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The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai goes uninterrupted...
Topic Started: May 27 2018, 04:02 PM (4,549 Views)
EMIYA May 30 2018, 09:36 PM Post #106
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Toriyama certainly seemed to retcon SSJ2 Gohan from the Budokai...who says he can't here?

Although, while Gohan has legitimate evidence for retcon, Kaioken is a more vague thing. That's because, while the implications of SSJ amp being lower are there, things are vague enough that you can still technically use higher amps. It may mean getting absurd gaps between some characters,which some manipulation can help fix, but there is no rule saying that can't happen.

So let me ask some questions.

1.) If Vegeta is weaker than Freeza, if all the Base Saiyans are weaker...why did Vegeta say anything? Why did Vegeta act like he could win if he was weaker than Freeza?

2.) Why did Piccolo tell Goku that Kaioshin was more powerful than him if it wasn't true?

3.) Why did the Base Saiyans get singled out while Piccolo got thrown out with the trash if it wasn't true?

4.) Why was so much emphasis put on the Base Kids challenging No. 18, if they're vastly weaker than Freeza?

5.) Why were these same kids given such confidence to take on Abo and Cado, people directly stated to rival Freeza and in the manga, the kids outright destroyed the two, if it wasn't true?

It's really strange how the manga goes out of its way to push certain developments in a direction. Kids are rivaling No. 18 in a fight, Vegeta's expressing confidence, Piccolo is admitting his inferiority and getting the short end of the stick.

It's strange how all of this, seemingly leads to something that is 100% false.

Confusing isn't it?
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Notaka May 30 2018, 09:41 PM Post #107
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Always Wright
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So you must admit to me that Vegeta is an idiot, and partially brain dead right? Because that's this argument is working. The entire argument on Base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza, literally relies on...let's be honest, a lot of assumption.


Assumptions ? You have literally a statement to it.

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In fact, it relies on twisting a lot of the feats and statements.


Which feats ? Like that ambiguous 18 vs Kids fight? or which statements? That "My superior position" statement which went and burned the moment Goku was revealed to be still stronger than Vegeta?
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Why do you think Vegeta made his remark in the first place if he's weaker than Freeza? Why didn't Vegeta just grumble and say "That's a stupid rule..." and leave it at that? Let's analyze all the actions of Vegeta's so called arrogance here.


Because he's arrogant. I've been saying that non-stop. He's too proud to admit "I'm going to lose without my Super Saiyan".
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1.) He treats Goku in the Saiyan Arc as a borderline joke and acts his superior throughout the entire fight, despite not knowing Goku's full power and arsenal. Well this same Vegeta had a PL of 18,000, an attack that could break through even KK3 Goku's ability and on top of that, a transformation that allowed him to increase his power 10x. All that arrogance kind of had a point.


He actually had the readings to back that arrogance.

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2.) Vegeta was arrogant against Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon because he knew what their powers were like and he knew that he himself had gotten much stronger on Earth. However, he was unaware of how strong Zarbon would get when he transformed and underestimated him, yet once he got his Zenkai, his confidence returned for good reason. But as the Namek Arc goes on, Vegeta never expresses his superiority unless he specifically knows it. When the Ginyu Squad comes, Vegeta is trembling, because he knows that he can't beat them. Meanwhile, Vegeta never once tries to take on Freeza until he has powered up significantly.


Same point as above.
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3.) Against Freeza, Vegeta has specifically powered up and gotten to a level that he was at that point, the only one who could fight Freeza until Goku came. Vegeta might have arrogantly thought himself the Super Saiyan, but he was currently the only one with the power to do anything to start with. Then when Freeza returns, despite obviously getting stronger, Vegeta is not arrogantly strutting around acting like he can defeat him.


This is where it starts. He thinks he's above Final Form Frieza, until Frieza showed him the hard truth which breaks him into crying. Yes he was the only one who could do anything, but apparently, he really thought he could do anything including defeating Frieza.

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4.) Against the Cyborgs, for one, they can't be sensed but two, the last one Vegeta fought was such a jobber that everyone else was feeling like they might have trained too much. Why shouldn't he be confident against No. 18? Everyone else proved little more than a slight nuisance.


