EMIYA

May 30 2018, 01:24 AM

No it really doesn't. The only reason the 50x boost existed in the first place was because of numbers, that's it. Toriyama himself even noted that he envisioned an amp of only 10x. It's not really the 10x that matters so much as it is the point that, the boost was never in Toriyama's eyes meant to be so big and implications, such as Gotenks, gives a very strong indication of just how small that boost can be.

The Super Saiyan kids are already coming within some contact to Super Saiyan Gohan, whom in terms, was rivaling a guy considered to be stronger than Perfect Cell (most would say against Goku.) Base Gotenks, if nothing else, needs to be stronger than the Super Saiyan kids and frankly, it would be baffling if they weren't at least getting up to the SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta.

A 50x boost would instantly pull any Super Saiyan CG tier character ahead of Fat Boo. And yet, Piccolo has this awkward notion that he wants to check out Gotenks' speed. LIke, that's not the question you should be asking Piccolo. The question you should be asking is why Boo has spontaneously exploded and died the very moment someone 40x+ stronger than him appeared.

Indications of such smaller amplifications have already been given and its not the stories job to fit with your numbers, it is your job to fit with the story. Here's what the story either shows and or/states.

-Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin and downright even tells this to Goku to his face.
-Piccolo is treated as trash and turned to stone while the Base Saiyans are the ones treated as having remarkable energy.
-The Base Kids are capable of giving No. 18 a tough time.
-Vegeta outright states he can win the tournament in Base an at the very least, he knows No. 18 is there at the time.

We literally have several indications if not outright statements from characters supporting the Base Saiyans notion and yet so many people seem to want to "twist" that around to suit their agenda. Things like.

-Piccolo was only referring to Kaioshin's status, even though Goku clearly wasn't asking about that.
-Vegeta was being overconfident, even though he knows darn well how powerful No. 18 and Piccolo were in the past.
- Everyone was supresssed even though Babidi and Dabura were able to specifically point out everyone and could even tell Kaioshin and Kibito were there.

And heck, if push comes to shove, I can easily have Kid Gohan 50x+ stronger than everyone in the Cell Games, because not one thing says he can't. Something that's even better, is to specifically have Piccolo weaker. People say that Piccolo MUST be on Super Saiyan Vegeta's level or something in the CG, well not one thing states that he does.

Either way, it is actually made very clear where the Base Saiyans stand and we are given several statements and feats supporting that notion. There are several ways ways to move the characters and numbers around but the end result has to match what the story wants, not what the reader wants.

Take this for example:

Gotenks was all but outright stated to have surpassed his Super Saiyan form in the ROSAT in base. That's what Piccolo's whole deal was, that the current Gotenks would never defeat Super Boo yet this new Post-Gotenks actually inflicts a level of confidencece from him. If we were to use the SEG amps, Gotenks is now 50x+ stronger than he was before.

Now, does one think Goku and Vegeta are 50x stronger than the kids? I think most would say 3x is pretty intense. Yet a dance fusion of Goku and Vegeta is considered powerful enough to worry Gotenks Boo. Logically and number wise, this is absolutely impossible but it doesn't matter what the supposed "numbers" are. What matters is what the story deems and in such a case here, the story deemed a fusion of Goku and Vegeta to be 50x+ stronger than Gotenks' own Pre-ROSAT fusion.

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Then what do you say about 18's complete confidence in winning the prize money?

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Point is, Vegeta is terrible at gauging strength

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She can't sense ki and has no idea how strong the Saiyans have gotten. The last one she saw in a fight was ASSJ Vegeta against Semi-Cell. By not allowing them to transform, I understand why she'd like her chances.

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Thing is he doesn't have to gauge something new in this case. 18 trounced him as a SSJ so he knows how strong she is. If he's < Freeza in Base, yet says he can win a tournament she's participating in without transforming, while she's sitting right behind him, that's not arrogance. That's the actions of a moron.

That'd be like me getting schooled by LeBron James in a game of 21, then practicing a few months for a rematch. Then on the day of that rematch I learn I have to wear high heels. My genuine reaction and belief? "That's fine, I still have the advantage.".

Am I arrogant or stupid?

Thiln

May 30 2018, 08:02 PM

Personally, I still maintain the argument that Vegeta was being shortsighted. Discarding the fact that the kids apparently felt the need to charge an attack in order to finish #18 when they should be many times stronger than her now in their transformed states, there's the ever present yet strangely unacknowledged fact that Goku still has a trump card in the form of the Kaioken. Unless Vegeta has grossly magnified his strength to the point that it makes the initial gap between himself and Goku back in the Saiyan arc look paltry by comparison, he would have no advantage in the tournament.

EMIYA

May 29 2018, 08:19 PM

superperfectnerd

May 29 2018, 07:22 PM

If the base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo at this tournament, then base Gohan was also stronger than Piccolo during The Cell Games and yet people claim Piccolo is ssj tier in The Cell Games. Unless you think ssj Gohan is 50 times stronger than ssj Vegeta in The Cell Games (laughale), then how can the ssj2s at Boo saga be still relevant to ssj2 Gohan whilst simultaneously stronger than Cell Games Piccolo in base PLUS 7 years of training on top?

Base saiyans being above Piccolo never made sense in the Boo saga anyway unless they can augment their base power to be near ssj levels.

Cell Games:

SSJ Gohan: 60
Base Gohan: 20


SSJ Goku: 15
Base Goku: 5

SSJ Vegeta: 12
Base Vegeta: 4

Piccolo: 10

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BOO ARC

SSJ Gohan: 40
Base Gohan: 13

SSJ Vegeta: 48
Base Vegeta: 16

SSJ Goku: 70
Base Goku: 23

Done, literally done right there because I have no need to put a 50x amp for something where heavy implication is given that it isn't even that high. I could lower Gohan down a little bit more if I wanted. As long as the anonymity between CG Gohan and the rest remains, it's easy to CG Gohan anywhere. At the same time, I have absolutely no reason to put Piccolo as high as he he is.

