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Cultural appropriation
Topic Started: Apr 30 2018, 02:30 PM (1,240 Views)
+ Emmeth
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Tinny
May 2 2018, 12:37 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 07:12 AM
Cultural appropration is one of the dumbest things to be offended by. Who cares how someone dresses? This is a very innocent act by an innocent girl, she wasn't trying to make a statement. Things like this can ruin someone's life.
There's a lot more to this than how someone dresses, as I've already stated. Acts don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
Why all the hubbub then? They are arguing about the history behind the dress, but if she got a hold of the dress in her own country, surely it's not that big a deal? If it was so important to China, they wouldn't let it be sold outside their country. In my opinion it's just people getting upset because they can.
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Emmeth
May 2 2018, 02:04 PM
Tinny
May 2 2018, 12:37 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 07:12 AM
Cultural appropration is one of the dumbest things to be offended by. Who cares how someone dresses? This is a very innocent act by an innocent girl, she wasn't trying to make a statement. Things like this can ruin someone's life.
There's a lot more to this than how someone dresses, as I've already stated. Acts don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
Why all the hubbub then? They are arguing about the history behind the dress, but if she got a hold of the dress in her own country, surely it's not that big a deal? If it was so important to China, they wouldn't let it be sold outside their country. In my opinion it's just people getting upset because they can.
...How exactly would China do that? Go to war with the United States and experience the century of humiliation all over again that led to this being a hot button issue in the first place? Enforce embargoes on all nations with Chinese dresses? Threaten diplomatic and economic sanctions against those nations who produce media that is racist against the Chinese? I'm genuinely curious as to what you think China, or for that matter any minority group within the rest (Romani, black people, etc.) is able to do to stop the white man from doing literally anything we want. Many First Nation tribes can't even stop the United States from building an oil pipe through their supposedly sovereign territory, how exactly do you suggest that they stop people from appropriating their culture? Short of terrorism, I don't see how.

And I will turn this back on you. Why are you so offended that people are offended about the misrepresentation of their culture? Do you think they do not have the right to speak out? It's free speech, you're free to put on Black Face, and others are free to call you racist for doing so, and you in turn have the right not listen, but you do not, and will never, have the right to silence criticism of your actions, and it feels extremely petty that people are getting offended at people getting offended at the appropriation of their culture.
Edited by Tinny, May 2 2018, 02:11 PM.
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+ Emmeth
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Tinny
May 2 2018, 02:10 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 02:04 PM
Tinny
May 2 2018, 12:37 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 07:12 AM
Cultural appropration is one of the dumbest things to be offended by. Who cares how someone dresses? This is a very innocent act by an innocent girl, she wasn't trying to make a statement. Things like this can ruin someone's life.
There's a lot more to this than how someone dresses, as I've already stated. Acts don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
Why all the hubbub then? They are arguing about the history behind the dress, but if she got a hold of the dress in her own country, surely it's not that big a deal? If it was so important to China, they wouldn't let it be sold outside their country. In my opinion it's just people getting upset because they can.
...How exactly would China do that? Go to war with the United States and experience the century of humiliation all over again that led to this being a hot button issue in the first place? Enforce embargoes on all nations with Chinese dresses? Threaten diplomatic and economic sanctions against those nations who produce media that is racist against the Chinese? I'm genuinely curious as to what you think China, or for that matter any minority group within the rest (Romani, black people, etc.) is able to do to stop the white man from doing literally anything we want. Many First Nation tribes can't even stop the United States from building an oil pipe through their supposedly sovereign territory, how exactly do you suggest that they stop people from appropriating their culture? Short of terrorism, I don't see how.

And I will turn this back on you. Why are you so offended that people are offended about the misrepresentation of their culture? Do you think they do not have the right to speak out? It's free speech, you're free to put on Black Face, and others are free to call you racist for doing so, and you in turn have the right not listen, but you do not, and will never, have the right to silence criticism of your actions, and it feels extremely petty that people are getting offended at people getting offended at the appropriation of their culture.
Fair enough on embargos etc, but there surely are respect enough between countries that a deal could be made. Anyway, not gonna push that.

I think 'misrepresentation' is a huge overreaction to a story like this. Are other cultures not allowed to show their love for chinese culture by wearing their attires? Is it really that touchy of a subject? We live in the now, not in the past. Let bygones be bygones.