Again, still my point. He never sensed 17's or 18's power but he automatically assumes that they're weaker than him.
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5.) Against Cell...well No. 16 himself stated he was the superior one. Vegeta's so called "Arrogance" is backed up by a pretty reliable source.


You mean this quote?:
Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4
No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!”
Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.”
Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.”

Well, obviously from the looks of the next few pages, 16 is deathly wrong. Then I guess 16 isn't a reliable source himself, and it doesn't excuse Vegeta who thought that even if Cell reached his perfect form, he'd still be below him.

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6.) Against Fat Boo, Vegeta's arrogance goes over the point that Boo has a hidden power that, unlike him, Goku seems to notice and to be fair, Vegeta's whooping Boo's pink butt until the thing powers up. Plus, Vegeta's arrogance on that notion notably decreases once Goku points it out to him.


Goku still warned him Buu is not to be underestimated and suggested that both he and Vegeta team up on him. Vegeta, of course, being too proud, decided to go alone and paid dearly for it. Though I'll admit he was far less overconfident than he usually is.

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Vegeta's "Arrogance" is not based on 'Blind Faith" there is always some measure of truth or reason behind it and its the same for everyone. Arrogance relies on a sense of confidence and too much Arrogance can lead to ignorance. However, ignorance is a lack of knowledge or information. The way that Vegeta didn't know that Goku had gotten more powerful than expected, or didn't know that Cell had been holding back more than he let on.


Vegeta is more overconfident than Arrogant. Sure he admits his inferiority, but he automatically assumes he's superior than someone he doesn't know the strength of. I say and say it again; Why would he say "His superior position won't change", when he obviously doesn't know how strong Goku, Piccolo or 18 could have gotten? He knows he isn't the only one to train, yet he still insists on him having the superior position, which doesn't hold water when Goku was shown to be stronger than him.

It's all there is to it. It's a quote that showcases Vegeta's usual overconfidence and arrogance, it goes down the toilet just a few chapters later but it's still treated like definite proof, when the statement for the opposite case has never, ever been contradicted later in the series and characters in-universe(like the humble-about-his-strength Goku) have acknowledged it as fact.

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But when Vegeta knows he's weaker than Freeza (I mean, he knows how strong Freeza was and he knows how strong his Base was) but then directly acts like he can win...


Or maybe he doesn't know. He's never sensed Frieza's full power.

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that's not arrogance. That's the actions of a moron.


Again I ask, why can't Vegeta be a moron ? Does he hold like some Physics PhD, thus making me unable to say he's a moron?

He's made terrible choices that nearly cost the Earth. Also I need to feel to mention, it's not as much stupidity as it is overconfidence and pride's in one self.

In short, He's strong, he has the right to think he's strong, but when he thinks he's stronger than People he doesn't even know how strong they are, then it just enters into the overconfidence and arrogance territory. Pure and simple.
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+ Son-Goku May 30 2018, 09:43 PM Post #108
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孫悟空
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1.) If Vegeta is weaker than Freeza, if all the Base Saiyans are weaker...why did Vegeta say anything? Why did Vegeta act like he could win if he was weaker than Freeza?

Because he's an arrogant prick, like we already went over. Enough has been said that it doesn't need explained again.

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2.) Why did Piccolo tell Goku that Kaioshin was more powerful than him if it wasn't true?

It was true, this has no point.

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3.) Why did the Base Saiyans get singled out while Piccolo got thrown out with the trash if it wasn't true?

What are you talking about? About Piccolo getting spit on and turned to stone like anyone else would've?

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4.) Why was so much emphasis put on the Base Kids challenging No. 18, if they're vastly weaker than Freeza?

They clearly needed Super Saiyan to win and she had no idea who they were at first. She was likely suppressed as well when they were in base.

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5.) Why were these same kids given such confidence to take on Abo and Cado, people directly stated to rival Freeza and in the manga, the kids outright destroyed the two, if it wasn't true?

Don't even try to use this special if you refuse to accept the Super statement.

