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Two School Shooting today's
Topic Started: Feb 15 2018, 01:39 AM (5,116 Views)
Hurdan
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Steve
Mar 8 2018, 03:41 PM
That's in regard to gun crime in general, Emiya said most mass shooters have guns legally, which is true. All these people shooting up schools do it with weapons they're lawfully allowed to have or were given with no regard to the law because not all gun store operators can be trusted, clearly.


Maybe general gun crime won't go down much for years, gang fights and all that s***.
But those people at least have the decency to kill each other most of the time, they won't all just randomly decide "Let's go murder children now!" they shoot each other for completely different reasons and at least have some element of morality, I doubt most of them would happily slay dozens of children even if they are f***ed up.

And that still doesn't change the fact that gun crime goes down everywhere gun control is put in place, it just doesn't happen instantly.


Of course illegal guns will still be around but...that's also an issue worth cracking down on?
It's not like regulations have to be put in place and then the US has to just go "Kay we're done now, crime is fixed forever"

Though with a largely incompetent police force it'd probably be best to train them up first.
Okay, your mass shooting might have a point. But definitely no school shooters have their guns legally, they're minors more often than not, and a minor cannot buy a gun legally. And the problem with some of mass shooters getting guns is this; some (SOME) have no bad history, no indication of any hostile intentions. They have no previous offenses. They seemingly live normal lives. Its impossible to tell, and they seemingly want a gun as any normal citizen would. However take that with a grain of salt. Some people with some mild and potentially outputting track records have obtained guns legally. Which is indeed a problem. I'd say put harsher regulations on obtaining guns. Especially pertaining to Assault Rifles. And honestly i'm not a huge fan of AR's being open to the public, I mean they are made for ASSAULT.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/more-80-percent-guns-used-mass-shootings-obtained-legally-n474441
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.047fb2187ee0
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html

Just to name a few links.

To add more to that, the usage of guns to commit crimes is greater than the usage they are for actual self defense.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/14/for-every-gun-used-in-self-defense-six-more-are-used-to-commit-a-crime/?utm_term=.2702a04bfe6d
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/19/guns-in-america-for-every-criminal-killed-in-self-defense-34-innocent-people-die/?utm_term=.0cacfc041ae0

The idea that guns are needed for self defense is practically nulled over the fact that it's barely used for self-defense in the first place.

In the end, the reason a country like Australia and so many others benefit from their regulations is simply logical aspects. When you make it harder to obtain these guns, then you make it harder to commit crimes via those weapons. when you make a ban on certain weapons, you make it harder to commit crimes with those weapons. It's much harder to commit a mass shooting and kill dozens with a handgun holding 9 rounds, then it is with an AR-15 holding 30-100 rounds.

These regulations and restrictions not only help to keep people safe but deter potential crime as well.

And in the end, countries like Australia or Canada, did not get rid of guns. There was not a wide spread campaign to get rid of every single gun in every single house and tell people to use a slingshot to protect them. Regulations and restrictions were made so that those unqualified were deterred from purchasing guns and that certain guns, such as semi-automatic weapons were banned.
Edited by EMIYA, Mar 8 2018, 05:27 PM.
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Daemon Keido
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Yes, a black market for guns exists. But can you find someone who deals in them? The only people who use black market guns are criminals who cannot legally buy a gun anymore or don't want a gun that can be traced back to them.

So yes, these laws won't stop those who blatsnt break laws anyway. But that isn't reason to not enact them.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Let's say that you can acquire a gun through these means.

1.) Retail Store
2.) Gun Show
3.) Flea Market
4.) Black Market

Now a regulation and restriction is made. Three of those options have now been cut off. So even people were still able to purchase weapons from the black market, overall, the ability to obtain guns has still been limited. The same thing happened with Prohibition. In the end, Prohibition did exactly what it wanted to do, lower the issue of alcohol related incidents. Even with illegal operations such as speakeasies being around, the overall numbers of alcohol related incidents dropped. The reason Prohibition failed wasn't because it didn't stop the issue of alcohol related incidents, it was for an entirely different reason.