As for my personal view on this, it may seem hypocritical but that's a necessary evil when I express my view; I think people nowadays get way too offended by anything and/or everything. That's one of the backsides of the internet, people have become way more sensitive.
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Emmeth
May 2 2018, 02:16 PM
Tinny
May 2 2018, 02:10 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 02:04 PM
Tinny
May 2 2018, 12:37 PM
Emmeth
May 2 2018, 07:12 AM
Cultural appropration is one of the dumbest things to be offended by. Who cares how someone dresses? This is a very innocent act by an innocent girl, she wasn't trying to make a statement. Things like this can ruin someone's life.
There's a lot more to this than how someone dresses, as I've already stated. Acts don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
Why all the hubbub then? They are arguing about the history behind the dress, but if she got a hold of the dress in her own country, surely it's not that big a deal? If it was so important to China, they wouldn't let it be sold outside their country. In my opinion it's just people getting upset because they can.
...How exactly would China do that? Go to war with the United States and experience the century of humiliation all over again that led to this being a hot button issue in the first place? Enforce embargoes on all nations with Chinese dresses? Threaten diplomatic and economic sanctions against those nations who produce media that is racist against the Chinese? I'm genuinely curious as to what you think China, or for that matter any minority group within the rest (Romani, black people, etc.) is able to do to stop the white man from doing literally anything we want. Many First Nation tribes can't even stop the United States from building an oil pipe through their supposedly sovereign territory, how exactly do you suggest that they stop people from appropriating their culture? Short of terrorism, I don't see how.

And I will turn this back on you. Why are you so offended that people are offended about the misrepresentation of their culture? Do you think they do not have the right to speak out? It's free speech, you're free to put on Black Face, and others are free to call you racist for doing so, and you in turn have the right not listen, but you do not, and will never, have the right to silence criticism of your actions, and it feels extremely petty that people are getting offended at people getting offended at the appropriation of their culture.
Fair enough on embargos etc, but there surely are respect enough between countries that a deal could be made. Anyway, not gonna push that.

I think 'misrepresentation' is a huge overreaction to a story like this. Are other cultures not allowed to show their love for chinese culture by wearing their attires? Is it really that touchy of a subject? We live in the now, not in the past. Let bygones be bygones.

As for my personal view on this, it may seem hypocritical but that's a necessary evil when I express my view; I think people nowadays get way too offended by anything and/or everything. That's one of the backsides of the internet, people have become way more sensitive.
There is not. There is diplomatic respect, but among the populace there is not, internal policies are done internally, by people who are answerable to their constituents, and most don't know or care enough about China. This becomes a lot more extreme when they lack truly independent governments like basically all the tribes living in Canada and the USA, what are they gonna do? What respect does any civilization have for their culture? Middle Eastern Culture? Islam? "Ching Chong" Chinese? f*** my own sibling has pulled out those damn accents and you expect me to believe that there is a large healthy respect for cultures unlike our own? What I have to ask is why you think there's this sort of respect between cultures going on. Hell we have ideas about the inevitable flash and faultline of conflict in the clash of civilizations with crap like this
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A respect between civilizations and cultures? No such thing exists, not in large numbers, hell in my case I doubt I could tell you in any real detail about China or India, but I can tell you what we did. We colonized the planet, we took their people, we squashed and demeaned their culture, they robbed their lands and brought it back into our own lands and built the Europe and USA that is so cushy for us today. Our current lives are built on the corpses of previous peoples, and in many ways are still being built on them, see America's various interventions in various countries during the cold war (and still later relating to the middle east in particular). Just look at the borders of Africa and all the civil instability and civil wars that occur because of the way we did it. It's not in the past, it effects them right now, and never ended. The consequences still effect them to this day.

The Legacy of Colonialism is baked into every facet of every culture on every continent in the planet, and we only got rid of proper empires (to say nothing of all the crap we got up to during the cold war) less than a century ago, exactly how quickly do you expect these things that occur across multiple generations to disappear when gone? The last country in Africa to gain it's independence did so about 50 years ago. And once again, look at those borders, does it look like colonization is in the past? Or does it look like the effects are still there to this day?
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I recommend you ask the people who experienced this, and not the people who benefited from colonialism, living in the most powerful country on the planet who engaged in exactly the kind of exploitation that makes this kind of thing offensive. It's not that people have become more sensitive, it's that they're no longer silenced. They've always thought this, and it's only now that awareness is spreading and people have a voice. What you think is people being sensitive, is people realizing the bulls*** inherent in White Man's Burden, and others speaking out about what they've experienced for generations.

