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Do you consider Dragon Ball a plot-driven or character-driven story?
Topic Started: Apr 21 2018, 07:39 PM (590 Views)
DBZAOTA482
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For those who don't know, a plot-driven story is where the main draw is the situation where characters are placed in and how they react to it while a character-driven story is well... more about the characters themselves and how their decisions influence the outcome of the story.

It's been debated what kinda story Dragon Ball is... I'm not completely sure it fits but I'm leaning more towards plot-driven. The manga always centered around adventure and action while rarely getting any downtime to focus on the characters' personal lives. We get tidbits throughout the manga but that's pretty much it.

The anime admittedly does slow things down to get character-driven slice-of-life episodes or extra focus on their training though those tend to be fluff.

What do you think the kind of story Dragon Ball is?
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Both maybe? They're definitely places in hard situations but I think the outcome sometimes also has to do with the characters' actions
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Dankness Lava
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There are plots in it, but it is mainly character driven, especially before Z.
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I Yoeri

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Apr 21 2018, 09:05 PM
There are plots in it, but it is mainly character driven, especially before Z.
This I can agree with. The plot is "Goku's adventures" which isn't much. At least Z added a proper background for Goku and a very interesting plot villain in Freeza.
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Billa
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Character-driven in DB

Plot-driven in Z
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PopcornShower
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Plot driven. There really isn't that much in the way of actual good character development in Dragon Ball (in any incarnation)
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
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I used to consider it plot and action driven. I looked forward to seeing where the plot would go and what the action would be like. The only characters I was interested in the development of were Gohan and to a lesser extent, Vegeta.

I'm currently watching Kai for the first time and am more focused on the characters, since I already know how the plot goes. The series has never had deeply written characters, but they do have some nuance and consistency (not so much in Super). edit: another reason I'm more focused on characterisation in Kai is that the script is different than in the original Z, so I'm interested to see how much of a difference that makes to my perception of the characters.
Edited by TrunksinSwimmingTrunks, Apr 29 2018, 12:48 PM.
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
Apr 29 2018, 12:47 PM
). edit: another reason I'm more focused on characterisation in Kai is that the script is different than in the original Z, so I'm interested to see how much of a difference that makes to my perception of the characters.
Er do you mean dub wise? As far as I am aware the Japanese script for Z and Kai are pretty much the same. Kai in Japanese is literally just a recut with as much filler in removed as possible. Kai in the English dub was that and a chance to do Dragon Ball Z correctly.
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Tinny
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It's almost entirely plot driven, with the cahracters as vehicles meant to get us from situation to situation (that is to say, fight to fight). While the show doesn't spend no time on the characters, that doesn't place it that far above other plot driven shows. Dragon Ball is ultimately about seeing these various fights happen, and for enough proof to this, we got the main character, Goku.

Goku doesn't change, and arguably has had the least character development out of all the main characters, sans maybe Chaouzu. His personality has occasionally shifted, but that was more to meet the plot, and rarely has the story spent any time on justifying those shifts in character, as they almost all take place off screen. In story he receives little to no change in character and stays more or less the same through DB, DBZ, GT, and DBS, any real changes being more akin to exaggerating aspects of Goku, rather than Goku growing in a certain direction.

Vegeta is about the only real counter point to this, and to it's credit he does change, but the story is rarely driven by him, and is often more driven by the antagonists and the various fights, the only time I'd argue it got genuinely character focused is maybe when Vegeta gave into Babidi's mind control and later sacrificed himself to defeat Buu, but even then arguably that was more to show how powerful Buu is, than any specific growth on Vegeta's part as the intention. Characters tend to be a side meal to the plot's main course, rather than the other way around.
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
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PopcornShower
Apr 30 2018, 01:46 AM
TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
Apr 29 2018, 12:47 PM
). edit: another reason I'm more focused on characterisation in Kai is that the script is different than in the original Z, so I'm interested to see how much of a difference that makes to my perception of the characters.
Er do you mean dub wise? As far as I am aware the Japanese script for Z and Kai are pretty much the same. Kai in Japanese is literally just a recut with as much filler in removed as possible. Kai in the English dub was that and a chance to do Dragon Ball Z correctly.
I did watch Z up until Majin Buu healing the blind kid in the Funimation dub and after that in Japanese, so I'm comparing Kai to both. The Japanese Z must have extra lines in, since it has more filler. Maybe it really is mostly the same though - I watched Z about 8 years ago, so don't really remember it that much. I'm definitely still on the lookout for anything character-related that I didn't notice last time (especially on Namek and the Cell Saga), although I guess that maybe it will just be things I overlooked before rather than actual differences.
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
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Tinny
Apr 30 2018, 01:58 AM


