PF18

Jun 2 2018, 12:59 AM

Son-Goku

Jun 2 2018, 12:37 AM

PF18

Jun 1 2018, 11:18 PM

Am i missing something? How does this get to 9 pages? It totally depends on whether or not Piccolo forfeits to Kaioshin out of respect like he did in the original story. In pure power Piccolo is by far the strongest. (assuming that none of the Saiyans can transform.)

That's what's been being discussed. Some people believe Piccolo>Base saiayns.

Didn't Beerus confirm that Piccolo>Base Saiyans? I have no idea how this is even up for debate. There's nothing to contradict this other than Vegeta making a cocky comment that cannot be taken seriously.

Topographic Oceans

Jun 2 2018, 07:05 PM

I'm a firm believer in base Saiyans > Freeza, but I'd like to present an alternative. Instead of being stronger or weaker than the Saiyans... what if Freeza was EQUAL to them? It's a possibility.......

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I'm not too sure why Beerus,has who been proven wrong before, is treated as any more credible than Vegeta. That's literally what this whole thing has boiled down to. Vegeta is cocky so we can't trust anything he says but Beerus, even though he's been wrong before, is given the free pass. There is way too much logical fallacy going on here right now that it has to be noted.

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1.) Ad Hominem
People are constantly attacking Vegeta's "Character" and trying to undermine it, instead of actually looking at the scenes and statements themselves.

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2.) Appeal to Authority
This seems to be used for Beerus. Beerus is the one in charge so he must automatically be correct.

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It's specifically the first one though, as it's very clear people are not trying to actually answer the "Debate" as much as just undermine Vegeta as a character. But that's not how it works here. That's not how any debate works, it's about collecting the information and putting it altogether to form a congruent idea.

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1.) Vegeta states he can win the tournament in Base.
- At this point right now, we don't have much information to go by and we have to accept the Statement has fact. That's what writing in the series is supposed to do, give the readers information. Right now, Vegeta can beat everyone in Base.

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2.) The base kids fight No. 18.
- Here, we get direct feats of the kids and No. 18, People say that No. 18 was holding back but that's kind of the burden of proof on you. I myself can point out to specific feats of the kids and No. 18's statement that Mighty Mask was absurdly strong. I can also say that the kids were handicapped because it is directly noted in the manga. Saying that No. 18 was "holding back" relies too much on outside knowledge that is not presented.

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Which leads to basically the "Devil's Proof in that, one can't prove or disprove No. 18 holding back. Personally, I take more reference to what is directly shown, than what is possibly shown. Either way, we know that Vegeta is stronger than the kids, and from feats and statements, it would be easy for Vegeta to be stronger than No. 18.

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3.) Piccolo directly states, to Goku that Kaioshin is stronger than him so we know Kaioshin>Piccolo.
-At this point, we don't necessarily know where Kaioshin, Piccolo and the Base Saiyans stand with each other

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4.) The Base Saiyans are singled out as the ones with marvelous energy.
- Once everyone arrives, it is Gohan, Goku and Vegea, all in their base forms, that are deemed the ones with marvelous energy. Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito are then put on the "trash" list an told be rid of. Once again, this is just more information pointing to Vegeta's statement from earlier, it backs him up more. People again have tried to twist this around, saying that they were sensing their SSj energy (even though they were shocked to see the transformations.) People have said they were using some kind of special energy sensor (again still shocked by the transformations.)

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5.)Goku and Yakon
- When Goku finally transforms, this gives a clear cut to where Vegeta's statement can end. We now know as readers that Vegeta is weaker than Goku and that he is weaker than Base Goku. This does not mean that every other single bit of information is negated, this means we have a relatively clear condition of where Vegeta must stop.

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-Vegeta states he can win the tournament in Base

Vegeta> Goku,No.18,Gohan, Kids, Piccolo, etc.

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-The Kids appear to have a roughly even fight with No. 18, if not overall in No. 18's favor, we also know that the kids are significantly lower than Vegeta. We can also infer that Piccolo is stronger than No. 18.

Vegeta>Piccolo>No.18.>~Base Kids, Goku, Gohan, etc.

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- Piccolo is unfortunately treated as trash to the Base Saiyans, and their superiority to him is duly noted, we also know that Vegeta does not see Gohan as being much of a fighter now and even Goku notices Gohan's lack of training.