It's like saying divorce rates rising is a bad thing, it's not, it's proof that more women can live without a s***ty husband and are choosing to do so, it's an unpleasantness that reveals the progression of society towards a more just and egalitarian one, and in that sense, I would never trade it for a peace of quiet maintained by oppression and discrimination. And maybe some people get the raw end of the stick, like that one kid that did black face in order to honor Martin Luther King Jr. and got kicked from the school (apparently his own mother didn't even realize it either), but it also means we now realize what is wrong with it in the first place.

And again, I have a lot of issues sympathizing with people who get angry, who complain, who have the gall to be offended by people speaking out against cultural appropriation. If you're gonna do something offensive, you should at least have the decency to realize and accept not everyone is gonna like it for perfectly valid reasons.
Edited by Tinny, May 2 2018, 03:04 PM.
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Rockman
May 2 2018, 12:42 PM
Except it's not always about clothing. It's typically about things that are worn that signifying honor in either a Religious or sacred tone. Wearing those things outside of their typical ceremonies at times that are inappropriate to why they were first used is considered rude and mocking.
I did say it was almost always about clothing, not that it is always.

Sometimes that's the case but in all these ones that explode on the media it isn't that often.
And again most of the time it's people getting angry on others behalf. Japanese people don't care if you want to hold a tea ceremony, it has some cultural significance to them but they don't own the idea.

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For instance, let's say a Kimono was only worn to honor the dead at the highest regard. You turn around and wear a Kimono to a furry convention and get yiffed from behind while wearing. You don't think that's going to upset someone?
None of that's true, but its easy to see how someone could take offense to your s***ty decision.


Yeah but that's not what happens here most of the time. People will get angry over a non Asian wearing a regular a** Kimono just because apparently they own them and are the only people that can wear them because of that.
Those Chinese dresses don't have major ceremonial significance, again if they were that important they wouldn't casually sell them elsewhere.

I mean, go try buy an authentic Native American headdress, you will only be able to buy stolen ones because you can't just buy them you earn them.
Conversely a cheap s***ty $5 knock off one for Halloween doesn't take away from the achievement of someone who actually earned one.

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I refer to my previous statements for the wedding dress analogy, and regarding the "policing other people" left me know when they're making laws to enforce certain practices along ethnic and racial lines (that actually pass or have a good chance at passing, not some hypothetical suggestion) and I'll agree, until them you're complaining about people complaining about their culture being represented falsely, and that just seems petty to me.


Petty like all the many thousands of people who will tell someone to kill themselves over s*** like this?
Have a read through comments on viral things like this if you think I'm being any sort of petty, people overreact in absurd fashion.

Why the hell is it okay to sic this angry mob on anyone you don't like? Throw a #racist or #culturalappropriation tag on a tweet and the person you're talking about straight up gets bullied by a bunch of pathetic a*****.



Not entirely sure if that's real or not but, is that cool?

Do we have to bow down to anyone we offend? Why do we owe these people anything?

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you only have the right to not listen to them.


You make that sound way easier than it is. All it takes is one person to call you out on something you had no malicious intent with and your social media presence is derailed completely. You could get bullied at school for being a racist and these people are so up themselves they'll hardly let you make your case.
I don't often throw out the SJW slur but these people can definitely be a problem.
Imagine living in fear of getting doxxed because you had some f***ing dreadlocks and weren't black or one time you wore a shirt that said something important to a culture without even knowing.


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Why am I the one who needs to switch perspective? We do we just always switch to the perspective to the ones that don't feel comfortable and feel offended all the time. Why can't they just see that this girl is not harming or disrespecting anyone? It seems like they want society segregated where only Chinese people can wear Chinese dresses. You can only wear a traditional garment if you're from that culture. That's pure racism. Do we really want to get to a point where people are being policed about what they choose to wear, even without any harmful intentions?

Perhaps they are the ones who need to change their perspective and realize that the freedom to wear whatever you want is more important than this particular girl not fully knowing the history of the dress.


A-God-damn-men.