Edit: And you still have not given a clear point on the kaioken issue. You're only saying random things at this point.
Edited by Son-Goku, May 30 2018, 09:44 PM.
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Notaka May 30 2018, 09:45 PM Post #109
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Always Wright

 And that special statement has been said by Tarble, I believe. I doubt Tarble saw Frieza's true form so he most likely based Abo's and Cado's strength from his first Form.
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+ Son-Goku May 30 2018, 09:46 PM Post #110
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孫悟空

 Regardless, it shouldn't be used here if he isn't going to accept the Super statement where Beerus flat out says Frieza>base saiyans.
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EMIYA May 30 2018, 09:47 PM Post #111
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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In short, He's strong, he has the right to think he's strong, but when he thinks he's stronger than People he doesn't even know how strong they are, then it just enters into the overconfidence and arrogance territory. Pure and simple.


Let's take a look at this very specific quote here and its the very thing you and I think a lot of other people are completely missing. There's a big difference between what Vegeta knows and what Vegeta has yet to learn.

Vegeta KNOWS how powerful No. 18 and Freeza WERE (with No. 18, he can kind of base it on himself, he knows how powerful HE was when he first fought her)

Ignorance would be a lack of knowledge of potentially how powerful No. 18 HAS gotten but he already has prior knowledge to where she and in by virtue himself, was in the past. When he's weaker than Freeza but making these bold statement, that's not a lack of information, that's a senseless lie. Vegeta might not know what the future holds (Hence Ignorance) but he shouldn't be so stupid to neglect what was directly shown to him in the past.
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Notaka May 30 2018, 09:50 PM Post #112
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 My biggest gripe is that quote by Vegeta.

It's later shown to be a flat out lie when Goku showed himself to be stronger. He didn't say "with the possible exception of Kakarot, my superior position won't change". If he actually just said this line, I'd be on the wagon for Base Saiyans > Frieza.

Meanwhile, Beerus' quote still holds up, and characters in universe acknowledge the fact that Goku still needs Super Saiyan to take down someone of Frieza's level.

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Let's take a look at this very specific quote here and its the very thing you and I think a lot of other people are completely missing. There's a big difference between what Vegeta knows and what Vegeta has yet to learn.


Vegeta KNOWS how powerful No. 18 and Freeza WERE (with No. 18, he can kind of base it on himself, he knows how powerful HE was when he first fought her)

Ignorance would be a lack of knowledge of potentially how powerful No. 18 HAS gotten but he already has prior knowledge to where she and in by virtue himself, was in the past. When he's weaker than Freeza but making these bold statement, that's not a lack of information, that's a senseless lie. Vegeta might not know what the future holds (Hence Ignorance) but he shouldn't be so stupid to neglect what was directly shown to him in the past.


It's not about ignorance or anything, it's about the fact that his statement, from A to Z, is just a product of his overconfidence. His statement is shown to be a lie later on, which hurts its credibility.

It is a senseless lie if it looks that way to you. We're debating about the credibility of it.
Edited by Notaka, May 30 2018, 09:54 PM.
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superperfectnerd May 30 2018, 09:50 PM Post #113
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 Was 18 supposed to punch off Mighty Mask's head?
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Mike XL May 30 2018, 09:54 PM Post #114
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Notaka
May 30 2018, 09:50 PM
My biggest gripe is that quote by Vegeta.

It's later shown to be a flat out lie when Goku showed himself to be stronger. He didn't say "with the possible exception of Kakarot, my superior position won't change". If he actually just said this line, I'd be on the wagon for Base Saiyans > Frieza.

Meanwhile, Beerus' quote still holds up, and characters in universe acknowledge the fact that Goku still needs Super Saiyan to take down someone of Frieza's level.
This, the fact that Goku is stronger confirms that the quote is nothing more than arrogance. Base Goku>Base Vegeta, and that's not even getting into Kaioken where Goku would absolutely murder Vegeta.
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EMIYA May 30 2018, 10:01 PM Post #115
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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What are you talking about? About Piccolo getting spit on and turned to stone like anyone else would've?


No, piccolo got called Trash. Babidi told Dabura to bring the three Base Saiyans and get rid of the trash

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It was true, this has no point.


I actually has a point, because if Piccolo is admitting inferiority but Kaioshin himself is baffled at the Base Saiyans power...what do you think that says?