Goku doesn't change, and arguably has had the least character development out of all the main characters
Character development isn't the same as a character changing. Goku is one of the most developed characters of the series, even though he barely changes from the age of 12 until the end of Z. He's developed, in the sense that the audience is able to anticipate how he would think and act in different situations, because his thought process and beliefs have been explored sufficiently for viewers to understand how his mind works.
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Tinny
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
Apr 30 2018, 11:19 PM
Tinny
Apr 30 2018, 01:58 AM


Goku doesn't change, and arguably has had the least character development out of all the main characters
Character development isn't the same as a character changing. Goku is one of the most developed characters of the series, even though he barely changes from the age of 12 until the end of Z. He's developed, in the sense that the audience is able to anticipate how he would think and act in different situations, because his thought process and beliefs have been explored sufficiently for viewers to understand how his mind works.
Being able to anticipate one's actions does not mean that they have character development, it simply means that they are a consistent person who is easy to understand, and for the most part he is that. The fact that he has not changed since Dragon Ball, as well as the fact that the other characters rarely change as part of the main story does suggest a plot driven show, as in the story is driven by events happening, rather than our characters being central to that.

And I would actually argue that his thought process and beliefs haven't actually been explored in all that much depth, occasionally we get something about the next generation, or that he brings danger, or he doesn't care about Freeza after he beat him, but those thoughts and values aren't a main focus of the story, fighting the bad guy, be it Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, etc., is the main focus of the story. I guess as an example, Captain America Civil War is a character driven show with a main character who doesn't change much, dealing with his relationship to Bucky and Tony Stark, though I would argue the first movie was more plot driven in comparison. Superman vs the Elite is also deeply character driven, and Superman doesn't change one bit in that, and in fact his steadfast adherence to his values is justified at the end, but it's still character driven because it turns entirely on Superman's mind set and his opposition to the Elite. There would be no story if Superman wasn't the character he was. To put it another way, how many story arcs rely on Goku's inner thoughts specifically? The height of the show in terms of being character driven, was easily Majin Vegeta during the buu saga, as these were choices made by a character in the show who then developed in various ways, Goku meanwhile is more or less a vehicle (if one with a clearly defined personality that we can root for and understand) to get us from place to place, fight to fight, and exciting moment to exciting moment.

And I'll say once again, you can have well defined characters, but if said character doesn't drive the plot and story, then it's not a character driven story. Very little of the story actually requires exploring the inner thoughts, ideas, and emotions of Goku, they all rely more on the villain and various moments within the plot. I mean just look at frankly all the story arcs within Dragon Ball, aside from literally the first arc (which was more of a plot driven treasure hunt for the balls than an exploration of say, Bulma's character). That's not to say this is a bad thing by any means I also want to say, because I know people get it confused and character driven stories are popular, plot driven is not bad.

As an example, the excellent Uncharted games are generally driven by plot (two for example was built entirely to lead up to the snowy train level iirc), even if it can kind of mix the two occasionally. The Twilight Zone is by definition a plot driven show, as well as Kino's Journey, all of which tell stories who's main hook, who's driving force is ultimately the story they want to tell, rather than the inner workings of their protagonists (of which Twilight Zone outright doesn't have from episode to episode).
Edited by Tinny, May 2 2018, 01:36 AM.
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Dragon Ball Z is plot-driven with characters developing along the way. But truly it's not much of a plot to have a new villain show up every once in a while.
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
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Tinny
May 2 2018, 01:32 AM
TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
Apr 30 2018, 11:19 PM
Tinny
Apr 30 2018, 01:58 AM


Goku doesn't change, and arguably has had the least character development out of all the main characters
Character development isn't the same as a character changing. Goku is one of the most developed characters of the series, even though he barely changes from the age of 12 until the end of Z. He's developed, in the sense that the audience is able to anticipate how he would think and act in different situations, because his thought process and beliefs have been explored sufficiently for viewers to understand how his mind works.
Being able to anticipate one's actions does not mean that they have character development, it simply means that they are a consistent person who is easy to understand, and for the most part he is that. The fact that he has not changed since Dragon Ball, as well as the fact that the other characters rarely change as part of the main story does suggest a plot driven show, as in the story is driven by events happening, rather than our characters being central to that.