Everyone who gets offended expects the whole world to bend over and apologise. How about you move on with your lives instead?
Back to this girl with the Chinese dress.
Who did she murder by wearing it? Who did she actually physically or emotionally hurt? Who was she attacking?

Literally people that chose to be angry and act like children about it, most of whom aren't even remotely Chinese.

If you want to go buy a kilt and burn it, good for you, it's a bit of cloth. It will still have personal meaning to me when I wear one at my wedding, in my own life.
Just don't, y'know, attack someone or burn down a forest with it.
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Steve
May 2 2018, 08:50 PM
A-God-damn-men.

Everyone who gets offended expects the whole world to bend over and apologise. How about you move on with your lives instead?
Or don't be a dick in the first place. If you expect people to roll over and take it up the butt everytime you make a mockery of them, I would suggest you find a different hobby before you get your a** busted.
Should just be thankful that the ones who are offended don't come at you like the Extremist Muslims do.

The world doesn't operate quite like you want it to. You're not allowed to go around making slights at people and their culture and expect no consequence. You also can't change how people are going to react towards your mockery. Some people don't care, others are going to kill you.
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Or don't be a dick in the first place.


This girl was being a dick by buying and wearing a dress from a presumably Chinese retailer that had no problems selling it to her?

Enlighten me on how she's the a***** here and not the thousands of people harassing her for wearing a God damn dress.


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you make a mockery of them


Then maybe they shouldn't take it this personally because it's almost never an actual personal attack against them?
"I think this looks cool, I'm going to wear it" is almost always the thought process here.
Not "Hey, I really want thousands of people to tell me to kill myself, I hope I get tons of hate mail and s*** posted through my letterbox, that's fun and I want everyone to hate me deeply"

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You're not allowed to go around making slights at people and their culture and expect no consequence.


Again this pretty much never happens.

If you want to show me a video of this girl saying "Haha Chinese people suck I look way better in this dress" then you'd have a point there.
I think I've only ever seen an actual malicious thing to this nature involving blackface and someone dressing like a basketball player, holding a watermelon and bucket of KFC, which is quite obviously to be a dick.

People literally get mad at children for wearing the whole Cowboy and Indian's attire like the children are personally insulting them.
You could argue that whole thing is insensitive sure but the reaction to it is pathetic.
Edited by Steve, May 2 2018, 09:24 PM.
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Yeah but that's not what happens here most of the time. People will get angry over a non Asian wearing a regular a** Kimono just because apparently they own them and are the only people that can wear them because of that.
Those Chinese dresses don't have major ceremonial significance, again if they were that important they wouldn't casually sell them elsewhere.
I've already told Emmeth about this, they don't have the power to stop it in the first place, I'm not sure why so many people are convinced of this, for god's sake in a world with brexit and Trump I don't think the "Social Justice Warriors" have nearly as much sway as you think they do.

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I mean, go try buy an authentic Native American headdress, you will only be able to buy stolen ones because you can't just buy them you earn them.
Conversely a cheap s***ty $5 knock off one for Halloween doesn't take away from the achievement of someone who actually earned one.
Or you could, you know, not buy them in the first place. Maybe I'm just weird but I think when you do something offensive, you should be prepared to face criticism, and if you can't well... Don't do it. It's not even like she's been through all that much from what the news piece told me, they were all pretty tame all things considered, so I don't know where you get that from (unless I missed something).
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Again this pretty much never happens.
My experience with my family would disagree. Also you'd be amazed at how many people actually think this way, like on reddit. Or the President of the US.

Also since you talked about the whole "kill yourself" etc thing, I have to ask. Do you think this came about because we realized colonization is a bad thing? Surely you do not think that is simply because of progressive politics. No, if you want to talk about that, we should make an entirely new thread about the dehumanization of people via the internet, the tendancy of the internet of allowing people to get into echo chambers where they are never exposed to differing opinions or where they can believe themselves a majority, leading to s*** like an incel (involuntary celibate, it's as pathetic as it sounds and gets far worse due to that echo chamber effect, I've even seen freaking antisemitism from them) community or the surge in extremist politics (like the alt-right, or Islamists being able to recruit from so far away). That's a problem dealing with the fact we don't know these people and often forget that these are in fact people and not text on a screen or pictures in a frame. If you want to talk about that, then you want to talk about the nature of the internet and how it's failed to unite as a people but instead divides us to an even greater extent and in many ways hurts our ability to emphasize with people.