The only place I need to have Piccolo is stronger than he was when fighting No. 17. Other than that, I can go anywhere I want. I can have him on Imperfect Cell, maybe Semi-Perfect Cell. There is more than enough leg room to move around and if you want to use a 50x amp, fine, that just means CG Gohan has a huge gap over everyone. Is it absurd? Perhaps but absolutely nothing says it can't happen.

After all, if Freeza can have a nearly 50x gap over Goku, why can't Gohan have it over everyone else? Does it sound absurd? Well Toriyama thought the exact same thing with SSJ Goku and Freeza.

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Zarbon couldn’t land a hit on Vegeta despite being over 90% of him. Using Goten not landing a hit on Gohan to say there’s a big gap is just a really poor argument, especially since that’s from their first sparring match and not their second sparring match where they’re both going all out and have their auras flared.

Both Trunks and Vegeta are sweating, auras flared and Trunks even lands a hit and throughout the whole thing, both are dead serious.

By that logic Kid Trunks must be on par with Vegeta.
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And as for Toriyama's involvement in Super, it's made pretty clear that Toriyama is, at best, a minor supervisor, both to the anime and to his manga and gives a lot of free excuses for Toei and Torotaro. In fact, considering the amount of literal filler in the anime, I have a strong feeling had about as much input to the anime as Toei's janitor. I highly doubt Toriyama is siting at the storyboard with the higher ups and goes...

"This is nice but you know what make it better...? Frog Ginyu..."

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Then kaioken x 20 Goku would be far stronger than ssj2 Goku?

Gohan didn't notice he was 4 times stronger than his dad? He's stronger than his ssj father in base?

superperfectnerd

May 30 2018, 09:10 PM

EMIYA

May 29 2018, 08:19 PM

superperfectnerd

May 29 2018, 07:22 PM

If the base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo at this tournament, then base Gohan was also stronger than Piccolo during The Cell Games and yet people claim Piccolo is ssj tier in The Cell Games. Unless you think ssj Gohan is 50 times stronger than ssj Vegeta in The Cell Games (laughale), then how can the ssj2s at Boo saga be still relevant to ssj2 Gohan whilst simultaneously stronger than Cell Games Piccolo in base PLUS 7 years of training on top?

Base saiyans being above Piccolo never made sense in the Boo saga anyway unless they can augment their base power to be near ssj levels.

Cell Games:

SSJ Gohan: 60
Base Gohan: 20


SSJ Goku: 15
Base Goku: 5

SSJ Vegeta: 12
Base Vegeta: 4

Piccolo: 10

---
---

BOO ARC

SSJ Gohan: 40
Base Gohan: 13

SSJ Vegeta: 48
Base Vegeta: 16

SSJ Goku: 70
Base Goku: 23

Done, literally done right there because I have no need to put a 50x amp for something where heavy implication is given that it isn't even that high. I could lower Gohan down a little bit more if I wanted. As long as the anonymity between CG Gohan and the rest remains, it's easy to CG Gohan anywhere. At the same time, I have absolutely no reason to put Piccolo as high as he he is.

The only place I need to have Piccolo is stronger than he was when fighting No. 17. Other than that, I can go anywhere I want. I can have him on Imperfect Cell, maybe Semi-Perfect Cell. There is more than enough leg room to move around and if you want to use a 50x amp, fine, that just means CG Gohan has a huge gap over everyone. Is it absurd? Perhaps but absolutely nothing says it can't happen.

After all, if Freeza can have a nearly 50x gap over Goku, why can't Gohan have it over everyone else? Does it sound absurd? Well Toriyama thought the exact same thing with SSJ Goku and Freeza.

Quote:

 

Zarbon couldn’t land a hit on Vegeta despite being over 90% of him. Using Goten not landing a hit on Gohan to say there’s a big gap is just a really poor argument, especially since that’s from their first sparring match and not their second sparring match where they’re both going all out and have their auras flared.

Both Trunks and Vegeta are sweating, auras flared and Trunks even lands a hit and throughout the whole thing, both are dead serious.

By that logic Kid Trunks must be on par with Vegeta.
---
---

And as for Toriyama's involvement in Super, it's made pretty clear that Toriyama is, at best, a minor supervisor, both to the anime and to his manga and gives a lot of free excuses for Toei and Torotaro. In fact, considering the amount of literal filler in the anime, I have a strong feeling had about as much input to the anime as Toei's janitor. I highly doubt Toriyama is siting at the storyboard with the higher ups and goes...

"This is nice but you know what make it better...? Frog Ginyu..."

Then kaioken x 20 Goku would be far stronger than ssj2 Goku?

Gohan didn't notice he was 4 times stronger than his dad? He's stronger than his ssj father in base? I thought the boy was supposed to be smart and observant. Goku goes 50% of his max for Korin and Gohan doesn't say "gee dad that was half? It was a bit low, no wonder I kept nearly killing you when we sparred for a whole year with no other company or distractions."

superperfectnerd

May 30 2018, 09:10 PM

Then kaioken x 20 Goku would be far stronger than ssj2 Goku?

Gohan didn't notice he was 4 times stronger than his dad? He's stronger than his ssj father in base?

EMIYA

May 30 2018, 09:19 PM

No it's because Kaioken is unimportant to the story.

Toriyama is either retconning it or more than likely, just trying to shove it under the rug. The same way he seemed to shove SSJ2 Adult Gohan under the rug, because all the lines post-babidi go under the inference that Gohan never transformed before.