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| Transgender children | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 9 2018, 02:19 AM (3,406 Views) | |
| Ice | Mar 9 2018, 09:00 PM Post #16 |
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Also, studies show 70% to 80% of children who expressed transgender feelings spontaneoulsy lost them over time. Source: ://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change Edited by Ice, Mar 9 2018, 09:03 PM.
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| Tinny | Mar 9 2018, 09:32 PM Post #17 |
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I clicked on the link and I was immediately shown this
I will confess, when I read this one line, I got angry. Probably should have read the link instead of copy pasting but all the same I was surprised when I saw the page, and go angry. I got angry because this site just told me that I have a mental disorder merely because I am genderfluid. Now I have decided to take a further look at the site besides this and these are my initial findings... "L. Brent Bozell: Squashing Free Spech on campus" in the commentary "Clorox Okay with Advertising on Show That Preaches Anti-Christian Bigotry" was on "National." Further more I find the way this is worded suspicious, while it's likely Dr. McHugh knows what he is doing, specifically this.
So... What's going on with this paragraph anyway? It seems to specifically quote the man at "spontaneously lost those feelings" but no where else? Why not include the whole quote if 70-80% do in fact lose those feelings? Perhaps it's the fact that it called me mentally ill, along with various commentators which seem to be full of stuff like, and I shall quote once again. "Sex Reassignment Doesn't work" by Ryan T. Anderson, "What you need to know about Trump's Tariffs" by Dan Celia, "Time to ditch OBama-Era 'Clean Water Rule' by Darent Bakst, "Philadelphia Soda Tax Is loSIng its Fizz, and finally "CNN Series on Papacy Debuts this Sunday" by Bill Donohue, the last on in particular blasts CNN from inviting an Anthea Butler who apparently at one point or another called God a "White Racist", and overall shows a dismissal of CNN saying stuff like
Basically Tsuki, what I'm saying is... I don't trust this site you've linked me, if you can find the study more directly or by another site, I'll take a closer look at it, but until then this site feels like it has a very particular agenda to me. I mean just look at this ![]() ![]() No offense, but I have no reason to believe them as of right now, the way they cite it seems suspicious, they're clearly very rightwing, that web page you linked literally called it a mental disorder, and they literally have a grassroots politic thing fighting against quote "Anti-Christian bigotry in the media" I should add the deeply christian people of this country have historically been slow to accept trans rights. The entire article paints a clear picture as such: Transgenderism is not normal. Dr. McHugh apparently (since my trust is basically at 0 with them, I would not be surprised if this was out of context) says that The underlinedparts are my emphasis. It's basically saying that trans people aren't real and are confused. Not just children, all transgendered people. And that's me taking them at their word, which I'm not at this point. I don't trust your source. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that they are giving out the truth, especially all the wierd quotations in wierd places like quoting "assumption" but not "in the person's" that is right before or "that they are different than the physical reality of their body" that is right after, it smells fishy to me and I feel like I'm reading what is at best incompetently written and at worst propaganda or even outright misinformation. Also I apologize in advance if I'm wrong, this is basically a guess, this looked pretty niche to just find randomly. But is this how you came across the site by chance? ![]() If this is how, or is similar to how (and this is a shot in the dark essentially) I can say this right now. I am genderfluid, basically it means my gender fluctuates from time to time, sometimes I feel like a man, other times like a woman. Essentially, I am transgender, I fit under that same umbrella. I do not have a mental disorder, and I hope in the future that this doesn't impact our interactions with each other. Edited by Tinny, Mar 9 2018, 10:20 PM.
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| Ice | Mar 9 2018, 10:56 PM Post #18 |
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The article was mentioned in this video. (Don't watch it though cuz it will probably make you really mad.) https://youtu.be/aiBzaN3uuik Also, i have nothing against trans people Edited by Ice, Mar 9 2018, 10:57 PM.
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| Tinny | Mar 9 2018, 11:07 PM Post #19 |
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It's more that I wasn't expecting something calling me mentally ill out the gate, now I have a bit of prep, as for Hunter Avellone guy, I have to say... Well ![]() You can probably see why I'm skeptical of him as well. He is clearly a very right wing kind of person, simply using the language he does, casually referring to the left as "left wing hypocrits" if it's alright with you, I'd like to cite a counterexample to this. This is contrapoints, she is a very left-wing youtuber who tackles a lot of political conflict, but these two videos I feel are particularly helpful to explaining it. Contrapoints uses a lot of dark and crazy humor, but overall I would say she's. Also skip the first 40 seconds of the What is Gender video if you're sensitive to seizure inducing stuff, the video itself immediately starts with a seizure warning but I figured I should say it here as well. I realize this probalby disagrees with a lot of what you think coming into this, but for that reason I think it'd be rather nice if you did watch and consider them, especially with the consideration that I am genderqueer myself. Edit: minor critiques on his video mostly Also regarding the whole "gender is not a social construct" as if social constructs are flimsy I'd like to correct this. Money is also social construct, and I'm sure we're all well aware at how much that can effect our lives. just a minor thing to critique. Gravity is also a theory, theories are essentially hypothesis that have withstood all attempts to disprove them so far. He also brings up the slippery slope argument, which is a fallacy. And he brought up the bathroom idea. I will say that the sex sign at a bathroom will not stop anyone who is planning to rape someone in a public restroom. To be perfectly honest... It kind of feels like this Hunter guy is putting his feelings over the reality of the situation. I realize that's a bit of a No U argument but the video isn't exactly academic, even compared to Contrapoints' own more wacky videos. Edited by Tinny, Mar 9 2018, 11:14 PM.