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Because he's an arrogant prick, like we already went over. Enough has been said that it doesn't need explained again.

You actually do need to explain it. explain to me why Vegeta is a brain dead moron?

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They clearly needed Super Saiyan to win and she had no idea who they were at first. She was likely suppressed as well when they were in base.


They needed it, only because they were inferior at the time, an that inferiority was barely noted. There's nothing saying No. 18 was suppressed.

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Don't even try to use this special if you refuse to accept the Super statement.

Edit: And you still have not given a clear point on the kaioken issue. You're only saying random things at this point.


Why not? It's just another example of why the Base Saiyans>Freeza. Now do I want to say that what is said in the manga, is not something I'm going to use for Super. Super may very well have Base Saiyans weaker than Freeza but that is again, issues of inconsistency. The same way that, I might put the Potara Time Limit on Super but its very clear that aspect was not there in the manga.

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And that special statement has been said by Tarble, I believe. I doubt Tarble saw Frieza's true form so he most likely based Abo's and Cado's strength from his first Form.


The problem with that, which could make sense really, is that Goku's whole reaction kind of makes it that it needs to be Final Form Freeza. Goku doesn't know anything about Freeza's transformations and stuff. The same thing when Kaioshin mentions Freeza. There's just that sense of point that, it's Final Form Freeza that is be addressed, or very much the Freeza that Goku and everyone last fought.

I think getting the kids on First Form Freeza and not much higher would be pretty difficult considering all things. It's admittedly one of those notions that, from a story point, would make sense for it to be First Form Freeza, reactions and interaction just kind of puts it on a different level.
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Topographic Oceans May 30 2018, 10:02 PM Post #116
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 Bills' statement also implies that Shin > Super Saiyan Goku. You can't trust that guy.
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Notaka May 30 2018, 10:07 PM Post #117
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Bills' statement also implies that Shin > Super Saiyan Goku. You can't trust that guy.


"Bills" also doesn't consider Shin a fighter, or doesn't know about him or plainly forgot about him. Honestly, I'd be more amazed at someone beating Frieza, a powerful known tyrant that controlled more than half the universe, than Supreme Kai who is a random dude that hides in the corner of the universe.It's a question of infamy.

Also I take it, you'd rather trust the overconfident guy who eats his words as soon as he gets his a** handed to him?
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+ Pyrus May 30 2018, 10:10 PM Post #118
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 Right, so this forum's now on the wagon for ignoring character statements when it's not 100% believable and backed up by clear feats. 1st Form Freeza > Yeast Kaioshin and SSJ Trunks < Mecha Freeza in my book, just to start things off right. Nobody is trustworthy.

This thread is unnecessary as far as we're all concerned, since we can all make up whatever we want now. Believe that.

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Edited by Pyrus, May 30 2018, 10:11 PM.
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EMIYA May 30 2018, 10:11 PM Post #119
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Topographic Oceans
May 30 2018, 10:02 PM
Bills' statement also implies that Shin > Super Saiyan Goku. You can't trust that guy.
Beerus stated he used 10% of his power, yet the guy still remains stronger than Goku Blue KK10 and beyond.

Beerus said Vegeta used up almost all of his energy fighting Toppo, only for Vegeta to literally go into Blue 10 seconds later.


Beerus says a lot of things that...let's be clear...are full of crap. If Beerus poking a suppress Goku around means we have to ignore pretty much everything in the manga...well that's kind of the reason many people separate the manga from outside sources.
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Topographic Oceans May 30 2018, 10:12 PM Post #120
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Notaka
May 30 2018, 10:07 PM
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Bills' statement also implies that Shin > Super Saiyan Goku. You can't trust that guy.


"Bills" also doesn't consider Shin a fighter, or doesn't know about him or plainly forgot about him. Honestly, I'd be more amazed at someone beating Frieza, a powerful known tyrant that controlled more than half the universe, than Supreme Kai who is a random dude that hides in the corner of the universe.It's a question of infamy.

Also I take it, you'd rather trust the overconfident guy who eats his words as soon as he gets his a** handed to him?
Why is Billis' name in quotes?
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