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| Piccolo's strength in the Android arc | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 27 2018, 07:31 PM (611 Views) | |
| + Six Trails | Apr 27 2018, 07:31 PM Post #1 |
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Not saying I necessarily subscribe to this idea, but is it possible for Piccolo in the Android arc to be weaker than Freeza, SS Goku, and SS Trunks from the Mecha Freeza saga? The main arguments for Piccolo being so strong are a.) Piccolo not doubting his own abilities against the Artificial Humans and b.) thinking he may have grown too strong against the Artificial Humans who were supposedly stronger than Trunks. However, neither of those are necessarily true. a. Piccolo never references his own abilities in particular. He only says that he doesn't lack confidence in the groups' ability to win. Chapter: 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1 Piccolo: "How about it, Son Goku...Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy..." Goku: "There's no way I could know that without even seeing them. I'll answer once I give it a try." Piccolo: "You're pretty carefree...It's not like I lack confidence...However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind..." Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between this timeline and Trunks' timeline: Goku is actually around this time. This is even exemplified by Krillin later: ![]() b. Again, Piccolo references the group as a whole. Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3 Piccolo: "It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids...But it looks like the future has changed somehow...Was it that you weren't as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?..." Piccolo questioning their validity also doesn't necessarily require them to be so strong. They absorb energy, so it's possible for them to reach the level of "too strong for Trunks" in the future by absorbing more energy. If the Z Fighters never trained as rigorously in the future, then it's possible that the Z Fighters were killed by Androids weaker than the ones that Trunks faces. So it's possible for them to grow too strong without surpassing Trunks from 3 years prior. There are some other statements that could imply Piccolo is weaker than Freeza as well: Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: "Th-this is the man who took down Freeza...And he was helpless before these androids...I'll be frank...! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn't be that different from Trunks or Vegeta..." If Piccolo could easily do the same, then it'd make no sense for Tenshinhan to use that feat as a testament of Trunks (and the Androids') strength. Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1 God: "Things turned out this way against the androids...Even for that 'Trunks' boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father...and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks..." If Piccolo just beat Gero who's even stronger than Freeza, then this statement of him referencing Trunks from 3 years earlier would be redundant if Trunks was weaker than both of them. There's also the fact that Piccolo is still weaker than Trunks 3 years later. Most people say Trunks simply got stronger, but they base it off making Piccolo so strong. Other than that, there isn't much to support it. So what do you all think? Edited by Six Trails, Apr 28 2018, 02:35 PM.
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| + Emmeth | Apr 27 2018, 07:51 PM Post #2 |
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I ♥ Yoeri
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They all trained for someone stronger than Freeza, Piccolo wouldn't have been careless enough to not get to that level. Especially considering his confidence, he has very likely surpassed that treshold. At the very least, he's around that power. |
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| + Six Trails | Apr 27 2018, 07:55 PM Post #3 |
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I mean, it wouldn't necessarily be "careless" but simply out of his threshold to reach that level of power with just three years of Earth training. And again, his confidence doesn't necessarily stem from his own power. They have Goku with them this time. I'm not suggesting he be super weak, either. I think he could be reasonably close to Freeza, but not necessarily stronger. Freeza's power still seems to hold some relevance until Cell shows up. Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6 Kuririn: "Goku, tell us-This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?" Goku: "...Both..." Edited by Six Trails, Apr 27 2018, 07:58 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanMastaDon | Apr 27 2018, 09:39 PM Post #4 |
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Piccolo should be above Super Saiyan Sick Goku who should be above Yardrat Goku. When Sick Goku powers up, Tien thinks his power is amazing. There's no way that would be possible if he were any weaker than the power witnessed 3 years ago. The humans are all over Goku's power. Sick Goku is significantly stronger than Yardrat Goku. Piccolo is able to handle an Android around the level of Sick Goku with ease. |