None of which have innately anything to do with racism in specific, only in that it gives them a spot to find others who are like-minded.

You are pinning a greater and wider effecting phenomena on something almost completely unrelated to the event at hand. Frankly it's so far off that if it weren't so common a reaction I'd call it hijacking a thread, but I suppose it's difficult to pin point how this happens in the first place. Hell most the gaming community only really knows to rave and rant at individuals, rather than greater system that control the market place and allow stuff like SOPA and PIPA and the others have have come and are coming since to be a thing that's attempted today. TERFs and Nazis alike telling you to kill yourself are not because of politics, they're because the internet has allowed them to seal themselves in an echo chamber.

Addendum: TERFS are Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists, they're almost certainly the "SJWs" you're referring to from what I can tell, though frankly to me they just seem like they want their gender sex, because trans exclusionary, to be in charge but maintain the current hierarchal system otherwise.
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Rockman
May 2 2018, 09:13 PM
Steve
May 2 2018, 08:50 PM
A-God-damn-men.

Everyone who gets offended expects the whole world to bend over and apologise. How about you move on with your lives instead?
Or don't be a dick in the first place. If you expect people to roll over and take it up the butt everytime you make a mockery of them, I would suggest you find a different hobby before you get your a** busted.
Should just be thankful that the ones who are offended don't come at you like the Extremist Muslims do.

The world doesn't operate quite like you want it to. You're not allowed to go around making slights at people and their culture and expect no consequence. You also can't change how people are going to react towards your mockery. Some people don't care, others are going to kill you.
Except nobody is being a d*ck here. Nobody is making a mockery of the history.
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May 3 2018, 10:29 AM
Rockman
May 2 2018, 09:13 PM
Steve
May 2 2018, 08:50 PM
A-God-damn-men.

Everyone who gets offended expects the whole world to bend over and apologise. How about you move on with your lives instead?
Or don't be a dick in the first place. If you expect people to roll over and take it up the butt everytime you make a mockery of them, I would suggest you find a different hobby before you get your a** busted.
Should just be thankful that the ones who are offended don't come at you like the Extremist Muslims do.

The world doesn't operate quite like you want it to. You're not allowed to go around making slights at people and their culture and expect no consequence. You also can't change how people are going to react towards your mockery. Some people don't care, others are going to kill you.
Except nobody is being a d*ck here. Nobody is making a mockery of the history.
I'm not talking about anyone here. At all. Sorry that it can be seen that way. Writing it in a direct way made it look better and more aggressive. :lol:
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

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I've already told Emmeth about this, they don't have the power to stop it in the first place, I'm not sure why so many people are convinced of this, for god's sake in a world with brexit and Trump I don't think the "Social Justice Warriors" have nearly as much sway as you think they do.


What exactly stops people making Chinese dresses from being able to exclusively sell them in China?

Do you think the people that sew them together sit crying constantly making them knowing that filthy white people might wear them...or that they just get on with making it because...it's just a dress and it's significance is limited to where they live and on their own personal level?

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Or you could, you know, not buy them in the first place. Maybe I'm just weird but I think when you do something offensive, you should be prepared to face criticism, and if you can't well... Don't do it.


Don't do anything I don't like, ever. Why? Because I don't like it and you should live exactly how I want you to because MY way is the right way.

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My experience with my family would disagree. Also you'd be amazed at how many people actually think this way, like on reddit. Or the President of the US.


People thinking that way =/= that actually happens.
If anything I think it probably happens more these days because people specifically want to get attention from the angry reaction they know they'll get, so in a dumb way going crazy over alleged appropriation just gives it more attention and makes the edgelords out there do it for fun.
The person that made the tweet about that girl with the Chinese dress had previously posted racially insensitive tweets featuring the N word(not the hard r version) and they're generally a less than perfect person.

They weren't being virtuous, they wanted the attention, some hundred thousand likes later they sure didn't like it when people called them out on their own life.



As for the whole "kill yourself bit" all I have to say to that is...
If these people act like that, then why should we listen to them?
If the criticism I'm to receive is hate mail, death threats(even if they'd never actually be carried out by the 17 year old that sent them) and other vile crap...I'm not going to apologise, unless I've done something, actually done something, worth apologising for.


