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The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai goes uninterrupted...
Topic Started: May 27 2018, 04:02 PM (4,553 Views)
+ Saiyan Paladin May 28 2018, 07:45 PM Post #46
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Pyrus
May 28 2018, 07:11 PM
GreatSaiyaman123
May 28 2018, 06:07 PM
EMIYA
May 28 2018, 12:10 AM
He and the others cannot feel either Kaioshin or Kibito's Ki, so they're left wondering exactly how powerful they are.
Then how Piccolo knew Kaioshin was stronger than him?
How did Ginyu and Freeza make estimates?
They were only able to make estimates after engaging their opponents. Ginyu's 60,000 line was only what he thought it would take to beat his subordinates.


Sorry for the double post.
Edited by Saiyan Paladin, May 28 2018, 07:46 PM.
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+ Pyrus May 28 2018, 07:52 PM Post #47
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 You're pretty wrong there, bucko.

Piccolo could only know Yeast Kaioshin was stronger than him because he thought it was the Grand Kaio at first, so he had to have surmised it was a god of some sort due to Kami's influence.
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GreatSaiyaman123 May 28 2018, 08:11 PM Post #48
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 So Piccolo knew he was stronger because of knowledge? Dai Kaio is >> Piccolo too?
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+ Saiyan Paladin May 28 2018, 08:13 PM Post #49
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 And how does he have any clue how strong a god is supposed to be? He's making an assumption based off what he believes Shin's stature to be. Seems like Piccolo was more afraid of the rank than anything else.

Ginyu and Freeza only make estimates of Goku's strength after fighting him. Ginyu thinks Goku will cap out at 85,000 after they duke it out a bit, and Freeza mentions Goku is holding back after their fight had gone on quite a while. Piccolo (or the Kami part of him) only believes Shin is some high level god and assumes he is quite powerful because of it.
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EMIYA May 28 2018, 08:27 PM Post #50
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 I can guarantee that when when Goku asks if the difference between Piccolo and Kaioshin is that much, he's not asking about his god status.
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GreatSaiyaman123 May 28 2018, 08:52 PM Post #51
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 That's pretty obvious. The question is how Piccolo can answer him if, according to you, Kaioshin's Ki cannot be sensed.
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+ Saiyan Paladin May 28 2018, 08:59 PM Post #52
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EMIYA
May 28 2018, 08:27 PM
I can guarantee that when when Goku asks if the difference between Piccolo and Kaioshin is that much, he's not asking about his god status.
It doesn't matter what Goku is asking. The point is that they cannot sense Shin's ki, they never actually fight, and Piccolo's forfeit was based on him believing Shin to be an upper deity. That belief of Shin's stature is why Piccolo expects Kaioshin to hold tremendous power.
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EMIYA May 28 2018, 09:02 PM Post #53
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Because it's the narratives way of building up Kaioshin. Until Piccolo's "Fight" everyone is left wondering exactly how powerful this new guy is and Piccolo's narration gives emphasis on the fact that, yes, apparently this new guy really is powerful. Piccolo even readily admits that he's more powerful than him. It doesn't really matter how he knows this, it's just a notion of truth we take from the narration.

It's the same way we don't need Kaioshin to fight Freeza to prove he can one shot him, we as the readers are intended to take his word unless specifically proven otherwise. Nothing disproves Piccolo's notion that Kaioshin is stronger than him, so whether he pulled his words out of his butt or not, we as the readers are meant to take his word seriously.

I'd also like to point out that, Piccolo's remark about Kaioshin is almost directly based on Power, not his godliness and noted by Herms.

Edited by EMIYA, May 28 2018, 09:03 PM.
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Mike XL May 28 2018, 09:53 PM Post #54
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 If the base Saiyans were around Piccolo, then they wouldn't been anywhere near teen Gohan at SSJ 2. Vegeta was just being a cocky prick as usual. Piccolo knew Kaioshin was the God of the Universe, that's why he freaked out and quit. At the end of the day, the Buu saga is a mess with statements and feats that are all over the place. And to top it all off, it was confirmed that the Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, let alone Piccolo. Piccolo or Kaioshin are the only logical answers here, and even Kaioshin is doubtful as he was in awe of the base Saiyans.
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+ Saiyan Paladin May 28 2018, 10:27 PM Post #55
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EMIYA
May 28 2018, 09:02 PM
Because it's the narratives way of building up Kaioshin. Until Piccolo's "Fight" everyone is left wondering exactly how powerful this new guy is and Piccolo's narration gives emphasis on the fact that, yes, apparently this new guy really is powerful. Piccolo even readily admits that he's more powerful than him. It doesn't really matter how he knows this, it's just a notion of truth we take from the narration.