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| Thiln | Apr 28 2018, 04:56 AM Post #5 |
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I personally think Piccolo is at 210 million myself. It's a completely arbitrary estimate but one that doesn't seem to contradict anything. He would be stronger than SSJ Goku after Yardrat but at the bottom in comparison to the Super Saiyans during this time (still in the same league as them, though). Too bad no one else except Goku is allowed the opportunity to learn certain invaluable skills needed to rationalise their power growth - things have to be extrapolated in order to justify the progression. |
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| Billa | Apr 28 2018, 07:20 AM Post #6 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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Piccolo at max should be equal or at very least only marginally inferior to SSJ Veggie who was > SSJ Trunks & Goku To think dude has tonnes of deadly arsenal at his disposal waiting to be unleashed like Hell Zone Grenade, Makousen, etc I really wish Android Arc Piccolo had at any point fought Final Form or Mecha Frieza. Like for once, a Namekian has avenged their race |
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| superperfectnerd | Apr 28 2018, 02:52 PM Post #7 |
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I don't think Trunks really got stronger, if Trunks can just get stronger in his own timeline on his own, what's the point of him needing the others in the past? Androids 19 and 20 max absorption = 120,000,000 Piccolo = 150,000,000 Ssj Trunks = 180,000,000 Ssj Goku (max) = 250,000,000 Ssj Vegeta = 275,000,000 The androids are dangerous not only because they can absorb energy to enhance their own power but because in doing so they also weaken their opponent. Goku can be sensed to have high energy and still not be able to fight properly because his heart hurts, he was burning more energy than he was actually able to hit with. Vegeta was a new ssj and burned through quite a lot of power anyway but he was able to easily dominate 19 but had to do it close quarters to remove his arms and managed to get himself drained a bit, hence needing a senzu. He could still have possibly fought 20 but would rather not risk losing more power. Edited by superperfectnerd, Apr 28 2018, 02:56 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanMastaDon | Apr 28 2018, 03:06 PM Post #8 |
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Trunks has to get stronger. He is keeping up with Androids Saga Super Saiyans, it's inevitable that he trained and grew vastly superior. He can even hold his own reasonably well against the Androids now, but he can't beat them. Whereas 3 years prior, they were unstoppable monsters. |
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| Dankness Lava | Apr 28 2018, 06:10 PM Post #9 |
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Dankness Forever
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Why would Trunks not get stronger? What reason would be have not to train? |
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| SuperSaiyanMastaDon | Apr 28 2018, 06:56 PM Post #10 |
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He looks the same, that's about it. Which is hardly a reason at all. The community has a large issue with taking the implications of increased powers post Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku. They have a habit of trying to nerf all of the suggestions because of how epic Freeza vs Goku was. It's completely understandable, but it's just not factual. Freeza and Goku's power on Namek is quickly dwarfed once Freeza returns to Earth. Freeza is now a jobber to the Androids. A sad end to the mighty emperor. But this is Dragonball Z and this is how things work. 1) Freeza states he has powered up and can probably defeat Goku now. 2) Trunks tells Freeza to power up and that he'd take him out in an instant. 3) Nothing suggests Freeza vs Trunks would have gone any differently if Freeza had powered up, Trunks is incredibly more powerful than Freeza, who as I said before, is superior to Goku from Namek. 4) Yardrat Goku is even more incredible than that. He is able to handle Trunks easily, although was holding back, is still clearly moderately inferior to Yardrat Goku. 5) When Sick Goku is fighting 19, the humans are astounded with his power. This level of Goku is clearly above Yardrat Goku but probably only moderately so. The Post Absorption Androids should be around this level and they have no chance against Vegeta, who is only a little stronger than Goku's healthy power. Numerically, this is how I have shown it, it seems like tremendous spacing, but it's all right there. Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,500,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 1,450,000,000 Sick Goku/19 Post 1,000,000,000 Yardrat Goku 750,000,000 Trunks 600,000,000 Mecha Freeza 400,000,000 Goku Namek 375,000,000 Freeza 350,000,000 People think this kind of spacing is absurd, but imo, this is exactly what the story shows us. |
