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- The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai goes uninterrupted...
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| The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai goes uninterrupted... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 27 2018, 04:02 PM (4,552 Views) | |
| Dankness Lava | May 29 2018, 05:59 AM Post #61 |
Dankness Forever
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It came out first after all. |
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| + Pointer | May 29 2018, 07:15 AM Post #62 |
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And yet vegeta was 10000 % sure that he can solo the tournament in BASE 
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| Thiln | May 29 2018, 12:53 PM Post #63 |
 
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Myopia can pose a severe impairment to Vegeta at times. I can't help but think that his euphoria over having the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to battle his deep-seated rival may have been clouding his judgement. After all, his expressed reason for enrolling in the tournament was so that he could fight Goku; the rest mattered little to him. Moreover, if you really get down to the particulars, his assuredness is misplaced for the simple reason that Goku, with the restrictive prohibition of Super Saiyan, would still have access to Kaioken. So unless he feels he managed to close the gap that existed between himself and Goku back at the Cell Games while elevating his strength a sum that's greater than whatever amount Goku improved by multiplied by 10, Vegeta's confidence would be shortsighted - and the Kaioken x20 might have been identified by Vegeta from the afterlife as well during the Freeza arc (assuming the same accommodations that enabled him to view Goku's Super Saiyan 3 and the fusion dance existed years back during his first death), meaning that his power would have to be over 20 times greater than Goku's for his confidence to hold any validity. Now in the case of #18, I think I pointed out previously how she was able to avoid Trunks' Kiai Ho projectile. A few times Goten insists the blast needs to be restrained in its potency to prevent #18 from being killed, but the emission of an aura from the Super Saiyan pair seems to indicate that the exerted force was still a greatly earnest amount. #18 would have to be at least as close to the kids as Vegeta was to Freeza in his heavily restricted final form in order to accomplish that physical reactionary feat - and the implication seems to be that she would be stronger since the Kiai Ho was condensed and charged, unlike Freeza's casual Death Beam. Plus, if the kids were virtually 50 times stronger than #18, they wouldn't even need ki attacks. From a relativistic standpoint, they could just blitz #18 and tap her on the back of the head in order to render her unconscious. |
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| + Son-Goku | May 29 2018, 02:29 PM Post #64 |
孫悟空
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I agree with this statement. |
 RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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| Mike XL | May 29 2018, 03:03 PM Post #65 |
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Vegeta also thought he could beat Freeza post Krillen zenkai and Perfect Cell, lol. Seriously, we're using statements from Vegeta of all people? And Toriyama works on Toei with the anime, ergo that's the canon successor to the Z manga |
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| Notaka | May 29 2018, 03:14 PM Post #66 |
Always Wright
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I have major problems with Vegeta's quote. For one, he always eats his words back(Except he doesn't admit he's wrong), second he includes Goku who Vegeta hasn't sensed before, yet he still assumes that his "superior" position doesn't change. Yes, I know, "Vegeta was never proven wrong so you can't call him out on this", but the matter of fact is, his overconfidence and arrogance are integral part of his character, it's a recurring character tic for him to underestimate his opponents, at the same time overestimating himself, only to get his a** kicked ? You mean to tell me, just for this single scene, He's right as opposed to the 99% other scenes for him? Despite him including Goku who he has never sensed before? I refuse to believe this and I'll stay in my own bias. Then you have 18's fight against the boys, which in itself isn't clear. Yes they were hanging with the likes of 18, but why are we to assume that she was in full power? She could most likely have held back. What if she went out of control for an instant and killed her opponent? All that hard work would go to waste. And then if the boys were so much stronger than her, why bother go into Super Saiyan? Why not just opt for a kiai that knocks her out and reduce the risk of killing her, since both of them should be stronger than her? Base Saiyans > Frieza only has implications on its side, as compared to Super flat out having a direct quote from Beerus. Yes Beerus is unreliable, but he's the lesser of the two evils compared to Vegeta. And I think that Super's canon is the anime, given it existed before the manga and has Toriyama's input on it. |
 "My name is Kakyoin Noriaki!" Thanks to Graffiti for the Sig!  | |
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| TrunksinSwimmingTrunks | May 29 2018, 04:21 PM Post #67 |
Formerly known as daman
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But Mighty Mask literally could not beat 18. They felt the need to split apart in order to dodge her attack, because they lacked the ability to move properly. edit: as a SSJ Edited by TrunksinSwimmingTrunks, May 29 2018, 04:22 PM.