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| Ice | Mar 9 2018, 11:15 PM Post #20 |
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I'll watch them later cuz i have to get ready for work |
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| Ice | Mar 10 2018, 07:31 PM Post #21 |
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I just watched them. -Nonbinary,androgyne, and bigender arent a thing. The definition of gender is "the state of being male or female" You cant be genderless, something in between or both genders simultaneously. -Being intersex is a deformity. It doesnt warrant its own special category. Definition of sex " either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions) Edited by Ice, Mar 10 2018, 09:06 PM.
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| Tinny | Mar 10 2018, 09:43 PM Post #22 |
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I feel the need to point out that non-binary essentially means the entire umbrella of Genderqueer, to quote the wikipedia article
The underlined part is mine and is me, I believe I can safety assume you are not saying that I don't exist and that I'm lying, so I'll simply ask what exactly I should say in regards to my experience regarding my gender. Genderfluid describes me. androgyne also falls under this issue as again, genderfluid does fall under the androgyne umbrella. Bigender does not describe me, but I feel it's also worth bringing up the question there, for those who feel this change from feeling like a man to feeling like a woman much more extremely for anywhere from hours to years, what term would you use to describe this phenomena? There various cultures which explicitly include third genders that take from both, including native american third genders, in particular would be of note the term "Two-spirit" used to replace the previous term known as Berdache which at that point had been seen as a slur here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit Further more I do have to question what you mean by deformity, are you saying that they are misshapen individuals? Looking at the definition on google I came across
So I do have to question what exactly you mean by "deformed." And especially why you call it such a charged word as deformity which brings to mind the image of the hunchback of notradame, or the Joseph "Elephant Man" Merrick ![]() Certainly not an image like below ![]() They don't look particularly deformed to me, and more to point, regarding deformity as a problem, I would point out that conservative estimates put intersex in about 1 in 2000, or .05% (this refers to ambiguous genitalia) taking in more various traits this increases to about 1.7% in intersex babies born, for comparison, redheads make about 2% of the population. Calling it a deformity seems somewhat odd when we consider they number almost as much as people with red hair. it's a 1.5-0.5% difference in population within America. I should note I got these numbers (except for the read statistic which was just googling it) from Intersexequality.com https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/ I would also draw to this webpage where I got that image of the protesters from. http://southfloridagaynews.com/Community/what-it-means-to-be-intersex.html Yes it's from South Florida Gay News, but at the same time I feel that they should be able to speak for themselves on the issue of their existence. In particular, in considering it a deformity many people have been forced to live as the opposite sex through no say of their own, here's a few accounts I'd like to pick out in specific.
Even more so I'm sure you'll recall David Reimer that I brought up a while back, who's penis was burned off, and then was forced to live as a girl. Again, even if they technically count as such, using suched charged language suggests the kind of mindset that has quite amazingly forced them to become men/women literally trapped within a woman/man's body. And hell, going back the earlier question of this thread... These Children should be able to just live, instead of being told they are deformed like they're the Hunchback of Notradame. Further more I feel using dictionary definitions as a be all end all is a bit of a weak argument, dictionaries to not impose upon us the use of language, they keep track of how it is used, this is how you get stuff like this. ![]() I know it sounds silly, but we do in fact use literally like that, and any dictionary worth using will catalog all these uses, because it is mean to teach how language is used, not impose what it should be. More to the point sex is rarely determined merely by whether one produces sperm or egg cells, for relatively obvious reasons, namely that you can't tell, certainly not in polite society where everyone is wearing clothes to cover up genitalia. And more to the point, efforts of Surgeons to "fix the deformities" as too many people think of it end up hurting those very people it was supposed to fix, again to go back to that webpage from South Florida Gay News He is an advocate for not performing surgery on these children until the Children are old enough to decide what they want (which should sound familiar considering why this thread started in the first place )And no offense, but if that is the case, what am I? I literally switch between them every so often that is how I feel which one I am. I would not call myself wishy washy, I am quite sure of where I am, and what I am like, and have been for a while now, and it is genderfluid. In addition, I feel wikipedia gives a more complete idea of what gender means these days than the google definition. It is as follows
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| Ice | Mar 10 2018, 11:05 PM Post #23 |
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My bad. i should have used the term "birth defect". And I dont really know how i feel about the genderfluid thing because i havent looked into it.
Edited by Ice, Mar 10 2018, 11:10 PM.