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| + Six Trails | Apr 28 2018, 09:26 PM Post #11 |
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@SuperSaiyanMastaDon It’s nothing at all to do with “not accepting big power increases” (which is hypocritical coming from you based on your Gotenks and EoZ views), did you even read the post? Based on your first statement I’d assume no. Trunks’ power against Freeza is referenced twice in the Android arc and still held in a high regard. Why would that be if that power was fodder now? It only takes the time machine 8 months to recharge, so there’s no reason to believe he stayed in the future any longer than that. With a lot less training time and resources, then it’d stand to reason that Trunks didn’t increase in power all that much.The only justification you have for him increasing so much is “this is DBZ everyone is haxxed itz the plot”. I don’t disagree that plot determines power, but in this case there isn’t enough evidence to suggest Trunks is all that different from 3 years prior. If anything the opposite is implied by Kami and Tenshinhan. |
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| SuperSaiyanMastaDon | Apr 28 2018, 10:53 PM Post #12 |
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Freeza's power being referenced is part of the story. Hey, let's talk about the last major super villain now that we have a new super villain. That's all it is. The same thing happened with Tao Pai Pai's power at the 22nd Budokai and also Master Roshi's power at Baba's Tournament. Not everything is about battle power. Freeza didn't somehow become relevant to Androids who are keeping up with powers that smoke powers that easily destroyed him. Trunks third trip took 3 years to gather enough energy. His first trip took 8 months. I'd guess his second trip was somewhere in between that. The amount of time Trunks spent in the past is irrelevant anyway, plot determines power of course. But one could argue Trunks couldn't travel into a past that had not occurred. He might have had to wait a full 3 years to go anyway, due to the events occurring. But that's getting too deep into time travel logic for me. You keep worrying about logic and not enough about plot and power chains. Those are the things that matter. Trunks has powered up greatly because Vegeta and Goku have powered up greatly and Trunks is suggested to be around their level. It's really as simple as that. And I accept all character statements, Gotenks is a special case, it's clear the Base power bravado is meant to be a gag. And it comes down to whether you think a 50x boost has been gone against or you take the character statements to supersede them. Let's not act like this is a common issue here, so spare me the "up in arms" attitude. EoZ views are consistent with the manga. It's called the Super Saiyan wall for a reason. It's not easily blown to bits. Nothing suggests their Super Saiyan power can surpass this wall, yet you think their Base power should be able to blow past it? Nah, there's nothing that suggests that. The no Super Saiyan rule shouldn't be in effect. The reason they didn't go Super Saiyan is they didn't want everyone knowing they were the ones who fought against Cell. They didn't want the attention. Perhaps they made a wish to make everyone forget about them becoming Super Saiyans at the tournament, but I don't know, I'd have to see it. They make a wish for everyone to forget about Majin Buu, but I don't think "No Super Saiyan Rule" is necessarily in effect. It could be, but I don't know. You guys will have me believe that Vegeta can't acquire Super Saiyan 3, but he can acquire Super Saiyan 3 level power in base. Somehow, this sits right with you... |
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| superperfectnerd | Apr 29 2018, 02:27 AM Post #13 |
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If Trunks can get vastly stronger without the resources and experience of the people from the past, then what's the point? Why not just train in his own time and kill the androids? I he can get the same boost as the warriors from the past training together, then why does he need them?
Edited by superperfectnerd, Apr 29 2018, 02:28 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Apr 29 2018, 02:56 AM Post #14 |
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It's not like Trunks got multiple times stronger. |
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| SuperSaiyanMastaDon | Apr 29 2018, 03:20 AM Post #15 |
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Trunks can get significantly stronger. He went from a level well below Gohan's, and surpassing it 3 years later on his own. Another 3 years of training for him brings him up to a level where he can now fight the Androids decently. This is what the story shows us. |
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