And as we've seen, plenty of countries have shown us that regulations of guns have benefited them.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Daemon Keido
Mar 8 2018, 05:27 PM
Yes, a black market for guns exists. But can you find someone who deals in them? The only people who use black market guns are criminals who cannot legally buy a gun anymore or don't want a gun that can be traced back to them.

So yes, these laws won't stop those who blatsnt break laws anyway. But that isn't reason to not enact them.
This is one thing I don't get.

This always comes up, like absolutely everyone knows how to dip in to the black market and not get caught doing it?

Mass shooters are mostly normal people who descend down a path of madness, criminals with guns are usually part of their own little group, unless you're also part of that group good luck getting anything from them.

And even if that's a possibility it's still a much better barrier than
"I'd like to buy this"
"Sure"
"Kthxbai, off to go murder some peeps at a concert"


I mean really, how many 19 year old kids know how to dive in to the criminal underworld?
Being a psychopath makes you a bit unbalanced, good luck getting anywhere.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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As someone who grew up in a gang-infested city and having been friends with gangbangers and drug dealers. Most of them don't get their guns through the Black Market anyway. They buy private and buy from friends of theirs or steal guns from homeowners while they're out so it can't be traced back to them. Black Market by and large is dangerous to do in-person, and if you're using the deep corners of the internet you need to watch out as well because as it turns out, the FBI and a lot of police departments monitor those sites anyway.
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superperfectnerd
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Hurdan
Mar 8 2018, 04:52 PM
Steve
Mar 8 2018, 03:41 PM
That's in regard to gun crime in general, Emiya said most mass shooters have guns legally, which is true. All these people shooting up schools do it with weapons they're lawfully allowed to have or were given with no regard to the law because not all gun store operators can be trusted, clearly.


Maybe general gun crime won't go down much for years, gang fights and all that s***.
But those people at least have the decency to kill each other most of the time, they won't all just randomly decide "Let's go murder children now!" they shoot each other for completely different reasons and at least have some element of morality, I doubt most of them would happily slay dozens of children even if they are f***ed up.

And that still doesn't change the fact that gun crime goes down everywhere gun control is put in place, it just doesn't happen instantly.


Of course illegal guns will still be around but...that's also an issue worth cracking down on?
It's not like regulations have to be put in place and then the US has to just go "Kay we're done now, crime is fixed forever"

Though with a largely incompetent police force it'd probably be best to train them up first.
Okay, your mass shooting might have a point. But definitely no school shooters have their guns legally, they're minors more often than not, and a minor cannot buy a gun legally. And the problem with some of mass shooters getting guns is this; some (SOME) have no bad history, no indication of any hostile intentions. They have no previous offenses. They seemingly live normal lives. Its impossible to tell, and they seemingly want a gun as any normal citizen would. However take that with a grain of salt. Some people with some mild and potentially outputting track records have obtained guns legally. Which is indeed a problem. I'd say put harsher regulations on obtaining guns. Especially pertaining to Assault Rifles. And honestly i'm not a huge fan of AR's being open to the public, I mean they are made for ASSAULT.
"and they seemingly want a gun like any normal citizen would." This sentence is exactly what's baffling to the rest of the world. Why would I want a gun? Statistically I'd be more likely to turn it on myself than to ever actually need it.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Mar 8 2018, 07:12 PM.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Considering the state or complete lack of sex education over there I wonder if people value gun based protection more than sexual...food for thought.


But yeah I was going to mention these illegal guns as well, they're not just pulled out of the black market or the ether, half the time they're stolen from places or people that have them legally.