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| Tinny | Mar 10 2018, 11:16 PM Post #24 |
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That still overall has the same, if to a lesser degree, stigma though wouldn't it? Especially in regards to how often surgeries are done to get rid of them. I can get it being considered as such in a medical context, but often treating such defects only ends up requiring more treatment to treat the effects of the treatment. That's hardly good is it? And you can ask me, I am genderfluid, it's quite simple. Sometimes I am a man, other times a woman, there's nothing more to it really. Edited by Tinny, Mar 10 2018, 11:17 PM.
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| Ice | Mar 12 2018, 07:10 PM Post #25 |
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I know what it is. I just wasn't sure if it was legitimate or not. Anyways, there's a medical term that explains it, "Childhood Gender-Switching". It is a phenomenon documented by psychologists where "a child will take on or adopt the role of a different gender. (similar to roleplaying) It's usually a phase that you outgrow, but not always". Source: https://youtu.be/ilw5LVOM7cA (skip to 4:00) Edited by Ice, Mar 13 2018, 08:10 PM.
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Mar 14 2018, 04:50 PM Post #26 |
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Absolutely not. Kids can't be trusted to make such a big decision even if it's their own body |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Mar 14 2018, 05:25 PM Post #27 |
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I don't want to come off as rude here but I'm genuinely curious about this. If someone thinks they're opposite then doesn't that mean something is wrong? That's obviously not normal so why are people against calling it a mental disorder? I mean obviously nobody wants to be told they have a mental disorder but by definition shouldn't it be a mental disorder?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Mar 14 2018, 05:26 PM.
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| * Mitas | Mar 14 2018, 05:36 PM Post #28 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Because there is some argument and evidence that it is physiological, in which case calling it a mental disorder would be inaccurate. Although you are right, it is a disorder of some kind. Also, regarding intersex being a deformity, there's no argument. It is one, in the same way that being born with an extra toe, finger, or any other body part is a deformity. There doesn't have to be a negative connotation attached to it, unless it negatively impacts a person's life. Even then, the connotation is 'oh, it's unfortunate for that to happen to a person'. |
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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| Tinny | Mar 14 2018, 11:27 PM Post #29 |
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There are almost as many intersex people as there are people with red hair, but somehow I doubt anyone would appreciate it if you started going around calling red hair a deformity. You say it's the same as having another tone, overall in the industry there is a large tendency to view this as some awful thing that you have to fix and parents will be often pushed into this with fear inducing statements about it, rather than simply telling them as it is, that their genitals are different, and that there is a specific term, against calling these things deformities because people's bodies are modified without their consent by parents who are being fear mongered into doing so.
When it gets bad, it is called Gender dysphoria, and Gender Dysphoria generally refers to the acute distress people face from this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria Not all people have it, but some do, and it's common enough. Also regarding that, I do have to ask why that matters so much when children are instead forced into medical procedures which cost them greatly, often requiring later medical help to aide in problems that stem entirely from surgeries done on them by medical professionals, often at the behest of scared parents who have likely had their fears stoked by the doctor, who often suggests surgery as a way to "ensure they have normal lives." And Vegito, I've already posted one particular case of a man realizing they were literally trapped in the wrong body. David Reimer.
Regarding that, it should be simple enough to tell in that case who simply does it for fun, and who feels a sense of distress from it right? Gender identity disorder does bring real tangible stress to them. Self-mutilation, depression, stress, more prone to anxiety, things like that as the man in the video puts it. It should be easy enough to tell, especially for a trained medical professional, if they have GID or if they're simply roleplaying it right? Unless I am misunderstanding the post lol, in which case I blame my own delay to responding to this. Actually this guy even discusses the sexual reassignment surgery that does happen to certain babies, like girls who's vulva are too large, a boy who's penis is to small (yes these have been counted as intersex, and unfortunately operated on as if they were intersex I wish I were joking), or genuinely intersex genitals which are covered up in surgery. I guess I'm harping on a lot about it, but I do consider this a major problem, it's a disgusting thing that happens precisely because of the public's attitudes towards these "deformed" "birth defect" etc genitalia, which often result in operations being done on them that ends up creating lasting harm that requires medical attention for that very surgery. This is at the core of my issue with the labeling of these things, it's not just semantics this effects people's lives, scholarly fields can use whatever term because they're gonna be used by professionals who understand the nuances, all a normal person will think with "deformity" is the Elephant Man. Edited by Tinny, Mar 14 2018, 11:28 PM.
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| * Mitas | Mar 15 2018, 08:13 AM Post #30 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Red hair is caused by a genetic mutation and is accompanied by increased health risks in certain areas (skin cancer being one of them). It is also a defect/deformity and one that, like others, people are often bullied and ridiculed for having. Like I said, whether these things are defects or not is not up for debate. Edit: But again, like I said, I don't believe it has to be a bad thing or that people should be treated differently because of it. It just is what it is. I think it's more helpful to have people accept things as they are, rather than try to avoid it and dress it up. If you teach people to avoid terminology then you're teaching them to fear it. The same way that nobody is ever ugly and everyone is beautiful. If looks truly don't matter, then saying 'everybody is beautiful' is backwards because you're still placing value on appearance and the people who are ugly still feel bad because they know it's not true. Teach them that it's OK if they aren't attractive. Edited by Mitas, Mar 15 2018, 08:42 AM.
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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