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kamizake pyro is a girl? olsiw Make the old spam section viewable plz | |
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| EMIYA | May 29 2018, 05:03 PM Post #68 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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No. 16 outright stated that despite Cell's increase in power, Vegeta was stronger in every way. Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4 No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!” Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.” Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.” Vegeta's superiority was literally proclaimed by other sources, not just himself. Meanwhile, Vegeta was literally the only person who could even see Freeza's attacks. Everyone else couldn't do jack to his third form. He is literally the only person there until Goku comes who can so much as see Freeza's movements. He's powered up, he's the strongest one there. Why wouldn't he be confident? Vegeta has never once proclaimed something that was outright false. He never faced someone that was specifically noted to be stronger than him, especially after fighting them before and proclaimed he could win. Honestly this whole "arrogant" stick is a whole load of bull. If Piccolo or No. 18 got stronger in the last 7 years, that would add uncertain information that Vegeta doesn't know. Let me put it his way, Vegeta has never lied before. If Base Vegeta is weaker than Freeza but he's confident that he can win a tournament with No. 18 and Piccolo there, that's not overconfidence or arrogance. That's a straight up, bold faced lie. Vegea is literally and knowingly lying, for whatever reason. And I can say that while Vegeta is many things, he isn't a two-faced dirty liar. And from the Base Kids giving No. 18 a hard time, Vegeta's confidence in the tournament, the Base Saiyans being treated as the ones with marvelous energy, Kaioshin, etc. There's far more evidence supporting Base Saiyans>>>Freeza than anything Beerus has said. |
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| + Son-Goku | May 29 2018, 05:30 PM Post #69 |
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孫悟空
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Goten and Trunks need to transform into a Super Saiyan to defeat 18. Two characters who are both close to Gohan. Yet Gohan and others are supposed to be above 18 and Piccolo in their bases? That doesn't work. |
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RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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| + Clearin | May 29 2018, 05:35 PM Post #70 |
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These restrictions contradict each other imo. For one thing, Vegeta would in no way give a s*** about destroying the stadium, and when it becomes apparent that he's weaker than Goku, I can see him fighting in a way that endangers the audience (not necessarily trying to kill them, just not caring if he does). I also don't believe Vegeta would stay in base form in that case, and Goku himself would probably turn Super Saiyan at that point since he doesn't care about the base rule that Gohan made up. No forfeits goes against in character because Piccolo quite literally in-character forfeited against Shin. Imo if everyone was in character then the tournament would either end at Goku vs Vegeta when the stage gets destroyed, or Goku would let Vegeta have the win to avoid endangering the audience when Vegeta starts being reckless. At that point pretty much everyone would either get easily beaten by Vegeta, and/or would give Vegeta the win for the same reason. Edited by Clearin, May 29 2018, 05:35 PM.
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| EMIYA | May 29 2018, 07:19 PM Post #71 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Goten literally couldn't land a single hit on Gohan (while people like Cell, who was 1-2 steps a head of Goku, was having an all out brawl with Goku and beaten to an exhausted state.) Plus, Gohan didn't even think Goten was ready for the tournament. Well technically he says that if Goten continues training, he might be able to enter the Budokai. Which basically means Gohan thinks as of right now, he's not ready. The point is made that, the kids are still away from the likes of the adults but their power and seemingly fast growth, makes them a dangerous contender for the future. Gohan's own interaction with Goten is actually not much different than Trunks' interaction with Vegeta. Just as Gohan was surprised by Goten's potential, Vegeta himself is easily caught off guard by Trunks. Vegeta even works out a sweat and of all things, gets hit by Trunks. However, we know Trunks is still greatly below Vegeta. People seem to want to use this as an example of Goten~Gohan  Which, had evidence before and after not been given, that might have been the case. However we know from lines later that Goten is still away from Gohan and that such an image can easily be chalked up to Gohan lowering himself down just enough for training. Plus, at this point, with exception of Vegeta (who I doubt will train with Gohan) Goten is the only person around that is worth enough of a training partner. In other words, despite several statements saying that Gohan still has a good edge on Goten, people use that illustration as a way of trying to prove that Goten is on par with Gohan. Then one might as well use this illustration to prove Trunks is on par with Vegeta. 
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| superperfectnerd | May 29 2018, 07:22 PM Post #72 |
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If the base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo at this tournament, then base Gohan was also stronger than Piccolo during The Cell Games and yet people claim Piccolo is ssj tier in The Cell Games. Unless you think ssj Gohan is 50 times stronger than ssj Vegeta in The Cell Games (laughale), then how can the ssj2s at Boo saga be still relevant to ssj2 Gohan whilst simultaneously stronger than Cell Games Piccolo in base PLUS 7 years of training on top? Base saiyans being above Piccolo never made sense in the Boo saga anyway unless they can augment their base power to be near ssj levels. Edited by superperfectnerd, May 29 2018, 07:24 PM.