So clearly, reducing the amount of guns on the shelves would reduce the amount in circulation, criminals aren't just going to magic them out of nowhere they'll have to take even riskier trade deals and more and more of them will get caught out until the US eventually gets over it's silly obsession with guns and pretends it never happened.
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Mc Esse
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Quote:
 

And despite that one incident, the banning of assault rifles and overall gun regulations in Australia has lead not only no mass shootings, but less gun violence and suicide attempts, not just with guns but overall too. It's very clear how the effects of a proper regulation has helped not only a country like Australia but other countries as well too.


The violent crime rate has increased since 1996 in Australia. It has not in the USA, all while the population of guns was growing.

https://winteryknight.com/2017/10/06/did-australias-ban-on-guns-lower-violent-crime-rates-and-lower-suicide-rates-2/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/



And since we are on subject..

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

The Broward county PD had dispatched the deputy while the shooting was taking place. The deputy waited for 4 minutes while nick Cruz plowed through the school. Everyone was blaming the NRA, everyone was blaming the good gun owners of America for this tragedy. Guess what ?They weren’t there. This deputy was. He came into work that morning and he had one job to do and he couldn’t do it. And these are the people that were supposed to submit our protection to? Not only that but during that same time 3 other officers arrived and did nothing but wait outside their patrol cruisers. The FBI failed when they didn’t take Cruz in, on good allegations I might add. The broward county police department failed when they failed 39 times to take him in. These are the people we’re supposed to trust with our lives ? Many gun owners would have done a better job at rushing the gunmen than these guys.
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 9 2018, 12:57 AM.
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Daemon Keido
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Warmaster of Chaos

Mc Esse
Mar 9 2018, 12:55 AM
These are the people we’re supposed to trust with our lives ? Many gun owners would have done a better job at rushing the gunmen than these guys.
You have zero proof on this claim. As any actual cop and soldier will tell you, "nobody knows what they will do in a gunfigjt until the time comes. And any who claim they do know is a liar ofnthe highest order."
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Mc Esse
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https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-41382492

This mass shooting was foiled by a private citizen who was armed. He’s an usher at that church. There was also the baptist church shooting in Texas. The shooter was stopped by an armed citizen. Who lives across the street.
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 9 2018, 01:11 AM.
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Daemon Keido
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Warmaster of Chaos

You prove my point more than yours. When the time came, that man stood up. When the time came, those deputies didn't.

Has EVERY moral gun owner in the midst of a mass shooting event stood up and defended others?
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Mc Esse
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daemon .. that’s the police officers job.. that’s what he gets paid for, that’s why he has such a great pension.
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Daemon Keido
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He is paid to uphold the peace, not get in gunfights. So of course some are able to stomach it better than others. Most cops go through their entire careers without having to DRAW their guns on the job let alone fire it. Try again.
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superperfectnerd
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Mc Esse
Mar 9 2018, 01:10 AM
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-41382492

This mass shooting was foiled by a private citizen who was armed. He’s an usher at that church. There was also the baptist church shooting in Texas. The shooter was stopped by an armed citizen. Who lives across the street.
You wouldn't need somebody with a gun to stop somebody else with a gun if neither of them had guns to begin with. Most people do not want to get arrested, most guns not bought legally are stolen from somebody else who has legally acquired the gun and then used to kill. If there was no gun to steal, no problems. Most people do not have easy access or enough money to buy illegal guns on the black market and law enforcement will always be trying to prevent such things. If it's legal to buy weapons like this then they will be more plentiful and more easily obtained. It's really not that complicated to understand. We literally have data showing it work in other countries but you are so adamant it won't work you wouldn't even be willing to try tighter regulations because you want to be able to defend yourself from all of your many hypothetical enemies who apparently want to murder your entire family for some reason and can get guns or keep guns when they are illegal and easily too and you also want to be able to fight off the military if the government turns on you hypothetically and you need to destroy drones and ground to air missiles and the like? Is that the long and short of it?

Real life isn't Rambo. You're not Rambo.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Mar 9 2018, 02:43 AM.
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