Vegeta>Goku>Gohan>Piccolo>No.18>~Base Kids

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-Lastly, we find out that Goku is more powerful than expected an surpasses Vegeta.

Goku>Vegeta>Gohan>Piccolo>No.18>~Base Kids.

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There, that's how it's supposed to be done, by taking all the information directly given to you and trying to form, as best as possible, a congruent idea. It's not about twisting the information, or burden of proof or more so attack the character of a person to undermine them.

EMIYA

Jun 2 2018, 09:52 PM

Let me put it this way, we have direct feats showing the Base Kids and No. 18 fighting each other but ambiguity is used to say that No. 18 is holing back.

What's the difference than in saying that Base Goku was holding back (which he technically was) and that Beerus only felt the little bit of energy that off Goku instead of his actual full power? At least with Goku, we know he was holding back, he was directly stated to do so by Kaio-Sama. No. 18 holding back though relies more on uncertain ambiguity that's never exactly proven in the series.

So I feel if we're going to say No. 18 held back and thus we can't hold an exact line of where she stands, we're going to have to do the exact same thing with Goku and Beerus.

Notaka

Jun 2 2018, 09:59 PM

EMIYA

Jun 2 2018, 09:52 PM

Let me put it this way, we have direct feats showing the Base Kids and No. 18 fighting each other but ambiguity is used to say that No. 18 is holing back.

What's the difference than in saying that Base Goku was holding back (which he technically was) and that Beerus only felt the little bit of energy that off Goku instead of his actual full power? At least with Goku, we know he was holding back, he was directly stated to do so by Kaio-Sama. No. 18 holding back though relies more on uncertain ambiguity that's never exactly proven in the series.

So I feel if we're going to say No. 18 held back and thus we can't hold an exact line of where she stands, we're going to have to do the exact same thing with Goku and Beerus.

What direct feats ? Them being sent into the fighting stage multiple times ?

Alright, give me Kaio-Sama's quote on him, because as far as I remember, he didn't state Goku was suppressed when Beerus was checking him off. And then there's the fact that when Goku transformed, it prompted Beerus to say "Now I see how you defeated Frieza", meaning that he had to go Super Saiyan and surpass his base level to make Beerus understand how he defeated Frieza.

Super Saiyan Goku > Frieza > Base Goku, powering up then transforming into a Super Saiyan.

I'll stop saying No. 18 was holding back. But there's still the fact the Kids needed to go SSJ against her because they were losing and had a disadvantage in this getup, and be fairly confident she could handle a suppressed blast from them. So objectively speaking:

SSJ Kids > 18 > Kids

and saying Goku was suppressed when Beerus checked him also relies on ambiguity. Nothing tells us he was holding back when he got checked by Beerus.

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Nothing tells the opposite either

Nevertheless we had a lot of scenes where goku and co were initially suppressed.

Trunks against frieza ( battlepower 5)
goku when tarble checked his power

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There are more. They tend to suppress themselves to fool the opponent

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When goku was said to be below frieza he had absolutely no reason not to be suppressed.

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He had no auro. Nothing suggested he was powered up

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When Kaio-sama hears of Beerus' arrival, he basically freaks out and tells Goku to hide and not mess with him at all if he can help it. Beerus eventually finds him and he when he asks about Freeza and all that, he starts poking Goku, messing with his arm and says that he couldn't have beaten Freeza the way he is now. Which I mean, when you're suppressed and casually talking in a tracksuit...probably not.

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Mind you, even the manga, which if anything is more faithful to the manga (though we know the Potara Time Limit Exists there so...) things are still highly questionable. For one, Beerus never gives the notion that Base Goku couldn't defeat Freeza. Instead he acts like "Super Saiyan 2 Goku" was the big reason Freeza was defeated. It's very strange, Goku imediately starts fighting him as a Super Saiyan, then fights as an SS2.

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At which point Beerus makes it sound like, yes this is how you beat Freeza, but that's the best you could've done...like we're missing something.

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It's more evidence that Base Saiyans < Frieza.. as strange as it can be. Beerus thinks that with SSJ2, Goku could actually beat Frieza. Nevertheless, We're debating the anime and it's still faithful to the Z manga.