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| + Six Trails | May 29 2018, 07:53 PM Post #73 |
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Zarbon couldn’t land a hit on Vegeta despite being over 90% of him. Using Goten not landing a hit on Gohan to say there’s a big gap is just a really poor argument, especially since that’s from their first sparring match and not their second sparring match where they’re both going all out and have their auras flared. |
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| EMIYA | May 29 2018, 08:19 PM Post #74 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Cell Games: SSJ Gohan: 60 Base Gohan: 20 SSJ Goku: 15 Base Goku: 5 SSJ Vegeta: 12 Base Vegeta: 4 Piccolo: 10 --- --- BOO ARC SSJ Gohan: 40 Base Gohan: 13 SSJ Vegeta: 48 Base Vegeta: 16 SSJ Goku: 70 Base Goku: 23 Done, literally done right there because I have no need to put a 50x amp for something where heavy implication is given that it isn't even that high. I could lower Gohan down a little bit more if I wanted. As long as the anonymity between CG Gohan and the rest remains, it's easy to CG Gohan anywhere. At the same time, I have absolutely no reason to put Piccolo as high as he he is. The only place I need to have Piccolo is stronger than he was when fighting No. 17. Other than that, I can go anywhere I want. I can have him on Imperfect Cell, maybe Semi-Perfect Cell. There is more than enough leg room to move around and if you want to use a 50x amp, fine, that just means CG Gohan has a huge gap over everyone. Is it absurd? Perhaps but absolutely nothing says it can't happen. After all, if Freeza can have a nearly 50x gap over Goku, why can't Gohan have it over everyone else? Does it sound absurd? Well Toriyama thought the exact same thing with SSJ Goku and Freeza.
Both Trunks and Vegeta are sweating, auras flared and Trunks even lands a hit and throughout the whole thing, both are dead serious. By that logic Kid Trunks must be on par with Vegeta. --- --- And as for Toriyama's involvement in Super, it's made pretty clear that Toriyama is, at best, a minor supervisor, both to the anime and to his manga and gives a lot of free excuses for Toei and Torotaro. In fact, considering the amount of literal filler in the anime, I have a strong feeling had about as much input to the anime as Toei's janitor. I highly doubt Toriyama is siting at the storyboard with the higher ups and goes... "This is nice but you know what make it better...? Frog Ginyu..." Edited by EMIYA, May 29 2018, 08:21 PM.
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| + Pyrus | May 29 2018, 08:36 PM Post #75 |
 
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That doesn't mean much here. Toriyama is more hands-on with the manga.
Yes, we are, because he could be lying, but we don't know until he's proven wrong. That's where everybody goes wrong when handling Vegeta discussions. "He's an arrogant prick" doesn't disprove what he said. Contradictory feats and statements do. Every character has been wrong at some point. People just latch onto Vegeta more often because he's the secondary protagonist usually used to prop up the new threat and/or Goku.
That's not what the interviews indicate. Toriyama's notes are the true "canon" succession of his original manga. Toyotaro and Toei both adapt from that outline. As far as I've read (and you may have evidence to the contrary), Toriyama has to personally approve every page from Toyotaro before it's finalized, and the two have a close mentor-student relationship. On the other hand, Toei is a large company with a plethora of writers that clearly do not communicate with one another episode to episode, and Toriyama isn't there to supervise every little detail.
Vegeta will admit when he's wrong or outclassed if he knows he is. He admitted he couldn't handle Freeza multiple times, he admitted the androids and Cell surpassed him, he admitted Goku surpassed him at the Cell Games, he admitted Gohan also surpassed him, he admitted Majin Boo was too strong for him, and so on. He's arrogant, but only when he has little reason to believe he's been surpassed. He didn't know Goku had gotten much stronger, and thus assumed he would win the tournament regardless. At this point, even we as the audience would have no evidence Vegeta was wrong either.
Yes. Yes, I do mean to tell you he's right until proven wrong. That's how statements are handled, otherwise you slide into the territory of making things up for your own personal biases.
The debate's been done to death, but basically, you could argue the same thing. If she was so much stronger than them, why not just use more power and knock them out of the ring? Problem solved, she gets to move on and get her money, which is the only reason she joined the tournament in the first place. She clearly wasn't superior to the Super Saiyan kids, considering she shat herself when Trunks's suppressed blast whizzed by her. She could very well be stronger than them without Super Saiyan, though.
^ Edited by Pyrus, May 29 2018, 08:37 PM.
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