And I would actually argue that his thought process and beliefs haven't actually been explored in all that much depth, occasionally we get something about the next generation, or that he brings danger, or he doesn't care about Freeza after he beat him, but those thoughts and values aren't a main focus of the story, fighting the bad guy, be it Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, etc., is the main focus of the story. I guess as an example, Captain America Civil War is a character driven show with a main character who doesn't change much, dealing with his relationship to Bucky and Tony Stark, though I would argue the first movie was more plot driven in comparison. Superman vs the Elite is also deeply character driven, and Superman doesn't change one bit in that, and in fact his steadfast adherence to his values is justified at the end, but it's still character driven because it turns entirely on Superman's mind set and his opposition to the Elite. There would be no story if Superman wasn't the character he was. To put it another way, how many story arcs rely on Goku's inner thoughts specifically? The height of the show in terms of being character driven, was easily Majin Vegeta during the buu saga, as these were choices made by a character in the show who then developed in various ways, Goku meanwhile is more or less a vehicle (if one with a clearly defined personality that we can root for and understand) to get us from place to place, fight to fight, and exciting moment to exciting moment.

And I'll say once again, you can have well defined characters, but if said character doesn't drive the plot and story, then it's not a character driven story. Very little of the story actually requires exploring the inner thoughts, ideas, and emotions of Goku, they all rely more on the villain and various moments within the plot. I mean just look at frankly all the story arcs within Dragon Ball, aside from literally the first arc (which was more of a plot driven treasure hunt for the balls than an exploration of say, Bulma's character). That's not to say this is a bad thing by any means I also want to say, because I know people get it confused and character driven stories are popular, plot driven is not bad.

As an example, the excellent Uncharted games are generally driven by plot (two for example was built entirely to lead up to the snowy train level iirc), even if it can kind of mix the two occasionally. The Twilight Zone is by definition a plot driven show, as well as Kino's Journey, all of which tell stories who's main hook, who's driving force is ultimately the story they want to tell, rather than the inner workings of their protagonists (of which Twilight Zone outright doesn't have from episode to episode).
If being able to anticipate actions is a part of character development. The other part is being able to understand why a character has acted how they have in a work of fiction.

If Goku wasn't driven to be the strongest, the plot would have all stopped because he would't be strong enough. No going after the RR Army. If he wasn't driven to revive his friends, they arguably wouldn't have gone to Namek. I know these are quite standard and uncomplicated examples of a character's personality's impact on a series though. I'm not arguing that it is a character-driven series anyway though, just that Goku is about as well-developed as other characters in the series, even if his character isn't as complicated and hasn't changed much.

Aside from his animalistic obsession with being the strongest fighter for the sake of it and generally caring about his friends he does have nuances to his character. After all their training, he has a particularly close relationship with Krillin, which was shown in his reactions to Krillin's deaths and in the way he places trust in Krillin by asking him to do things and often refers to groups as "Krillin and the others". He's shown that he has pride over being from Earth and puts this ahead of him being a saiyan and at times struggles with the idea of him being an alien, especially since the saiyans' attitude towards others is so different from his own. He understands that he's been selfish and apologises to Chi Chi at the end of the Cell Games.
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TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
May 7 2018, 02:25 AM
Tinny
May 2 2018, 01:32 AM
TrunksinSwimmingTrunks
Apr 30 2018, 11:19 PM
Tinny
Apr 30 2018, 01:58 AM


Goku doesn't change, and arguably has had the least character development out of all the main characters
Character development isn't the same as a character changing. Goku is one of the most developed characters of the series, even though he barely changes from the age of 12 until the end of Z. He's developed, in the sense that the audience is able to anticipate how he would think and act in different situations, because his thought process and beliefs have been explored sufficiently for viewers to understand how his mind works.
Being able to anticipate one's actions does not mean that they have character development, it simply means that they are a consistent person who is easy to understand, and for the most part he is that. The fact that he has not changed since Dragon Ball, as well as the fact that the other characters rarely change as part of the main story does suggest a plot driven show, as in the story is driven by events happening, rather than our characters being central to that.

And I would actually argue that his thought process and beliefs haven't actually been explored in all that much depth, occasionally we get something about the next generation, or that he brings danger, or he doesn't care about Freeza after he beat him, but those thoughts and values aren't a main focus of the story, fighting the bad guy, be it Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, etc., is the main focus of the story. I guess as an example, Captain America Civil War is a character driven show with a main character who doesn't change much, dealing with his relationship to Bucky and Tony Stark, though I would argue the first movie was more plot driven in comparison. Superman vs the Elite is also deeply character driven, and Superman doesn't change one bit in that, and in fact his steadfast adherence to his values is justified at the end, but it's still character driven because it turns entirely on Superman's mind set and his opposition to the Elite. There would be no story if Superman wasn't the character he was. To put it another way, how many story arcs rely on Goku's inner thoughts specifically? The height of the show in terms of being character driven, was easily Majin Vegeta during the buu saga, as these were choices made by a character in the show who then developed in various ways, Goku meanwhile is more or less a vehicle (if one with a clearly defined personality that we can root for and understand) to get us from place to place, fight to fight, and exciting moment to exciting moment.