People think that because they are upset that they are right and everyone should feel sorry for being wrong and attacking them personally, even if that just didn't happen.

I haven't seen many cases where someone actually had a constructive debate about this, not many people are willing to talk about it, only to shout.
You can't really blame people for not backing down on either side really.
Obviously that's an internet problem there, like how you can't say Black Lives Ma-WHITE LIVES MATTER TOO THOUGH and then boom, rational discussion is pretty much done two and a half words in.
Edited by Steve, May 3 2018, 06:44 PM.
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Steve
May 3 2018, 06:41 PM
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I've already told Emmeth about this, they don't have the power to stop it in the first place, I'm not sure why so many people are convinced of this, for god's sake in a world with brexit and Trump I don't think the "Social Justice Warriors" have nearly as much sway as you think they do.


What exactly stops people making Chinese dresses from being able to exclusively sell them in China?

Do you think the people that sew them together sit crying constantly making them knowing that filthy white people might wear them...or that they just get on with making it because...it's just a dress and it's significance is limited to where they live and on their own personal level?

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Or you could, you know, not buy them in the first place. Maybe I'm just weird but I think when you do something offensive, you should be prepared to face criticism, and if you can't well... Don't do it.


Don't do anything I don't like, ever. Why? Because I don't like it and you should live exactly how I want you to because MY way is the right way.

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My experience with my family would disagree. Also you'd be amazed at how many people actually think this way, like on reddit. Or the President of the US.


People thinking that way =/= that actually happens.
If anything I think it probably happens more these days because people specifically want to get attention from the angry reaction they know they'll get, so in a dumb way going crazy over alleged appropriation just gives it more attention and makes the edgelords out there do it for fun.
The person that made the tweet about that girl with the Chinese dress had previously posted racially insensitive tweets featuring the N word(not the hard r version) and they're generally a less than perfect person.

They weren't being virtuous, they wanted the attention, some hundred thousand likes later they sure didn't like it when people called them out on their own life.



As for the whole "kill yourself bit" all I have to say to that is...
If these people act like that, then why should we listen to them?
If the criticism I'm to receive is hate mail, death threats(even if they'd never actually be carried out by the 17 year old that sent them) and other vile crap...I'm not going to apologise, unless I've done something, actually done something, worth apologising for.


People think that because they are upset that they are right and everyone should feel sorry for being wrong and attacking them personally, even if that just didn't happen.

I haven't seen many cases where someone actually had a constructive debate about this, not many people are willing to talk about it, only to shout.
You can't really blame people for not backing down on either side really.
Obviously that's an internet problem there, like how you can't say Black Lives Ma-WHITE LIVES MATTER TOO THOUGH and then boom, rational discussion is pretty much done two and a half words in.
Steve, with all due respect, I think you missed the point of what I was saying. If your problem is with screaming and hollering, it's not with their political ideas, but the internet which sequesters them off, allows them to gather with similarly foul minded individuals who refuse to speak with reason and measurement ("My culture is not your prom dress" vs "Kill yourself" and such). It can also be with twitter which in many ways discourages intellectual and reasoned discourse with such a tight character limit.

There are plenty of reasonable people of the Chinese culture this appropriates, perhaps even someone from Shanghai to talk about this with, and I am admittedly not those people. I can barely consider myself to have any real ties to my past and can barely speak my home language. If you want to learn about that, it's probably best you learn from the horse's mouth than the news pieces and find someone who was speaking out on that and see if they have a real take that explains why they find it such, I've already explained the generalities of this and ultimately that's all I can do from this spot.

And thoughts get put into words, that's why propaganda is important, that's why it's important to learn, that's why education is important and why it's such an important thing to control (either for your own ends as you teach impressionable children a specific narrative, such as how the slaves didn't have it all bad in the south and how it's about state's rights and what systemic oppression of the black man in the deep south?). Thoughts absolutely matter, if they didn't we wouldn't put so much damn effort into changing people's minds through speeches, books, talking, literature, advertisements, shows of [insert virtue here], arguments, parables, analogies, music, and more. Thoughts absolutely become actions, thoughts are what people act on ultimately.

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Don't do anything I don't like, ever. Why? Because I don't like it and you should live exactly how I want you to because MY way is the right way.

