50% of his power without buffing up but now he can utilize all 100%. This would allow for him to go from being slightly weaker than Base Goku to being slightly stronger than Base Goku. Again, the reason for the increase is just my headcanon, but we know that there was an increase.

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jun 4 2018, 11:57 PM

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 11:42 PM

Frost's exact words were to Base Vegeta "another hit and I just might die" after Vegeta had only hit him once.
Implying that on Vegeta's next hit he ahd to hold back to prevent murdering Frost. Why would Frost have to hold back against Base Vegeta? I am not being selective, we are given no indication that Frost is strong enough to need to hold back. Base Vegeta is just straight up stronger than Frost and almost knocks him out in one hit. (Base Vegeta who is relative to Final Form Frreza) You keep making reference to the U6 tournament, but Goku,and Vegeta are massively stronger than they were then and far surpassed Final Form Frost in their Base.

Your chain makes no sense given the massive gain that Goku has, him and Vegeta are much stronger than Frost in Base and Freeza is relative to them. No two base theory is needed nor is it implied or supported.

(ToP Base Goku/Base Vegeta/True Form Freeza)>>Final Form Frost>Base Goku U6>Base Goku ROF>=True Form Freeza RoF

As far as your comment about Freeza's true form and Golden's difference having to be shrunk. it would only have to shrink slightly so that Base Goku could go from being slightly weaker than Base Goku to being slight to moderately stronger than Base Goku. This Freeza portion where he is stronger than ToP Base Goku is the only part that doesn't fit perfectly. I am not sure how to rationalize it, but we are clearly shown that ToP Final Form Freeza>ToP Base Goku. As shown by:

1. Freeza in Final form was relative to SSJ2 Cabba.
2. Freeza in Final form easily tanked Dyspo's hits.
3. Freeza was relative to SSJ Goku in the final scene of the tournament.
4. Freeza's performance against Jiren in Final Form was better than Goku's in Base.

The way I see it is that Freeza use to only be able to access say 50% of his power without buffing up but now he can utilize all 100%. This would allow for him to go from being slightly weaker than Base Goku to being slightly stronger than Base Goku. Again, the reason for the increase is just my headcanon, but we know that there was an increase.

You may want to try presenting that line in its full context, where Frost admits it was a bluff.

Base Vegeta isn't stronger than Frost, and because Golden Freeza is now equal to SSGSS Goku, his true form is now more inferior than he was before.

Freeza in his true form is comparable to Dyspo who himself is comparable to Super Saiyan God Goku, as we saw. It's almost like Super Saiyan God and Saiyan Beyond God are interchangeable or something.

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 10:16 PM

Son-Goku

Jun 4 2018, 09:18 PM

Pyrus

Jun 4 2018, 08:26 PM

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 03:27 PM

Krillin did not make a comment about Base Goku's ki being terrified compared to the previous Goku he sensed, he only made a comment about being in fear. This is more of a reflection of what they know about Freeza being evil rather than Beerus being more of a mysterious character. Gohan didn't make a comment about Goku being stronger than before he just said they had tremendous ki. That was literally all Gohan said. Gohan was just stating the obvious.

It was definitely in reference to Base Goku's power. Krillin literally says "he" as in Goku, and then moments later indicates Goku by name. Gohan backs him up too.

I mean, unless you consider it the Saiyan Beyond god/god-like Saiyan form.

Those are the dub lines and not the actual dialogue. The actual official translations are:

Gohan: They both have tremendous ki!
Krillin: Unlike with Beerus I sense a real indescribable fear right now

So the actual Japanese dialogue makes no such reference to power. Krillin's statement is incredibly vague. He says it is an "indescribable fear." Which again, is probably more so attributed to Freeza being a known villain(that killed him before and tries to kill him again later in that same episode) and Beerus being a stranger to him. Gohan just makes a generic comment with no reference to a comparison between Goku's previous power.

Pyrus

Jun 5 2018, 08:22 PM

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 10:16 PM

Son-Goku

Jun 4 2018, 09:18 PM

Pyrus

Jun 4 2018, 08:26 PM

PF18

Jun 4 2018, 03:27 PM

Krillin did not make a comment about Base Goku's ki being terrified compared to the previous Goku he sensed, he only made a comment about being in fear. This is more of a reflection of what they know about Freeza being evil rather than Beerus being more of a mysterious character. Gohan didn't make a comment about Goku being stronger than before he just said they had tremendous ki. That was literally all Gohan said. Gohan was just stating the obvious.

It was definitely in reference to Base Goku's power. Krillin literally says "he" as in Goku, and then moments later indicates Goku by name. Gohan backs him up too.

I mean, unless you consider it the Saiyan Beyond god/god-like Saiyan form.

Those are the dub lines and not the actual dialogue. The actual official translations are:

Gohan: They both have tremendous ki!
Krillin: Unlike with Beerus I sense a real indescribable fear right now

So the actual Japanese dialogue makes no such reference to power. Krillin's statement is incredibly vague. He says it is an "indescribable fear." Which again, is probably more so attributed to Freeza being a known villain(that killed him before and tries to kill him again later in that same episode) and Beerus being a stranger to him. Gohan just makes a generic comment with no reference to a comparison between Goku's previous power.

Why would the dub lines be subtitled? I guess I should go see the actual episode. I thought those were the original lines this whole time.

Son-Goku

Jun 5 2018, 09:00 PM

Please don't forget this is Dragon Ball Super.

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jun 5 2018, 08:39 PM

Okay, what did they actually say? Don't just say they don't say that and not provide the actual quotes.

superperfectnerd

Jun 5 2018, 08:59 PM

2 base theory is headcanon but so what?

There's no making sense of ssjb Vegeta =< base Black <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ssjr Black with ssjb equivalent multiplier < ssjb Vegeta after 6 months of ROSAT training

Only way that works is if Black is using a saiyan beyond god esque base form or Vegeta got thousands upon thousands of times stronger.

PF18

Jun 5 2018, 09:23 PM

superperfectnerd

Jun 5 2018, 08:59 PM

2 base theory is headcanon but so what?

There's no making sense of ssjb Vegeta =< base Black <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ssjr Black with ssjb equivalent multiplier < ssjb Vegeta after 6 months of ROSAT training

Only way that works is if Black is using a saiyan beyond god esque base form or Vegeta got thousands upon thousands of times stronger.

That isn't actually the case. Base Black wasn't portrayed as stronger than SSB Vegeta so this enormous gap you are implying doesn't have to exist. Black blocks Vegeta's attacks and throws in a "sucker punch" then he transforms. He smiles knowing that he has Rose up his sleeve and can slaughter Vegeta once he uses it.

If this idea that:

SSB Vegeta post ROSAT>SSJ Rose Black>>>>>>>Base Black>SSB Vegeta pre ROSAT

was actually the case, and Rose was thousands of times stronger than SSB before the ROSAT, then Vegeta wouldn't have been able to catch/block SSJ Rose Black's initial punch prior to being stabbed. They squabbled kind of evenly at first before ultimately SSJ Rose Black defeated him.

Things actually look like:

SSB Vegeta post ROSAT>SSJ Rose Black>SSB Vegeta pre ROSAT>Base Black

Which is really no different than the boost Vegeta received before fighting Cell.