And I'll say once again, you can have well defined characters, but if said character doesn't drive the plot and story, then it's not a character driven story. Very little of the story actually requires exploring the inner thoughts, ideas, and emotions of Goku, they all rely more on the villain and various moments within the plot. I mean just look at frankly all the story arcs within Dragon Ball, aside from literally the first arc (which was more of a plot driven treasure hunt for the balls than an exploration of say, Bulma's character). That's not to say this is a bad thing by any means I also want to say, because I know people get it confused and character driven stories are popular, plot driven is not bad.

As an example, the excellent Uncharted games are generally driven by plot (two for example was built entirely to lead up to the snowy train level iirc), even if it can kind of mix the two occasionally. The Twilight Zone is by definition a plot driven show, as well as Kino's Journey, all of which tell stories who's main hook, who's driving force is ultimately the story they want to tell, rather than the inner workings of their protagonists (of which Twilight Zone outright doesn't have from episode to episode).
If being able to anticipate actions is a part of character development. The other part is being able to understand why a character has acted how they have in a work of fiction.

If Goku wasn't driven to be the strongest, the plot would have all stopped because he would't be strong enough. No going after the RR Army. If he wasn't driven to revive his friends, they arguably wouldn't have gone to Namek. I know these are quite standard and uncomplicated examples of a character's personality's impact on a series though. I'm not arguing that it is a character-driven series anyway though, just that Goku is about as well-developed as other characters in the series, even if his character isn't as complicated and hasn't changed much.

Aside from his animalistic obsession with being the strongest fighter for the sake of it and generally caring about his friends he does have nuances to his character. After all their training, he has a particularly close relationship with Krillin, which was shown in his reactions to Krillin's deaths and in the way he places trust in Krillin by asking him to do things and often refers to groups as "Krillin and the others". He's shown that he has pride over being from Earth and puts this ahead of him being a saiyan and at times struggles with the idea of him being an alien, especially since the saiyans' attitude towards others is so different from his own. He understands that he's been selfish and apologises to Chi Chi at the end of the Cell Games.
Neither of those things make a story character driven, all that means is that they write characters, by this measure one could argue the twilight zone is a character driven show, after all, we immediately understand why a character acts how they do, and are often able to anticipate their actions within the plot. However, I think it's fair to say there isn't a single part of the Twilight Zone that is not chiefly driven by it's plot and themes, far more so than it's the characters who often only show up for one episode doing so certainly.

Regarding Goku, no, absolutely not, plenty of characters get far more development than Goku, even if it begins as fairly minor stuff. Yamcha for example starts out as a bandit, then falls in love with Bulma realizing he never needed the dragon balls, then goes off, eventually becomes a baseball player, and eventually returns to the desert. Gohan you can argue isn't all that consistent but he's had to change and grow multiple times, and it's not at all hard to attempt at justifying why Gohan acts the way he does at multiple points, from being forced to fight against evil as a child, wanting to be a pacifist during Cell, then a super hero during the boo arc, then a scholar, then seeing how weak he's become repeatedly and deciding to train again in Super. Tien has had to grow from a savage martial artist who only seeks power and wants to be like Mercenary Tao, to a genuinely enlightened person who makes up for past mistakes, and eventually even founds his own dojo (and Dragon Ball honestly really disliked him). Krillin has had to grow past his fears at multiple points in DBS, Roshi getting over his perversion, Bulma going from a bratty teenager who wanted to find a boyfriend to finding out that said boyfriend was right beside her the whole time.

To call any of them less developed than Goku is simply false. They've had personalities that change and grow, but Goku stays in one place, stays static. The only thing that can really be argued to be real growth on his part would be him leaving Earth because he posed a threat, and even that was undone. This is someone who in a rage after Krillin dies, goes after King Piccolo, then loses because he got hungry, a gag from all the way back to when Yamcha was fighting him.

This comes into even sharper focus when you focus on the deuteragonists, I don't think anyone can argue Goku has had more development than the likes of Tien, Gohan, Piccolo, and Vegeta. He is one of the least developped characters, he changes the least and has the least depth to his character, even similarly static characters like Beerus have still more depth to them and have undergone more growth in their time on screen (barring Whis really). Goku isn't an awful character by any means, but it's more than fair to say that out of the main cast, he receives the less growth than most, if not almost all of them. The closest characters I can think that lack his growth but have major parts are Gotenks and Chaouzu, just about everyone else has something more knocking around in the noggin. Goku's moments are extremely minor and the moments they truly play a part in the story are rare.
Edited by Tinny, May 7 2018, 03:33 AM.
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