Well here's an example. If you put on blackface, you should know what that means and be prepared for people to call you racist. If you complain about that, I'm gonna have a hard time sympathizing.
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What exactly stops people making Chinese dresses from being able to exclusively sell them in China?

Do you think the people that sew them together sit crying constantly making them knowing that filthy white people might wear them...or that they just get on with making it because...it's just a dress and it's significance is limited to where they live and on their own personal level?

...Do you think they have a monopoly on them or something? What exactly prevents people from making their own? Copyright? Do you think these factory workers have a choice in the matter of where it's sold? It's their job. They do it or they starve as they get fired. Also thinking about that
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That whole teary eyes thing isn't nearly as far off as you think it is. Being a worker in China is horrible if the fact that there's a net to catch people jumping to their death is any indication.

The business owners who probably floated the idea of a f***ing net instead of some real tangible improvement to the worker's lives frankly are not the entirety of the Chinese Populace, on the basis of them being s***ty people who deserve to live a lifetime working in those conditions. We get farther into this I might start getting on my ideological horse about how awful capitalism is to the worker and how China needs a revolution to help the workers. Seriously, if they're following Marx I think now's a damn good time for them to transition over to actual communism. And I'm already almost doing it. Basically, Chinese factories suck and the workers there have about as much say in where the dresses sell as your average soviet citizen had in who lead the USSR. Whether or not they want to (and I'm pretty sure they just want food in their bellies for now, ideological consideration, hell, basic fulfillment of life only really comes in after you're done not starving).
Edited by Tinny, May 3 2018, 08:47 PM.
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There are plenty of reasonable people of the Chinese culture this appropriates, perhaps even someone from Shanghai to talk about this with, and I am admittedly not those people. I can barely consider myself to have any real ties to my past and can barely speak my home language. If you want to learn about that, it's probably best you learn from the horse's mouth than the news pieces and find someone who was speaking out on that and see if they have a real take that explains why they find it such, I've already explained the generalities of this and ultimately that's all I can do from this spot.


Herein lies a huge problem with the whole thing.

People basically just assume everyone from whatever culture cares or feels hurt by this, even though all the hubbub comes directly from the massive groups of angry internet folk. Not people who genuinely feel hurt who are actually a part of the culture.
So why is it even a discussion unless there is actual damaging appropriation, like the aforementioned history meddling.

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Well here's an example. If you put on blackface, you should know what that means and be prepared for people to call you racist. If you complain about that, I'm gonna have a hard time sympathizing.


I don't agree with it being racist outright but yeah, I'm aware people would go crazy regardless of my intentions.
I doubt this girl thought anything about buying a Chinese dress, considering it's actually pretty common to see them in the west anyway.

I doubt she got up one morning and thought "You know, I hate Chinese people...and I have an idea"
These things always get painted with that sort of malicious intent outright, like everyone who's upset knows exactly what the person was thinking and they they could only possibly have set out to offend.

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...Do you think they have a monopoly on them or something? What exactly prevents people from making their own? Copyright? Do you think these factory workers have a choice in the matter of where it's sold? It's their job.


Yeah but China as a whole. Do you think that if they cared so much about these dresses, that they would just casually sell them?

If you look at something genuinely significant from a culture you probably won't be able to buy it, imitations maybe but not the real thing. Native American's won't be selling headdresses to any random people on the internet, because they're important to them.
I can't think of any other specific examples but stuff like any ornaments involved in sacred/traditional rituals don't tend to casually get sold off, not real ones.
And it's the real thing that matters and is all that should.

It's claimed that people shouldn't appropriate but like Ginyu said, why is it only that perspective that matters?

Think of a baptism.
Literally anyone can drop water on a babies head and quote scripture, there's nothing unique or fanciful involved in that process.
But it only counts if someone who is ordained does it in the proper official way. Without that authenticity it's a near worthless gesture at best.

Why should it matter to you what entirely irrelevant people do when they're not even doing it right anyway? If they're not part of your culture you probably wouldn't want them doing it the right way and they don't, their prayer beads are probably plastic and they don't even quote the right verses. Their attire is made from the wrong materials and their dance is all wrong. Etc etc
Why, really, why should you care?


Someone can pretend they're Japanese all they want, they can buy all the Japanese merchandise they want, they can learn and poorly enunciate the language, they can pretend they're doing a tea ceremony properly and they can wear a knock off kimono or even fork out for an authentic one.
They can claim or think that they're "Practically Japanese now" despite how stupid that is.