It's the same way we don't need Kaioshin to fight Freeza to prove he can one shot him, we as the readers are intended to take his word unless specifically proven otherwise. Nothing disproves Piccolo's notion that Kaioshin is stronger than him, so whether he pulled his words out of his butt or not, we as the readers are meant to take his word seriously.

I'd also like to point out that, Piccolo's remark about Kaioshin is almost directly based on Power, not his godliness and noted by Herms.

The narrative is saying Shin is really, really powerful because he's a Kaioshin. That's the whole point. That whole segment is a build up leading to the reveal of an upper deity. Piccolo is assuming Shin is far stronger than him because he's a god, and Goku takes his word for it.
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EMIYA May 28 2018, 10:34 PM Post #56
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"I am the bone of my sword."
Quote:
 
If the base Saiyans were around Piccolo, then they wouldn't been anywhere near teen Gohan at SSJ 2.


Based on what exactly?

Quote:
 
Vegeta was just being a cocky prick as usual


Vegeta knows exactly how strong everyone was during the Cell Games, knows No. 18 is fighting, certainly finds out Piccolo is fighting and never once changes his tune until he finds out that Goku has gotten much more powerful in the last 7 years than he anticipated. There's a big difference between being "cocky" and being "mentally handicapped." Vegeta's arrogance was never built on false ideas. There was always a truth to them that was then discredited by sources beyond his knowledge or control.

Vegeta, never once in the series, came up to somebody who was clearly more powerful than him directly, and proclaim he was going to whoop them. There was always a semblance of truth to it. Again Perfect Cell, No. 16 downright states that Vegeta is still more powerful. Against Fat Boo, his power is treated as a joke to Vegeta. Against Freeza, Vegeta was the only person at the time who could even see his attacks. Vegeta's only problem was that he didn't look beyond the bigger picture.

Quote:
 
Piccolo knew Kaioshin was the God of the Universe, that's why he freaked out and quit.


Herms says otherwise...

Quote:
 
Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess
.

Of course, Piccolo can still show reference to Kaioshin, however it's very clear what his intentions to Goku are meant to be. Because as already noted, Goku isn't asking, nor does he care about Kaioshin's placement in the hierarchy.

Quote:
 
And to top it all off, it was confirmed that the Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, let alone Piccolo.


It was also confirmed that Beerus used 10% of his power against Rage Vegeta but I doubt anyone here is going to say KK10 Blue Goku at the Universe 6 Tournament is stronger than Beerus. Frankly, several statements and implications given in the manga give far more impact than a single line from Beerus that could easily be interpreted in a number of ways.

Quote:
 
The narrative is saying Shin is really, really powerful because he's a Kaioshin. That's the whole point. That whole segment is a build up leading to the reveal of an upper deity. Piccolo is assuming Shin is far stronger than him because he's a god, and Goku takes his word for it.


Then give a reason why it isn't true? The point of narration isn't to give readers false knowledge. Again, I don't need Kaioshin to kill Freeza to prove he can one shot him. When Kaioshin states that he can one shot Freeza, or when Piccolo states that Kaioshin is a whole other dimension above him, specifically referring to power to Goku, these points are treated as undeniable facts until they are proven otherwise.


Edited by EMIYA, May 28 2018, 10:38 PM.
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Mike XL May 29 2018, 04:14 AM Post #57
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 You're using evidence to apparently prove your point, while simultaneously ignoring stronger stated evidence that base Goku is weaker than Freeza. There isn't really much of a debate to be had here, it was stated that Base Goku is weaker than Freeza, ergo, much weaker than Piccolo from the Buu arc.

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+ Pyrus May 29 2018, 05:33 AM Post #58
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 Wasn't stated in the manga, or the Super manga for that matter, not that Super matters here at all.

As for that question before, there's nothing saying otherwise. Boom. That's some beans and bacon for you right there, eat up.
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Dankness Lava May 29 2018, 05:38 AM Post #59
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Dankness Forever

 But the anime is the main continuity in super?
Edited by Dankness Lava, May 29 2018, 05:38 AM.
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+ Pyrus May 29 2018, 05:43 AM Post #60
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 If you want it to be.
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