But only when they actually claim that they are Japanese and that such culture is their own should there really be a genuine problem, you can't rewrite history and put that ethnicity on your birth certificate, forever adding Japanese to your lineage despite that being a complete lie.

Is that not a perspective that suits everyone?
People of a particular culture only need to get mad when someone is claiming they own it or are actually a part of it.
And everyone else doesn't have to walk on eggshells or research literally every culture on the off chance that they buy an item that offends someone.
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Cultural Appropriation is only potentially dangerous if people deny the source of whatever they are using. Whitewashing a people's culture or history has often been the first step towards promoting disdain for those people. People appreciating aspects of another culture is healthy for relationships between different cultural communities and should be encouraged.
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Herein lies a huge problem with the whole thing.

People basically just assume everyone from whatever culture cares or feels hurt by this, even though all the hubbub comes directly from the massive groups of angry internet folk. Not people who genuinely feel hurt who are actually a part of the culture.
So why is it even a discussion unless there is actual damaging appropriation, like the aforementioned history meddling.


I mean, there was apparently a tweet saying "My culture is not your dress" so it's safe to assume that yes, some Chinese people do indeed take offense.

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Yeah but China as a whole. Do you think that if they cared so much about these dresses, that they would just casually sell them?

If you look at something genuinely significant from a culture you probably won't be able to buy it, imitations maybe but not the real thing. Native American's won't be selling headdresses to any random people on the internet, because they're important to them.
I can't think of any other specific examples but stuff like any ornaments involved in sacred/traditional rituals don't tend to casually get sold off, not real ones.
And it's the real thing that matters and is all that should.

It's claimed that people shouldn't appropriate but like Ginyu said, why is it only that perspective that matters?

Think of a baptism.
Literally anyone can drop water on a babies head and quote scripture, there's nothing unique or fanciful involved in that process.
But it only counts if someone who is ordained does it in the proper official way. Without that authenticity it's a near worthless gesture at best.

Why should it matter to you what entirely irrelevant people do when they're not even doing it right anyway? If they're not part of your culture you probably wouldn't want them doing it the right way and they don't, their prayer beads are probably plastic and they don't even quote the right verses. Their attire is made from the wrong materials and their dance is all wrong. Etc etc
Why, really, why should you care?


Someone can pretend they're Japanese all they want, they can buy all the Japanese merchandise they want, they can learn and poorly enunciate the language, they can pretend they're doing a tea ceremony properly and they can wear a knock off kimono or even fork out for an authentic one.
They can claim or think that they're "Practically Japanese now" despite how stupid that is.

But only when they actually claim that they are Japanese and that such culture is their own should there really be a genuine problem, you can't rewrite history and put that ethnicity on your birth certificate, forever adding Japanese to your lineage despite that being a complete lie.

Is that not a perspective that suits everyone?
People of a particular culture only need to get mad when someone is claiming they own it or are actually a part of it.
And everyone else doesn't have to walk on eggshells or research literally every culture on the off chance that they buy an item that offends someone.

China is not some workers owned paradise where the people get to decide what happens, it has businesses that are so horrible they put forth suicide nets to prevent the people making these from falling, The ones making the decisions of where to sell these are by definition a small minority in charge of the enterprise. At no point is the average Chinese asked about this, they work, they get paid, and they buy food or whatever they need to make it to the next day. Also, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that it's not just the sioux that are selling their style of clothing, white people can just as easily make it and sell it while holding racist views, and so is the same with the qipao. So I'm still not sure why you keep talking about what the Chinese factory workers think.

And their perspective doesn't matter, only the white straight man from Europe/USA matters, that's the issue. That's why people push the minority (Chinese in this case) perspective. And again, this isn't the complaints I saw in the news artical, it was "my culture is not your prom dress" it is simple and to the point if the specifics of this particular case are all we want to focus on. There's no real disrespect from either side, simply a matter of fact stating of views that, far as I could read regarding that. It's not even like the woman is all that hurt, she is making perfectly composed replies as well so again, I'm not sure where this is coming from, unless we're talking bout the greater context, in which case well, I've already talked about the exploitation and lack of power for many peoples that makes this an issue and not Indians bastardizing America in Bollywood.
Edited by Tinny, May 4 2018, 03:06 PM.
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